WoT Season 2 Episode 6: Eyes Without Pity

[DaddyFinn]

12 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

Right now in the TV show the seanchan are looking far worse then the dark lord as an option, we have not seen a darkfriend do anything even close to as horrific as the Damane, every scene of slaughter has been long after the event and war is war, people die, we have not seen the real horrors that a dark friend can carry out in the name of the dark lord, and so it is going to be really hard to rehabilitate the way the Seanchan to come across as the more noble, warrior tradition in the books. how will any Seanchan character become relatable, including Tuon, when we have seen this vicious display of open abuse. 
 

Seanchan sucked in the books and will hopefully continue to suck in the show. They are not good guys

[Scarloc99]

On 9/22/2023 at 4:29 PM, DigificWriter said:

The show has really leaned super hard into BDSM Dom/Sub territory with its depiction of the sul'dam/damane interaction, but also mixed in historical Master/Slave cruelty and dehumanization elements, which is both fascinating and horrifying.

 

Re: Liandrin, I don't remember her telling Verin that she was going to go to Caemlyn.

No, no it really hasn't and this is just wrong. 

Ok, the scenes with Egwene are plaine abuse, the act of an abusive husband who beats his wife and then tells her she deserved it, who then throws her little bits of love and affection to make her think that what he does to her is ok. It is not even how a human treats an animal, this is not how you train a dog. I do not want to get deep into it because it kind of derailed the last episodes chat, but this is as far from a BDSM relationship as you can get, a BDSM relationship is based on mutual respect, understanding, and most importantly an acceptance that the bottom is the one with the real power and control. The S type chooses to give up submission and chooses to wear the collar willingly and with full consent and knowledge and understanding. be that for a short period (a scene) or as part of a longer relationship, You don't "force" a sub to accept there position and, at any time they can walk away and end it, otherwise it crosses into something that ends up in the courts. The role of a D type is always to keep the S safe, secure, help them be the best person they can be in the way they want to be, and respect the gift they have been given. 

The Damane are not willing, consenting (even in seanchan lands, doctrine and conditioning do not lead to true consent) and are not free to leave at any point, they are not improved or "made better". 

The WOT books are full of BDSM references, the Damane and Sul Damane relationship is not one of them. 

Edit, so I should really read all the posts all the way through lol THis was picked up on and discussed but hopefully I didnt derail things again to much. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Scarloc99

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

15 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

But, there is a problem with how good these scenes are, in the books the Seanchan are, much like the white cloaks, painted as a forgivable understandable evil. The actual reality of life in slavery is glossed over, after TGH Robert Jordan wrote them to be more noble, they bring peace and make the land's they rule better, safer, more prosperous.

I would disagree, the Seanchan are troubling in the books. While a lot of the inhumanity is implied in the books, it is absolutely apparent. They are invaders, but they don't necessarily displace existing leaders, or native populations. There is no sign they are economic colonizers. They feed and protect the people far better than their own leaders were doing. Outside of the Darkfriends and the competition for political power amongst the elite, the Seanchan are an honourable people, within their own standards. Well, except for the near deification of Artur Hawkwing and the "rights" that they derive from this. But undermining all this is the damane, the source of the throne's power. This is what makes them the bad guys, and yet was mass starvation "better"? It was a huge unresolved problem that the show is only picking up on from the books. Hopefully in the future they will emphasize the good features of the Seanchan so the viewers can feel that conflict. Suroth and her court make them just seem like comic-book villains so far.

[Scarloc99]

8 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Seanchan sucked in the books and will hopefully continue to suck in the show. They are not good guys

Did they? Rand makes the point that it is not black and white, they leave there lands more peaceful then anywhere else, they are noble, believe in justice and honour in their own way, they are doing things for the right reasons, and, like i said, you can't say that collaring was not the right way to go in Seanchan lands in that time. Those Channellers could not be reasoned or worked with, they where tyrants and spent there lives fighting each other destroying the lives of those around them. The 2 options would have been killing all female channellers so as not to risk that happening again, or the collaring, there was no way that any of those would have willingly become Aes Sedai, they would not have given up real power to be servants,  with no oath rod they could not have been held to any kind of word, and, policing them would have been impossible. 

