New user, came to vent.

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

That does not mean that their decision to degender souls and therefore fundamentally alter the underlying lore of the novels as established by Robert Jordan did not provide them with the ability to make the choice of changing the Dragon's identity,

I mean we’re in Schroedinger’s script territory here. Who cares? What impact has this change had on the core of the story?

[expat]

1 hour ago, fearbrog said:

But it's not unimportant detail. Isn't major theme of series is Rand can't and shouldn't do everything himself. People argued reason he needs to be kneeled and saved by everyone else in s2 is reflection of that theme and reminder not to abandon his friends. And yet Egwene can do everything herself, she doesn't need to be saved from impossible trap, nothing can't handle her. Two protagonists are learning completely different lessons. Overall context is Rand useless without others, Egwene perfectly fine without others.

 

WTF man.  I was addressing a specific scene you asked me about.  So without discussing the points I tried to raise, you jumped to another scene you didn't like.  

 

To make it easier, the point I raised was that there are two ways to view the series, one from a more holistic viewpoint where the overriding concepts are more important than the exact actions taken to get there and the second to value the actions as discrete points in their own right.  Neither is objectively correct and is based on individual interpretations of what an adaptation should be.  Based on the discussion, it seems I am more interested in the big picture and willing to give the showrunners the benefit of the doubt on the small details and you are the opposite.  You are more interested in the small details and really want to see them on screen.  

 

Given the difficulties of the adaptation, you will likely be continually disappointed.

[DigificWriter]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

I mean we’re in Schroedinger’s script territory here. Who cares? What impact has this change had on the core of the story?

 

The first thing it did is that it directly shaped the way that the early episodes of Season 1 were written with regards to Moiraine's search for the Dragon Reborn and Egwene, Perrin, Mat, and Nynaeve's individual stories played themselves out.

.

Second, it allowed them to add depth to Egwene's character by including the detail about her love for the Travels of Jain Farstrider being rooted in and influenced by a belief on her part that she was Jain Farstrider reincarnated.

 

Third, it provided them with the ability to have both male and female figures represent Logain's madness and reinforce his belief that he was the Dragon Reborn and that he was hearing the voices of his previous lives.

 

Fourth, it gave them an avenue by which they could adapt to Barney Harris' departure and the ripple effect that it created by making it impossible for Mat's storyline to remain as it was in the books by having him experience hallucinations/visions that could be described as being related to his past lives and include both male and female characters.

[Elder_Haman]

37 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

The first thing it did is that it directly shaped the way that the early episodes of Season 1 were written with regards to Moiraine's search for the Dragon Reborn and Egwene, Perrin, Mat, and Nynaeve's individual stories played themselves out.

.

Second, it allowed them to add depth to Egwene's character by including the detail about her love for the Travels of Jain Farstrider being rooted in and influenced by a belief on her part that she was Jain Farstrider reincarnated.

 

Third, it provided them with the ability to have both male and female figures represent Logain's madness and reinforce his belief that he was the Dragon Reborn and that he was hearing the voices of his previous lives.

 

Fourth, it gave them an avenue by which they could adapt to Barney Harris' departure and the ripple effect that it created by making it impossible for Mat's storyline to remain as it was in the books by having him experience hallucinations/visions that could be described as being related to his past lives and include both male and female characters.

You’re reaching. None of those things are important. They’re flavor. 

[DojoToad]

12 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

We do. It gives them plot armor and plays into fantasy tropes. It’s far better writing to play into the which way will he go, save the world or destroy it aspect of the Dragon. It allows you to build tension between Rand and his friends and his friends between one another - something Rand often plays to his advantage throughout the books. 

 

How do we know which way he will go when he isn't getting the screen time?  Framing the protagonist through the eyes of other characters works for a couple chapters/episodes, but I'd think you'd want it from the horse's mouth at some point.

 

12 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

He’s had some cool moments. He will get more. Keeping him nerfed for a bit also helps with power creep. 

 

But not nerfing Nynaeve and Egwene accomplishes what?

 

12 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

Yes. In service of better storytelling in a visual medium. 

