Would it matter if Tear happens after the events of TSR? (warning book spoilers)

[Elder_Haman]

35 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

Rand learns it for men although I can't remember if it is through recovered memories, something he observes the forsaken do, or something that Asmodean teaches him.

Rand does it by accident the first time. It’s when he ends up alone with Avi 

[Skipp]

3 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

There is no “Liandrin being a secret” now, everyone knows 

Everyone as in the audience?  Or everyone as in our heros?  Because aside from Verin no one in the White Tower suspects Liandrin and it is possible our heros never return there until much later. 

 

Oh sure, Anvaere knows but who is going to trust the head of a disgraced house.  One whose own son is a Darkfriend.

[Scarloc99]

8 hours ago, Skipp said:

Everyone as in the audience?  Or everyone as in our heros?  Because aside from Verin no one in the White Tower suspects Liandrin and it is possible our heros never return there until much later. 

 

Oh sure, Anvaere knows but who is going to trust the head of a disgraced house.  One whose own son is a Darkfriend.

The girls know, and egwene and Elayne need to pass the accepted test. Moiraine knows, and will get word to siuan, enough people know now. Liandrin will run and the girls will go to tanchio to follow just like the books. 

[Scarloc99]

11 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Rand does it by accident the first time. It’s when he ends up alone with Avi 

Oh I know he does that, I meant when he learns I do it himself and all the rules around it. 

[Sabio]

On 9/20/2023 at 2:18 PM, SinisterDeath said:

That's why they bring him to Rhuidean.

He doesn't get his Markings until he goes to Rhuidean.

You asked why would he go to the Wastes?

They're looking for the Car'a'carn. I made a quip that they saw a dragon in the sky.
We don't know where the "stone" comes into the TV show as of yet as that's part of the Prophecy of the Car'a'carn. 

We know that they are camped out in Falme in the show.

*edit*

The biggest issue is the show has made no mention of the markings or why they're important.  He has one now but the show did nothing to set up why the markings matter.  Seriously they could simply leave the markings out and non book readers would be none the wiser.  

 

 

Tear is simply not needed, he can use the waygate near Falme if needed, Going to Tear to grab a sword they have made no mention of would be a waste of time now.  Since next season will focus on Book4 and maybe some of 5, there isn't much time to explain Rand going to Tear.  You know half the next season will be wasted time anyway.

[Samt]

On 10/28/2023 at 5:54 AM, Elder_Haman said:

Rand does it by accident the first time. It’s when he ends up alone with Avi 

Is that the first time?  That is where he learns to jam a gateway open, but I am pretty sure he makes gateways many times before then.  I don't think it is 100% clear, but my understanding is that he uses a gateway to reach Tarwin's gap at the end of TEoTW, but that is just using muscle memories from LTT.  It's a bit of a progression to where he can consciously do it reliably.  

[Shawlee]

On 9/20/2023 at 1:07 AM, Samt said:

Too much asking "can we?" and not enough asking "should we?"

 

Very well said. 👏 I generally try to give these people the benefit of the doubt, but after season 2 i would definitely agree with you on this. And I am very salty about it. But I am not the one telling the story, and honestly what can we lowly fans do, other than sighing and speculating. .. and hoping and praying to light. 

[Shawlee]

On 9/20/2023 at 10:48 AM, Samt said:

The propensity of the show creators to continuously add self-contained plots that don't in any way condense existing parts of the books makes the contention that they are making changes to meet runtime demands simply preposterous.

 

THANK YOUUU!

[Shawlee]

On 9/20/2023 at 3:33 PM, Samt said:

My original point is that the complaint that there is not enough runtime is inconsistent with the fact that they are adding lots of things that don't condense or streamline the books.  They are just additional content

 

This is what I am mad about, we understand adaptation (people don't need to harp on that) but to add a whole frigging storyline out of the air about Moiraine and her non-existent 😑 family. And then they have the gal to say we didnt have enough time to show the hunt come on. 🙄 

[Shawlee]

On 10/11/2023 at 8:04 AM, Scarloc99 said:

but I do like the theory I have seen that Callandor replaces the bowl of the winds. 

 

What is that all about!? Oh lordie.

