New user, came to vent.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

2 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

- In S2E2 Egwene and Elayne were talking while Nynaeve eavesdropped them. Egwene said "Where is Nynaeve when I really need her?". The finale was about that either purposely or accidentally. Yes, Nynaeve was trying to save her but was unsuccessful.

-In the books, Eg&Nyn&El and Seta(?) learn the truth about the sul'dam. It doesn't have any major plot relevance (that I recall) for the seanchan POV's we get. Who even learns about it? Even though Tuon learns it in AmoL she doesn't do anything about it. Maybe it would have had a major role in the "outrigger novels". We'll never know.

-If everything pays off the way it's supposed to, it would take away some of the tension.

-Future seasons have the option to make the sul'dam reveal have a much bigger impact than in books.

-Nynaeve trying to heal Elayne showed us the scale of her block. She will have even more reasons to (try to) get rid of it.

 

These are generally about the a'dam connection.

 

-Renna said if she dies, Egwene dies. Seta died and Nynaeve didn't. Renna lied trying to get free. This knowledge is perhaps important, perhaps not.

-Renna released Egwene somehow by removing the bracelet. It didn't happen in S2E6 when she hung it up in Egwene's cell. Is there a secret button or is it a mental thing or what? Maybe they'll figure it out somehow.

 

 

Just some thoughts.

Egwene would die if Renna died, and vice versa, because they were both each other's sul'dam. A sul'dam does not die if their damane dies.

 

Though also the plotline in the finale is confused. Nynaeve and Elayne are going to rescue Egwene from the Kennels, like the books. But the new plot has Egwene up on the tower. As long as she is complete with Renna, no one can rescue her as anything done to Renna would be twice as bad for Egwene. So Egwene must do it herself. This makes the tower the focal point of the episode.

 

But she also has to be alone with Renna. The trebuchets playing as deus ex machina is a bit lame, with no set up, no particular reason why hidden, unsighted trebuchets would hit the tower and kill everyone but Egwene and Renna. 

 

But why not repurpose Nynaeve and Elayne to clear the tower? They now have no real plot to follow, and they could have had some disaster or other that did not have the effect they wanted but did help Egwene. Or at least something other than following a dead end. They could have let Rand into the tower, or helped with the horn, or something. It seems an unnecessary compromise with the book plot to have them act as they do.

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, fra85uk said:

Yes. 

You can have cuts and still be faithful to source material as it is sanely possible.

Or you can make Luffy having sex with Nami, Zoro coming from a drunken and abusive father, Sanji freezing his made-up wife...

 

They definitely did more then just cut content. They introduced characters earlier, which means that characters met and interacted earlier then they did.
Which means that some characters were never in the same room during certain fight scenes as they were in the Manga/Anime as they were in the Live Action adaptation.

One early change is Luffy eating the Fruit. He did it accidently in front of others, not by himself and hidden.
(Change of Motivation)

The clown episode was totally different. So much so that they completely rewrote everything about that town. This is literally on the same vein as "luffy having sex with Nami or Sanji fridging his wife". Why? Because the towns people weren't kidnapped, and Mayor Boodle and Chouchou were willing to die to defend their town.

Usop's two episode adventure. "Merry" the Butler was never killed in the Manga or Anime. He actually gifted them the ship.

In the Manga/Anime, Nami's sister & village knew about her sacrifice the entire time. They knew she wasn't a traitor.

Obviously Garp never visited the Island in the Manga/Anime.

You can thank this list for all of the above points I highlighted.
https://beebom.com/one-piece-live-action-vs-anime-major-changes/#:~:text=The most substantial change in,stop from chasing his dream.

 

Those were "significant" changes to characters arcs, motivations, and story arcs.

The difference here is.

You aren't as attached to One Piece as you are as you are to Wheel of Time, so those "changes" don't cut as deep.

[RitualM]

I truly do not understand why people are defending the writing and direction of this show. 