Collaring is the logical option, possibly even the right one in that circumstance, certainly for that generation of channellers. 

I loved the Seanchan because as a people everything they had become, every choice they had made made sense, and Tuon showed that they where capable of change, of learning, Mat teaches her to see that Randland is different, she takes to calling Mathre Damane Aes Sedai, 

[DreadLord31]

4 hours ago, Windigo said:

Anyone who remembers having their backside paddled or switched or mouths washed out with soap can tell you it is cruel, demeaning and abuse or as close to the line as can be in many cases, but not sexual.

 Actually… I’m glad my parents spanked me and washed out my mouth. 
Way too many disrespectful & foul mouth kids today. 
 

There are plenty of cases of abuse, but I don’t think RJ intended or saw it that way - I think he intended it to be punishment in the sense of “I’m disciplining you as a parent would a bratty child.” 

[Scarloc99]

On 9/22/2023 at 5:26 PM, nsmallw said:

Both Suroth and Liandrin are needed at this point, if they lose thier usefulness then the hatchet will fall. 

In the books Liandrin is constantly working against the Foresaken, she does not fear them until she realises she should have done, Suroth doesn't need to because her goals are fully in step with the greater game, and in the show she shows a slight defiance because Ishy has made her fall low, but she is very quickly put back in her place. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Scarloc99

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

4 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

Collaring is the logical option, possibly even the right one in that circumstance, certainly for that generation of channellers. 

Que? Hawkwing's hatred for Aes Sedai caused it, it made them the bad guys then and it makes them the bad guys now. It would be like Rand enslaving the world to fight in the armies for the last battle. Just no, especially not in a world with literal concepts of the Light and the Shadow.

 

Using the a'dam as a punishment for crimes, I can see an argument for, though even that is pretty dark. Using a'dam so that your centralized state has a monopoly on the One Power, which you use to subjugate the entire world is not justifiable, imho.

[Scarloc99]

On 9/22/2023 at 4:56 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

There is generally a sexual component to the Dom/Sub dynamic, yes, but unless a Sub is already subconsciously predisposed to being submissive, there's going to be a period where the Dom has to use both 'the carrot and the stick' (sometimes the stick more than the carrot), which is what was happening here, although, as noted, the Dom/Sub undertones were mixed with the casual cruelty

I wasnt going to comment further but I just want to pull this up because it is really important in the wider society given what has happend over recent years publically. 

If someone is not predisposed to being Sub then any attempt to "force them" into this dynamic is abuse, no doubt or question. If anyone sees a relationship that is labled as "DS" because the Dom (male or femlae) uses a stick to force the other person to behave as they want and when they want, and that person did not have any inclination towards DS, then please, step in, be there, because there is a very very very strong probability that the D type is an abuser and not a dom. 50 Shades of Grey is not a book about a DS dynamic, it is a book about a stalker and abuser who manipulates, gaslights and abuses his victim in the guise of "ds". I really don't want to derail this conversation but speaking as someone who has been an observer of this kind of relationship far to often, understanding this and being able to step in could literally save a life. 

[DreadLord31]

The things I don’t think the Showrunner//writers understand about the source material are: 

 

1) You don’t have to take away “big moments” from the male characters to have the female characters still be amazing

 

2) Rand is the main character

 

3) The Whitecloaks and Seanchan and Aiel and Traveling People and Aes Sedai aren’t all black and white, they’re ideologies lead them to do certain things that are both good and evil (the whole story is about balance and the tug-of-war between good and evil in all of us). So rather than comic book, laughing Seanchan (and especially WC) humanize them. The show has done a good job doing this with the Forsaken and Black Ajah ironically. And maybe we’ll get there with the others. 