[Shawlee]

On 10/13/2023 at 3:17 AM, Dagon Thyne said:

Since Ishy is dead, one of the high lords of Tear who lead the war effort against him can be revealed as one of the other male forsaken and be killed by Rand

 

Wait wasn't Belal  in tear? They can easily expand on him or merge him with another male forsaken.

[Dagon Thyne]

2 minutes ago, Shawlee said:

 

Wait wasn't Belal  in tear? They can easily expand on him or merge him with another male forsaken.

I would say that the locations of the forsaken in the books should not be considered canon for the show.  

 

Though it would be fitting to put him in tear, And have rand kill him since he's killed by balefire in the books and is basically expendable.

 

My idea is to have two more or more of the forsaken posing as leaders of tear and Illian and lead their armies in a united front against rand and the aiel. 

There are a number of forsaken who are expendable since they die early in the books but could be recast later if they still want to have the plot point that the DO can put their souls into new bodies, with the exception of those killed using balefire.

 

It would be a great way to introduce a few of the forsaken even if they are killed off.  Have them manipulating the lords of major countries Into fighting rand, And have them revealed as forsaken before being killed or being forced to flee.  The ones who die in the first three books can be killed and maybe have one, perhaps Sammael who escapes.  Balal, Aginor, and Bathamel can all be killed with no damage to the plot.  

 

Perhaps Sammael is posing as the King of Illian and Balal as a high lord of tear who has gained enough power to lead the other high lords.  And aginor and bathamel who I believe are both weaker than they are even in the books are working with them as well.  Rand defeats them, takes the Stone, kills aginor, balance and bathamel, and Sammael escapes but is ousted as one of the forsaken to enough of the illians that they would support rand taking the city and being named king.

 

[Shawlee]

On 10/27/2023 at 5:35 PM, BenPatient said:

Who are we kidding...Eggy will probably save Mat from darkhounds, re-learn Traveling, and break Rand out of the Red Aja box. 

 

I am not sure if that was salt or you mean it?! 🤔 😅

[Shawlee]

On 10/28/2023 at 8:54 AM, Elder_Haman said:

Rand does it by accident the first time. It’s when he ends up alone with Avi 

 

No, that's the first time Aviendha uses the gateway weave. In Book 5. SHE is the first woman of this age to create a gateway. They better not cut it and give it Egwene. I would be pissed. Egwene figured out the weave for sure in Lord of Chaos.

 

Back to the point, this is when Rand learns to jam a gateway, all by instincts.

 

The first time it's hinted Rand possibly Traveled might have been as early as Eye of the world, at tarwins gap. But he really learns it when he skims after Asmodean, to race back to Rhuidean, at the end of shadow rising, when he creates the lakes there. 

 

 

 

 

[Shawlee]

13 hours ago, Dagon Thyne said:

My idea is to have two more or more of the forsaken posing as leaders of tear and Illian and lead their armies in a united front against rand and the aiel. 

 

United?

The forsakens?

And you want Tear and Illian to rally together?

 

How are they going to do that, they are ancient enemies, even forgetting that as nothing from the book matters anymore.

 

You think the forsaken will have the foresight and willingness to work together? Especially the rest of them. Only person who had that foresight is Issy.

 

You want Ravin and Sammael to work together or sammael and demandred? I just can't even imagine that. Also it will take away from the most important aspect of the chosens they DON'T WORK TOGETHER.

[Scarloc99]

16 hours ago, Shawlee said:

 

What is that all about!? Oh lordie.

People on here have suggested that given the whole bowl of the winds storyline is a bit boring and has no bearing on the story that needs to be told here (How Rand and the EF5 get to the last battle with the skills they need to win it) then you replace the bowl of the winds with Callandor. The girls go hunting for that. 