I get that some of you are blindly happy that a wheel of time show is being made but this show is wheel of time in name only. It's so far removed from the text that it's hardly recognizable to me. So many missed opportunities and significant events, characters and information are left out that it's more of a fan fiction than an adaptation at this point. The direction is so poor, the writing so lazy.

The blatant disregard to the vision and themes of the original text is an insult to Jordan's lagecy in my eyes.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

4 minutes ago, RitualM said:

I truly do not understand why people are defending the writing and direction of this show. 

I get that some of you are blindly happy that a wheel of time show is being made but this show is wheel of time in name only. It's so far removed from the text that it's hardly recognizable to me. So many missed opportunities and significant events, characters and information are left out that it's more of a fan fiction than an adaptation at this point. The direction is so poor, the writing so lazy.

The blatant disregard to the vision and themes of the original text is an insult to Jordan's lagecy in my eyes.

I disagree with every point you make. And your blanket condemnation of the show does what? There is not anything to discuss, exactly the same if I made a post saying, wow, isn't everything so super! 

 

You are perfectly entitled to your opinion, perfectly entitled to not enjoy any aspect of the show. 

 

But what is the point of coming here and frothing at the mouth about it? You are disappointed, came to vent, have done so. And now you are going to hang about and not discuss the show, but repeatedly state your opinion and tell everyone else that they are blind and wrong? You are not the gatekeeper of Rj's legacy, you don't have to fight the unbelievers.

[Elder_Haman]

10 minutes ago, RitualM said:

I truly do not understand why people are defending the writing and direction of this show. 

I get that some of you are blindly happy that a wheel of time show is being made but this show is wheel of time in name only. It's so far removed from the text that it's hardly recognizable to me. So many missed opportunities and significant events, characters and information are left out that it's more of a fan fiction than an adaptation at this point. The direction is so poor, the writing so lazy.

The blatant disregard to the vision and themes of the original text is an insult to Jordan's lagecy in my eyes.

I truly do not understand why people are trashing the writing and direction of this show. I get that some of you are consumed by rage that the show isn't a shot for shot adaptation of the source material but the books are still there for you to read if you want to. You don't even have to watch the show, much less come onto fan sites and complain about it. The complaints you raise have been made ad nauseum since the first trailer was released and no one is changing their mind based on your repeated claims that Jordan has been insulted.

[Yamezt]

33 minutes ago, RitualM said:

I truly do not understand why people are defending the writing and direction of this show. 

I get that some of you are blindly happy that a wheel of time show is being made but this show is wheel of time in name only. It's so far removed from the text that it's hardly recognizable to me. So many missed opportunities and significant events, characters and information are left out that it's more of a fan fiction than an adaptation at this point. The direction is so poor, the writing so lazy.

The blatant disregard to the vision and themes of the original text is an insult to Jordan's lagecy in my eyes.

 

My unsolicited advice to you is to cut out the Wheel of Time TV series from your life.

 

It is far healthier than being angry. With the wealth of content now-a-days, just flit onto another. 

 

You don't get bonus points in life for being a self-martyring fan, holding the bastion of RJ's legacy for him (whom, as I discovered yesterday, RJ was the one who sold the rights anyway). 

[Mirefox]

20 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I truly do not understand why people are trashing the writing and direction of this show. I get that some of you are consumed by rage that the show isn't a shot for shot adaptation of the source material but the books are still there for you to read if you want to. You don't even have to watch the show, much less come onto fan sites and complain about it. The complaints you raise have been made ad nauseum since the first trailer was released and no one is changing their mind based on your repeated claims that Jordan has been insulted.

People trash the writing and direction of this show because it is D-Tier amateurish and the source material deserves better.  If the books were just “Twilight”-level schlock maybe more of us would be willing to roll over and praise whatever they are shoveling but many of us expect better for a higher-tier work of literature.  We wanted  Lord of the Rings and we were given Rings of Power.   Nobody is here to change your mind or to say that you can’t enjoy the show but we have every right to be critical and to argue back against complacency.