 

4) it’s a story about how innocent, naive small town kids would react to being told they’re suppose to save the world 

 

5) you WILL ruin the story if you make Moiraine the central character of the whole thing 

 

6) the stoic ultimate warrior of Lan, would have been an interesting contrast to these more emotional characters

 

7) Matt is a nothing burger who keeps bailing on his friends

 

Things I think they’re doing really well writing and direction wise (this season anyways) are: 

 

1) compelling over-arching question (s) Why do people choose evil? Who can you trust? 
 

2) Liandrin/Ishy/Lanfear - are believable/humanized/understandable 

 

3) emotional/heart-tug moments: Nynaeve running through the arch holding her kid, Egwene being broken. 
 

4) finally introducing really important world-building concepts : world of dreams, ji’e’toh, TP, Forsaken dynamics of working against/betraying each other, Perrin’s wolf powers

[Scarloc99]

2 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Que? Hawkwing's hatred for Aes Sedai caused it, it made them the bad guys then and it makes them the bad guys now. It would be like Rand enslaving the world to fight in the armies for the last battle. Just no, especially not in a world with literal concepts of the Light and the Shadow.

 

Using the a'dam as a punishment for crimes, I can see an argument for, though even that is pretty dark. Using a'dam so that your centralized state has a monopoly on the One Power, which you use to subjugate the entire world is not justifiable, imho.

The seanchan lands where not Randland, yes Hawkwing at that point had his distrust of Aes Sedai, but there is no indication this feeling was shared by either of his children, in fact Tamika, there mother, helped to ease relations with the white tower and, if she had not died, would probably have encouraged him to be healed. 

It is therefore wrong to say that they did what they did because they hated Aes Sedai, lets be clear the women in Seanchan where not Aes Sedai, they rules with an iron hand, they punished and they constantly fought each other destroying the land. There is no way of negotiating or trying to show these women there is a different way, and any channeller born in this land, in this time, will instantly see that the power is a way to gain control. 

Now over time I agree, that cycle would be broken, but societal doctination comes in, if the time before was so awful why risk going back. The fact is that the return has opened Seanchan society up to the possibility that there is a different way, and so natuarally that change will start. It is interesting in Avi's first visions the second time through you don't see any indicator that channellers are collared. 

It is entirely possible to see the logic and reasoning behind making those choices, and understand that it might not be morally acceptable to us here, in the real world, but in the world of WOT, where the one power has caused so much destruction and pain and suffering that the collar feels like the best and only option to stop that happening again.  

[DaddyFinn]

Seanchan culture is influenced heavily by Ishamael. 

[Scarloc99]

6 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

The things I don’t think the Showrunner//writers understand about the source material are: 

 

1) You don’t have to take away “big moments” from the male characters to have the female characters still be amazing

 

2) Rand is the main character

 

3) The Whitecloaks and Seanchan and Aiel and Traveling People and Aes Sedai aren’t all black and white, they’re ideologies lead them to do certain things that are both good and evil (the whole story is about balance and the tug-of-war between good and evil in all of us). So rather than comic book, laughing Seanchan (and especially WC) humanize them. The show has done a good job doing this with the Forsaken and Black Ajah ironically. And maybe we’ll get there with the others. 

 

4) it’s a story about how innocent, naive small town kids would react to being told they’re suppose to save the world 

 

5) you WILL ruin the story if you make Moiraine the central character of the whole thing 

 

6) the stoic ultimate warrior of Lan, would have been an interesting contrast to these more emotional characters

 

7) Matt is a nothing burger who keeps bailing on his friends

 

Things I think they’re doing really well writing and direction wise (this season anyways) are: 

 

1) compelling over-arching question (s) Why do people choose evil? Who can you trust? 
 

2) Liandrin/Ishy/Lanfear - are believable/humanized/understandable 

 

3) emotional/heart-tug moments: Nynaeve running through the arch holding her kid, Egwene being broken. 
 