[Scarloc99]

17 hours ago, Shawlee said:

 

This is what I am mad about, we understand adaptation (people don't need to harp on that) but to add a whole frigging storyline out of the air about Moiraine and her non-existent 😑 family. And then they have the gal to say we didnt have enough time to show the hunt come on. 🙄 

Every time you cut something from the books in order to be able to allow stuff to be filmed you have to consider what that bit of story is also removing in terms of lore and information. You also have to consider the fact that teh WOT as written would make for an awful TV show, and it really would. I have a friend who works for Bad Wolf Productions here in cardif who is a WOT fan and as someone who understands making TV shows while there are some things he would have done differently he thinks the general approach to making this tv show is about how he would have approached it. As he said to me, the first 3 books have to be re thought and re planned out because as a TV story they are just boring and dull, audiences do not want to watch 3 seasons of people walking across a country chasing something or someone. He is gutted we lost Tear but understands that you have a limited budget so you either do Tear or Falme not both because with the limited time you want to get to book 4 as soon as possible 

Moiraine is not in book 2, that is a problem for a TV show that needs to be able to continue developing her as a character, especially given what we know is going to happen to her eventually. Now I can understand artistic debate here about what she should have done with that part of the story, however the fact is that Moiraine in the dragon reborn faces down Sammael (off page) in the tv show she has faced off with Lanfer on screen, we have seen through the arc of her family that darkfriends permeate throughout all levels of society, and we have set up potentially something to happen there in the future. We have learnt more about Moiraine then we ever did in the books, little details that are not outside teh scope of the character and add something. Lets be honest in the books Moiraine is Gandalf, as readers we know very very very little about her, that kind of character worked in the 90's but in 2023 it comes across as flat and non book loving audiences would just not feel any connection to her. 

As for not showing the hunt, Rafe explained that he had a very different season 2 arc planned out, and then he lost his Matt and had to keep him in Tar Valon, this meant he had to rewrite large parts of season 2. 

I think people are struggling to understand what an Adaptation is, it is not copying the source material and simply cutting out X% because you can't film it. every time something is cut out you have to consider what message or theme you are losing and then find ways to fit it in somewhere else in the context of the sets, cast and time you have available. My friend talked a few of us through what needed to be done to adapt his dark materials (which he worked closely on), as he has pointed out there are some huge deviations from the books in that series and each was made because making a TV show is just different. You can't do any internal monologue, you have to be very careful about what the camera focuses on because it is all there on screen, in a book if RJ wants the reader to really pick something up then he can describe it in far more detail, in TV you can't point a big arrow at something and say "pay attention to this". 

The best thing he said when we where talking about criticism online was this.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and always criticism is louder then agreement, but, those who criticise that X has been done have to also accept that if the show was made the way they want as many people would lambast it and attack it because of those same reasons, maybe that scene makes sense, but maybe if you add that you lose the budget for Falme, or you fail to set something up that is going to be important in season 4 or 5. unless you have been in the room with the writers and show runners and producers and all the other hundreds of people who make the choices on these things you can't simply say this should have been done instead of this.

Finally he said that people also need to remember that everyone involved is creative, no one wants to simply take something and copy it word for word, scene for scene, no Director would want to be given the book and told "film it this way" Peter Jackson added his flourishes to Lord of the Rings, the writers, directors and actors of His Dark Materials where all given licence to bring something of themselves to that project. As he said even something as fixed as shakespear is made differently every time a different actor and director get to work on it. No it is not about anyone thinking they are better then Robert Jordan, but it is about letting creative human beings go ahead and create, if you didn't give them that agency then no one would sign on, or if they did it would simply be for a pay day and nothing more and then you would have an awful show with no soul.

 

[Dagon Thyne]

On 11/1/2023 at 11:42 AM, Shawlee said:

 

United?

The forsakens?

And you want Tear and Illian to rally together?

 

How are they going to do that, they are ancient enemies, even forgetting that as nothing from the book matters anymore.

 

You think the forsaken will have the foresight and willingness to work together? Especially the rest of them. Only person who had that foresight is Issy.

 

You want Ravin and Sammael to work together or sammael and demandred? I just can't even imagine that. Also it will take away from the most important aspect of the chosens they DON'T WORK TOGETHER.

They often work together when it suits them, especially the weaker ones who know they aren't powerful enough to take on the more powerful.

[nsmallw]

12 hours ago, Dagon Thyne said:

They often work together when it suits them, especially the weaker ones who know they aren't powerful enough to take on the more powerful.

Besides if the show wants to show the Forsaken as more formidable than in the books, having them work together would be a way to do that.