[Elder_Haman]

22 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

People trash the writing and direction of this show because it is D-Tier amateurish and the source material deserves better.  If the books were just “Twilight”-level schlock maybe more of us would be willing to roll over and praise whatever they are shoveling but many of us expect better for a higher-tier work of literature.  We wanted  Lord of the Rings and we were given Rings of Power.   Nobody is here to change your mind or to say that you can’t enjoy the show but we have every right to be critical and to argue back against complacency.

Nobody is claiming otherwise. My statement was simply parroting the surface level statement that it quoted. My statement was not conducive to discussion. The statement it quoted was not conducive to discussion. Neither is the constant repetition of your opinion (always couched as fact) that the show is "D-Tier amateurish" "'Twilight'-level schlock".

[Mailman]

7 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

Outside of scientific or historical fields of study, the term "objective analysis" is an oxymoron and does not actually exist. 

 

You cannot offer a 100% unbiased and objective review, critique, or analysis of the quality of how something is written, regardless of your level of expertise, because your analysis is informed by your own understanding and knowledge and is therefore not actually objective.

Bollocks

 

Some parts are 100% open to factual objective analysis. If you break your own established world rules that is bad writing. If you write your characters to do something that is completely against anything that character would ever do then that is bad writing.

 

Are you telling me that if Rand pulled out a rocket launcher at the start of S3 and used it to kill Egwene that we could not objectively analyze that as bad writing.

[DaddyFinn]

6 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Egwene would die if Renna died, and vice versa, because they were both each other's sul'dam. A sul'dam does not die if their damane dies.

Fair. I don't remember what happened to the damane whose sul'dam Ryma made a pretzel of. I guess she also died?

 

6 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

The trebuchets playing as deus ex machina is a bit lame, with no set up, no particular reason why hidden, unsighted trebuchets would hit the tower and kill everyone but Egwene and Renna. 

Ta'veren

[RitualM]

1 minute ago, DaddyFinn said:

Fair. I don't remember what happened to the damane whose sul'dam Ryma made a pretzel of. I guess she also died?

 

Ta'veren

Nor once in this show do they mention Ta'veren it doesn't exist.

[Elder_Haman]

5 minutes ago, RitualM said:

7 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

 

Nor once in this show do they mention Ta'veren it doesn't exist.

Other than within the first 5 minutes of the very first episode, you mean. 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Elder_Haman

[DaddyFinn]

6 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

You aren't as attached to One Piece as you are as you are to Wheel of Time, so those "changes" don't cut as deep.

This point is important. I bet we all would find countless complaints in any movie or show if we decided to analyze them half as much as WoT. I can notice some things that stand out as "weird" or could have been done "better" and still enjoy the heck out of WoT.

 

I've read the books so many times I'm not sure if I'll ever reread the whole series. There's so many issues that take away from my enjoyment. The show has already made the journey fun and interesting in a way the books were on the first few reads.

[DaddyFinn]

6 minutes ago, RitualM said:

Nor once in this show do they mention Ta'veren it doesn't exist.

S1E1 and S1E8. I'm not sure if it's mentioned in S2. I hope it will be expanded and explained more in S3

[DigificWriter]

4 hours ago, Mailman said:

If you break your own established world rules that is bad writing

 

Incorrect.

 

4 hours ago, Mailman said:

If you write your characters to do something that is completely against anything that character would ever do then that is bad writing

 

Also incorrect.

 

The author is the ultimate arbiter of how characters behave or what the 'rules' of the world are, and it may become necessary to intentionally have a character behave in a manner that is inconsistent or break the rules of the world as established in order to service the narrative. Doing so does not automatically or objectively equal 'bad' writing, nor does it objectively or automatically equal 'good' writing.

 

An objective standard of quality writing does not exist, regardless of how badly some might want to believe otherwise.

[Scarloc99]

5 hours ago, Mirefox said:

People trash the writing and direction of this show because it is D-Tier amateurish and the source material deserves better.  If the books were just “Twilight”-level schlock maybe more of us would be willing to roll over and praise whatever they are shoveling but many of us expect better for a higher-tier work of literature.  We wanted  Lord of the Rings and we were given Rings of Power.   Nobody is here to change your mind or to say that you can’t enjoy the show but we have every right to be critical and to argue back against complacency.