4) finally introducing really important world-building concepts : world of dreams, ji’e’toh, TP, Forsaken dynamics of working against/betraying each other, Perrin’s wolf powers

You could argue that Rand is not the main character in the books, especially later on, it is shown that every character has to be doing what they are doing to ensure the dark lord is defeated. Matt is told in the doorway that if he fails the shadow wins, and that makes sense given what happens at the last battle. 

If Perrin fails then Rand dies at the last battle. I

If Egwene fails then either the last battle never happens because elaida messes it up that badly, or Taim destroys the world regardless. 

If Nyn fails she isn't there to cleanse the taint, and she isn't there to heal Alanna and save Rand's sanity. 
but taking the idea that Rand is the main character (which I also get)

Moiraine is being transitioned from a lead character to side, and it is being done really well and subtly, but my wife who has never read the books is under no illusion that Rand is the Main Character of the story. She also has him figured out really well at this point of the story and understands the journey he is on, she gets these are just innocent out of the way country bumpkins who are suddenly in situations they never expected to be. Moiraine in the show is far more intresting then book "I am Gandalf all knowing all seeing" Moiraine, RJ actually has to clip Moiraines wings and try and retcon her a bit in the later books, I think because he wrote himself into a bit of a corner with her and had no where else to take her story.

 

[Scarloc99]

13 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Seanchan culture is influenced heavily by Ishamael. 

Is it? He influenced Arthur Hawking, but I have not seen in the background material that he directly influenced the invasion of Seanchan lands once it happened, I might be wrong, but he seemed to be tied to Randland while he was trapped in the bore and so the most he could do was "inspire" the invasion of the seanchan lands (you would think maybe to get rid of a load of soldiers and weaken hawkwings armies). but once the invasion happened foresaken direct influence didn't happen until the seals where weakened and they all became free? 
I might have missed something in the background material or an interview somewhere though that clarifies this. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Scarloc99

[Scarloc99]

A really small subtle point, Nynave now has 4 aes sedai rings in her possession, anyone think that might come into play at some point in the future, maybe when the girls are "pretending to be" full sisters? 

[Scarloc99]

On 9/22/2023 at 8:08 PM, Jaysen Gore said:

I really enjoyed the episode; I thought everything in Falme was excellently done; unlike the Season 1 story with Steppin and turning a throwaway character into a story arc to show not tell, they were much more effective with Ryma (another throwawy line)

 

I'm less happy about the whole thing with Mat - with only 2 episodes left, they need to get him on track.

Lan still is the worst represented character on the show, and nothing they've tried with him has worked so far. 

 

They are going to need some kind of magic carpet to get Rand and Moiraine to Falme next episode.  And they can't use the basement that was in the books. 

 

Some big mid-game set ups coming in the next episode before the end of the season. Time is ticking.

In the books it takes Rand almost a year of real time to get everyone to Falme (thanks to timewy wimey fun). Egwene needs to be collared for a significant amount of time to allow her full training to take effect, remember in the books this is the training that then allows her to advance so quickly in the tower. So having the journey take a while off camera is not an issue. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

40 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

The seanchan lands where not Randland, yes Hawkwing at that point had his distrust of Aes Sedai, but there is no indication this feeling was shared by either of his children, in fact Tamika, there mother, helped to ease relations with the white tower and, if she had not died, would probably have encouraged him to be healed. 

It is therefore wrong to say that they did what they did because they hated Aes Sedai, lets be clear the women in Seanchan where not Aes Sedai, they rules with an iron hand, they punished and they constantly fought each other destroying the land. There is no way of negotiating or trying to show these women there is a different way, and any channeller born in this land, in this time, will instantly see that the power is a way to gain control. 

Now over time I agree, that cycle would be broken, but societal doctination comes in, if the time before was so awful why risk going back. The fact is that the return has opened Seanchan society up to the possibility that there is a different way, and so natuarally that change will start. It is interesting in Avi's first visions the second time through you don't see any indicator that channellers are collared. 