I can understand the protagonist not being the focus for an episode or three, but for two entire seasons?  Unless the Dragon is not the protagonist and is just another tool for Moiraine (the true protagonist) to use...  If Rand is the protagonist (and not 'just' the Dragon) it's a pretty risky move to wait until S3 for him to get his season.  Especially with the drop off in viewership between S1 and S2 - according to our AI Overlords.  😁

 

Edited yesterday at 12:29 PM by DojoToad

[DojoToad]

10 hours ago, expat said:

WTF man.  I was addressing a specific scene you asked me about.  So without discussing the points I tried to raise, you jumped to another scene you didn't like.  

 

To make it easier, the point I raised was that there are two ways to view the series, one from a more holistic viewpoint where the overriding concepts are more important than the exact actions taken to get there and the second to value the actions as discrete points in their own right.  Neither is objectively correct and is based on individual interpretations of what an adaptation should be.  Based on the discussion, it seems I am more interested in the big picture and willing to give the showrunners the benefit of the doubt on the small details and you are the opposite.  You are more interested in the small details and really want to see them on screen.  

 

Given the difficulties of the adaptation, you will likely be continually disappointed.

True that.  There will be many small details missed.  The 14-book series was long and rich (and often repetitive).  There is no way everyone's favorite details are making it to the screen no matter how many episodes and seasons they get.  Adaptations are tough, and people have different scenes they consider important or their favorite.

 

Rafe is a professional in the entertainment industry and I assume he wants to continue down that path.  If that is the case, he is doing the best job he can.  I think he is making many mistakes, but I'm only an entertainment consumer.  Someone else might have been more capable and made a better show from my perspective, but Rafe is who we have and his vision (influenced by execs) is the product. S3 is soon...

[Elder_Haman]

4 hours ago, DojoToad said:

 

How do we know which way he will go when he isn't getting the screen time?  Framing the protagonist through the eyes of other characters works for a couple chapters/episodes, but I'd think you'd want it from the horse's mouth at some point.

 

 

But not nerfing Nynaeve and Egwene accomplishes what?

 

I can understand the protagonist not being the focus for an episode or three, but for two entire seasons?  Unless the Dragon is not the protagonist and is just another tool for Moiraine (the true protagonist) to use...  If Rand is the protagonist (and not 'just' the Dragon) it's a pretty risky move to wait until S3 for him to get his season.  Especially with the drop off in viewership between S1 and S2 - according to our AI Overlords.  😁

 

All of these are good points and I don’t necessarily disagree with any of them. It’s one of the reasons I think the “Who is the Dragon” plot was such a bad idea. 
 

But nonetheless, there is some merit in trying to make the show from the POVs of those around Rand rather than Rand himself. The execution has been … uneven. 
 

I think Nyn needed her huge moment as a vehicle for showing both her strength and the consequences of her block. But again, I think it was poorly executed. 
 

Eggy and Rand seem to be on similar growth paths. Both earned good moments at the end. 

[driftnet]

7 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Especially with the drop off in viewership between S1 and S2 - according to our AI Overlords.  😁

 

"AI" knows English words and the order in which they are likely to appear. That's it. I don't care about the show one way or another, and this may be correct. But you can get completely confident and 100% wrong answers from AI all day long. It's not even interesting as a curiosity.

[fearbrog]

15 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Eggy and Rand seem to be on similar growth paths. Both earned good moments at the end. 

Egwene was siphoned so much Power  that everyone around her dies to defeat countless trollocs and still managed to perform the biggest healing miracle, bigger than anything in books. Rand got tricked by Ishy. S1 ends with Egwene's triumph and Rand's failure.

In s2 she breaks from impossible situation and goes toe to toe with Ishy. Rand also got caught in impossible situation, twice, and both times he couldn't do anything and was saved by forsaken and Moiraine and Egg. He didn't even fight Ishy, that stabbing was most anticlimactic moment i saw in long time.

How you can say they on similar growth path if Egwene uplifted from book and have more Power and better control, while Rand got downgraded and denied to do anything he did in books?

Edited 6 hours ago by fearbrog

[DojoToad]

16 hours ago, driftnet said:

"AI" knows English words and the order in which they are likely to appear. That's it. I don't care about the show one way or another, and this may be correct. But you can get completely confident and 100% wrong answers from AI all day long. It's not even interesting as a curiosity.

Not interesting to you.  I find it fascinating: is it right, wrong, irrelevant?  Just like coming here and reading comments/opinions/insights from fellow Dragonmounters.  Someday it might not be as exciting, but for me it's still new, shiny, and interesting.

[driftnet]

2 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Not interesting to you.

Fair enough. Maybe I'm just sick of working with it. 🤣