Ok lets be honest here, the writing in WOT is better then Twilight, but, they are not perfect works of literary genius, I would argue even in the fantasy lexicon they are not the best written books, there are moments of amazing writing, but also a load of stuff that could have. been cut, just the sheer repetition,  the various storylines that numerous readers say they dislike and would remove, the fact that RJ didn't know how many books he was going to write to start with and so the start of the story is dragged out, and lets ignore all the issues of the 3 books at the end, books that 10 years ago parts of the community largely hated for "destroying RJ's work".

 

I think any critique of Rafes writing needs to accept the reality. What RJ is great at is world building the books are higher tier level because of that, the highs are amazing (Emonds Field) but they are few and far between. I did a thread on this, why do I keep coming back despite all the flaws in the books. Now does this mean Rafe is "making the story better" personally there are aspects of season 2 I thought would have made the books better if the story had gone that way, I know others disagree and I respect that. I also do not see rafe as a "better writer" then RJ, I do think WOT would have been very very very different, especially the first 3 books, had RJ known when writing book 1 he didnt need to write a fellowship of the rings rip off, and he had 14 books to tell this story. What Rafe has the possibility to do is spread out some of the big lore drop in books 1-3 across the TV show at a better pace because he knows from day one the length of this thing. He can pace it better. 

 

We where in no way given Rings of Power, the lore in Rings of Power has been destroyed and changed to an extent that WOT has not even come close to. There is so much hysteria that is just not factually true, people insisted the power would not be gendered, it is, they insisted that souls not being gendered would be an issue, it isn't because all the characters so far are the same gender. They say that "Rand has lost his power" when in the books the power of Rand was reduced as soon as RJ realised he needed to stretch his arc out over 14 books not 3. If ROP changes where applied to WOT the breaking would have happened 30 years prior to the story, LTT would still be alive, The creator would be walking the earth. I am not exaggerating the lore of LOTR has been just removed and replaced in it's entirety so no, do not way we got ROP. We didn't even get Shinara, and this is in no way as bad as the Witcher. Those 3 

 

People are taking statements made by characters who don't have all the information as fact, they are taking half reveals and deciding they know what that means. The key lore is all still there, changes to mechanics of some of the story have been made, and by all means debate what should or should not have been cut, suggest alternative storylines if you want, but understand others will challenge back as to the flaws of that. 

 

[DWink84]

I agree. I couldn't make it through the first season. It was just bad, and hijacked by sjw ideology

[Elder_Haman]

7 minutes ago, DWink84 said:

hijacked by sjw ideology

Examples?

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, DaddyFinn said:

This point is important. I bet we all would find countless complaints in any movie or show if we decided to analyze them half as much as WoT. I can notice some things that stand out as "weird" or could have been done "better" and still enjoy the heck out of WoT.

 

I've read the books so many times I'm not sure if I'll ever reread the whole series. There's so many issues that take away from my enjoyment. The show has already made the journey fun and interesting in a way the books were on the first few reads.

Witcher may as well throw the source material out the window in a way WOT never has. 

The Expanse apparently had huge changes to the source material, but, was really really well written and so the book readers I know at least didn't mind. 

Foundation, another TV show that started unsteadily but in season 2 really came alive, and yet has almost used the books as nothing but the briefest of descriptions and story ideas it is so different. 

 I mean, look at the Marvel movies and TV shows, all of them based off source material that is 50+ years old, and yet they make wholesale changes to story and plot and seem to be able to make a few pounds (dollars) out of them, and even make some brilliant films. 

 

 

[DaddyFinn]

17 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

The Expanse apparently had huge changes to the source material, but, was really really well written and so the book readers I know at least didn't mind. 

The Expanse authors had a large role in adapting the series

[SinisterDeath]

9 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

Foundation, another TV show that started unsteadily but in season 2 really came alive, and yet has almost used the books as nothing but the briefest of descriptions and story ideas it is so different

Having read the foundation series, There's a good reasons for this.