It is entirely possible to see the logic and reasoning behind making those choices, and understand that it might not be morally acceptable to us here, in the real world, but in the world of WOT, where the one power has caused so much destruction and pain and suffering that the collar feels like the best and only option to stop that happening again.  

Perhaps it is a bit much to pin it on Hawkwing's hate, as while Luthair's only access to the One Power was Aes Sedai, the Aryth Ocean kind of stopped making that link very useful, and an Aes Sedai advisor or two would have been unlikely to be help much. 

 

But Luthair was an invader, without even the Seanchan's claim of returning to old claims to justify his invasion. And are we just to accept wholesale the Seanchan justification of slavery? You don't think their histories might be a bit biased? Your view appears to be somewhat trusting that first, the Seanchan never really wanted to enslave the channelers, they were forced to do it reluctantly (secretly they are not bad guys), and second, that they are going improve themselves, given a better example to follow (secretly they are not bad guys). This is why it would seem that you were shocked by the graphic display in the show, because it attacks your belief that secretly, they are not bad guys. But they are, despite however much good they have going for their state, culture and government. I think you are meant to be conflicted about them, not see them sympathetic and essentially good-natured.

Edited September 24, 2023 by HeavyHalfMoonBlade

[DigificWriter]

I unintentionally opened a can of worms with my comments, so let me reiterate that I recognize that BDSM requires consent, that BDSM without consent is abuse, and that the sul'dahm/damane dynamic is not actually BDSM despite the show using aspects that I personally associated with that kink in its depiction of damane training.

Edited September 24, 2023 by DigificWriter

[Seaine's eyebrows]

I had to wait until Sunday night to watch this one! It was worth the wait though, how good was Renna. I loved the portrayal of the sul'dam/damane relationship. Didn't get any BDSM feels from it personally (funny how many pages that convo has taken up this topic 😆), as I remember from the books how the Seanchan thought of damane as being animals, the most exotic of their exotics. But even without that, Renna repeatedly told Egwene that she was a damane, not a woman.

 

And Liandrin again! Every time I watch her I just like/pity her a little bit more. So much more interesting than in the books! And that sour face...

 

I am a bit concerned though that Nynaeve was able to channel (albeit brief and uncontrolled) after Ryma told her to relate it to healing, as she is supposed to be unable to unless angry. I'm hoping it won't affect a particular favourite scene further down the track, even as I kinda do like the fact that I don't know exactly what's going to happen in the show. (Uno again 😭)

[DaddyFinn]

50 minutes ago, Seaine's eyebrows said:

I am a bit concerned though that Nynaeve was able to channel (albeit brief and uncontrolled) after Ryma told her to relate it to healing, as she is supposed to be unable to unless angry. I'm hoping it won't affect a particular favourite scene further down the track, even as I kinda do like the fact that I don't know exactly what's going to happen in the show. (Uno again 😭)

Will this one instance of channeling when calm help with the block or not because she got them in trouble and Ryma&Basan killed? I guess it's not completely gone yet

[Windigo]

4 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Will this one instance of channeling when calm help with the block or not because she got them in trouble and Ryma&Basan killed? I guess it's not completely gone yet

This may actually re-enforce the block or at the least add additional complexity and reasons behind it, they have not done a very good job of fleshing that out in the show, in some ways as much as I love the humanizing and building out reasons for Liandra working with the Shadow, I wish they had spent a little less time on that and more on the motivations and traits of the EF 5 +  Min and Lan instead of using tricks like fridging,  and Ishy tricked me hacks.

[king of nowhere]

41 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 the show using aspects that I personally associated with that kink in its depiction of damane training.

i didn't want to touch that particular discussion, but i've seen nobody offer a clear depiction of the reationship of the kink with actual slavery, so I will

 

yes, there are aspects of breaking a recalcitrant slave that are associated with bdsm.

but the correlation is reverse. it's bdsm that took inspiration from slavery, so it's all natural that some elements would be somewhat similar.