 

1. Asimov was great at world building.

2. The bulk of the first novel was basically a collection of short generational stories, repeating similar plots of one crisis or a other and what's his face's tape recorded message playing for everyone to say "hey, I was right."

3. Asimov's technology predictions were outdated for modern audiences.

4. Asimov himself admitted he could not write women characters. So he stopped. He was shite at writing romance.

5. The foundation series 'plot' was always very "abstract" or "macro" in nature rather then "micro". It fit the theme of pyschohsitory, which is basically macrohistory/statistics on a galactic scale.

6. Having the full novels at their disposal, they would know that the Robots were involvement in the background events the entire time. Something Asimov may not have knew until he wrote the novel where he revealed that. 

 

All in all, Foundation is literally the perfect series to adapt precisely because the source has nothing worth adapting to the screen.

The stories as written would be TRASH if adapted 1:1 as a TV series. Lmao. 

 

*Note*

I still need to watch season 2 of foundation. 

[DaddyFinn]

9 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Examples?

The show has people of color and non-heterosexual people. Such a travesty! /s

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, DaddyFinn said:

The show has people of color and non-heterosexual people. Such a travesty! /s

I know, I would rather live my life sleeping through life, and worrying about walking into things because my eyes are all closed (when people come up with a buzz word like the W word, they need to consider what they are saying about people who are the opposite lol). 

[Gothic Flame]

On 10/20/2023 at 5:36 PM, RitualM said:

I truly do not understand why people are defending the writing and direction of this show. 

I get that some of you are blindly happy that a wheel of time show is being made but this show is wheel of time in name only. It's so far removed from the text that it's hardly recognizable to me. So many missed opportunities and significant events, characters and information are left out that it's more of a fan fiction than an adaptation at this point. The direction is so poor, the writing so lazy.

The blatant disregard to the vision and themes of the original text is an insult to Jordan's lagecy in my eyes.

I've declined to accept the somewhat blatant rationalizations that some make to defend what I saw in season 1 as "watchable." In any case I just ignore its existence, which is easy to do since I don't know of anyone around me, friends, family, co-workers, that watch it.

Haven't bothered with season 2...and life is good.

[fra85uk]

On 10/20/2023 at 11:10 PM, SinisterDeath said:

They definitely did more then just cut content. They introduced characters earlier, which means that characters met and interacted earlier then they did.
Which means that some characters were never in the same room during certain fight scenes as they were in the Manga/Anime as they were in the Live Action adaptation.

One early change is Luffy eating the Fruit. He did it accidently in front of others, not by himself and hidden.
(Change of Motivation)

The clown episode was totally different. So much so that they completely rewrote everything about that town. This is literally on the same vein as "luffy having sex with Nami or Sanji fridging his wife". Why? Because the towns people weren't kidnapped, and Mayor Boodle and Chouchou were willing to die to defend their town.

Usop's two episode adventure. "Merry" the Butler was never killed in the Manga or Anime. He actually gifted them the ship.

In the Manga/Anime, Nami's sister & village knew about her sacrifice the entire time. They knew she wasn't a traitor.

Obviously Garp never visited the Island in the Manga/Anime.

You can thank this list for all of the above points I highlighted.
https://beebom.com/one-piece-live-action-vs-anime-major-changes/#:~:text=The most substantial change in,stop from chasing his dream.

 

Those were "significant" changes to characters arcs, motivations, and story arcs.

The difference here is.

You aren't as attached to One Piece as you are as you are to Wheel of Time, so those "changes" don't cut as deep.

...and still it is a much more faithful adaptation than WOT will ever be because it captures the heart of  One Piece

 

As a stand-alone TV show, WOT is quite decent/watchable but it is not a faithful adaptation. They wanted too much to put a GOT object in a WOT shaped thing.

 

By the way, overall I think that the success of GOT hurted other fantasy franchises sooooooo bad.

Imagine WOT show done after the LOTR trilogy.