 

seeing someone associate damane training with that... well, it's like someone saw a war and said "look, they really took inspiration from call of duty (or other similar fps videogames) to make that". no, it's the videogame that took inspiration from war, to let you live the exciting parts (challenge, adrenaline rush) without the negatives (people getting killed for real). in fact, mistaking the real war for the videogame would be offensive both for those running a real war, and for those playing videogames.

this example applies to bdsm on many levels.

 

I think everyone can understand the thrill of being a master. owning a beautiful sex slave and doing all you want with him/her, if you don't have moral issues with the thing, of course it's fun.

it's harder to explain it from a submissive perspective; however, some people also find the idea of having no control, of having that person who will do who-knows-what with them, to be exciting - as long as, deep down, they feel safe. this is an important distinction; trust is even more important in that kind of relationship than it is in a normal relationship. and while a submissive may like to be tied up and whipped by their partner, they would not like being kidnapped by strangers and subject to the same treatment.

There are also those who get a thrill by being insulted/humiliated, or by being in pain, but I am not into those specific subcategories, I don't understand them as well as the power dinamics, and I won't go into detail. ok, actually I do understand the pain part; when you are very excited, the brain can shortcut some mechanisms, and can register mild pain as extra excitement. I once accidentally wounded myself during sexual activity, and I didn't realize it until afterwards.

 

anyway, I say that to try and clarify why, though slavery was horrible, some aspects of it can be enticing, and some people may want to roleplay those aspects, in a safe environment. Just in the same way that war is horrible, but it has some enticing aspects, and so some people roleplay it for that, in a safe environment.

And that's why some things encountered in slavery are also used in the kink community. But that doesn't mean that a book/movie depicting slavery has anything to do with bdsm, despite displaying several similarities; it's that both the movie and the kink are partial depiction of the same thing. just in the same way that a war movie has nothing to do with a war videogame - or with larpg - but both of them are partial depictions of the same thing.

[EmreY]

3 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

Rand is the main character

 

Which is why I gloss over hundreds of pages in the books. 😉 

[Windigo]

3 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

I think everyone can understand the thrill of being a master.

No, this is where I think the entire conversation and discussion is wrong on many levels, Most people do not understand there being anything but cruelty, and abuse and a deep wrongness to slavery. 

[DigificWriter]

@king of nowhere I wasn't trying to glorify or downplay the horror or trauma of what this episode showed by admitting that I associated elements of it with Dom/Sub kinks; it was intended to be a simple observation that ended up going further afield than I anticipated.

[king of nowhere]

23 minutes ago, Windigo said:

No, this is where I think the entire conversation and discussion is wrong on many levels, Most people do not understand there being anything but cruelty, and abuse and a deep wrongness to slavery. 

I have a hard time believing that. I think you misunderstand the distinction between the real thing and the play-pretend thing.

of course i would not want to actually own sex slaves, because morals. but having a girl do anything i say would be fun. just like having infinite money would be fun, but i would not rob a bank or scam people to get there. just like I would not want to wander around shooting people, but I enjoy fps videogames.

 

unless you mean the depiction of damane within the show. in that case yes, the egwene treatment has very little resemblance to how real people play the kink, because real people are nowhere near that harsh, because real people doing that stuff do not hurt each other for real. just like real slavery has very little resemblance with what is actually done in the kink community. just like people cosplaying as roman legionaries and putting up mock fights has little resemblance with actual warfare.

19 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

@king of nowhere I wasn't trying to glorify or downplay the horror or trauma of what this episode showed by admitting that I associated elements of it with Dom/Sub kinks; it was intended to be a simple observation that ended up going further afield than I anticipated.

I wasn't trying to pass up any kind of judgment, or to be offended, or anything like that. I merely wanted to rationally explain the actual relationship between those kink elements and the actual thing, from a psycological and historical perspective.

Edited September 24, 2023 by king of nowhere