Is anyone else going to be upset if they drop mat's starting session with Galad snd Gawyn?

[Dagon Thyne]

With mat's escape from the tower At the beginning of season 2, Part of me is worried that he won't be there to beat the crap out of galad  and gawyn.  

I'm sure they'll keep it in, Since it's such an epic moment for mat and a fan favorite.  But with so many changes to the story, I'm worried they'll drop it because it doesn't actually Have any necessary plot elements.  

 

I'm hoping that they have to take the Dagger back, And mat is the only one that can safely hold it, So he's forced to go back with them and be rehealed After holding the dagger for so long.  

[Mirefox]

17 minutes ago, Dagon Thyne said:

With mat's escape from the tower At the beginning of season 2, Part of me is worried that he won't be there to beat the crap out of galad  and gawyn.  

I'm sure they'll keep it in, Since it's such an epic moment for mat and a fan favorite.  But with so many changes to the story, I'm worried they'll drop it because it doesn't actually Have any necessary plot elements.  

 

I'm hoping that they have to take the Dagger back, And mat is the only one that can safely hold it, So he's forced to go back with them and be rehealed After holding the dagger for so long.  

 

Rafe was asked about that scene at some point and his answer was a little coy.  I'd have to hunt the quote down but the question was essentially "how awesome is the scene going to be when Mat spars with Galad and Gawyn."  Rafe's answer was something along the lines of "as awesome as you'd expect."

 

This was a while ago and I feel like we've missed the opportunity to see the fight, plot-wise.  We will see...

[Kathy Campbell]

I can confirm, off the record, that this will happen. It may not be exactly like we think, but it will happen. 
 

Sounds like it might be a perfect thing to do in Caemlyn. 

[Agitel]

I'd give it some time to be relocated to a little later in the show as we haven't been introduced to Gawyn/Galad yet and may not meet him/them until season three, but I'd be disappointed if it ultimately didn't make the cut.

[king of nowhere]

they could move it around, but they would have to introduce mat as a competent fighter at some point. the books used that scene to tell readers that mat, who did nothing special until that point and spent a long time sick, was capable of fending for himself.

 

on the same note, i do really hope the show does something for rand swordfighting. it would have been good to see him spar with errol once. in any case, they have to show him getting some training if they want his duel with turak to be believable

[Scarloc99]

7 hours ago, Dagon Thyne said:

With mat's escape from the tower At the beginning of season 2, Part of me is worried that he won't be there to beat the crap out of galad  and gawyn.  

I'm sure they'll keep it in, Since it's such an epic moment for mat and a fan favorite.  But with so many changes to the story, I'm worried they'll drop it because it doesn't actually Have any necessary plot elements.  

 

I'm hoping that they have to take the Dagger back, And mat is the only one that can safely hold it, So he's forced to go back with them and be rehealed After holding the dagger for so long.  

So I there is a chance that none of the main characters return to the tower in the way they do in the books, mainly because the books get very repetitive with the back and forth. The Girls may find some way back in order to pass through the arches, but given that it looks like they are travelling from Falme straight into Tear and then book 4 I don't see how they make a whistle stop trip back to do that. 

As a result you will no doubt see versions of scenes you love happening in different locations, as much as you love the 2 brothers being schooled in front of a warder there is no reason that Gareth Bryne can't play the role of the tutor watching the sparing, covering the bet with Mat. This introduces him as a character and lets the audience see him before he is sent away "in disgrace". 

[Samt]

37 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

So I there is a chance that none of the main characters return to the tower in the way they do in the books, mainly because the books get very repetitive with the back and forth. The Girls may find some way back in order to pass through the arches, but given that it looks like they are travelling from Falme straight into Tear and then book 4 I don't see how they make a whistle stop trip back to do that. 

As a result you will no doubt see versions of scenes you love happening in different locations, as much as you love the 2 brothers being schooled in front of a warder there is no reason that Gareth Bryne can't play the role of the tutor watching the sparing, covering the bet with Mat. This introduces him as a character and lets the audience see him before he is sent away "in disgrace". 

I like your optimism that Gareth Bryne is in the show, but it would surprise me if he makes an appearance.

[Scarloc99]

9 hours ago, Samt said:

I like your optimism that Gareth Bryne is in the show, but it would surprise me if he makes an appearance.

One of the great generals that leads the last battle, with a storyline that ends in tragedy, a storyline that leads directly to Matt being given the role he is at the last battle, the whole compulsion plot is key to the dark almost winning and to have that pack an emotional punch the audience needs it to happen to characters they care about. We have Siuan so we will have Gareth because there arcs are so interlinked, and that kind of tragic story is one that TV writers love to write. 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Scarloc99

[Samt]

6 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

One of the great generals that leads the last battle, with a storyline that ends in tragedy, a storyline that leads directly to Matt being given the role he is at the last battle, the whole compulsion plot is key to the dark almost winning and to have that pack an emotional punch the audience needs it to happen to characters they care about. We have Siuan so we will have Gareth because there arcs are so interlinked, and that kind of tragic story is one that TV writers love to write. 

Oh I hope so.  But given what we have seen and the proclivities of the creators, I suspect that Siuanraine is the gaywashed endgame.  (Remember Rafe wanted to kill off Thom for real).  If Bryne doesn’t have his relationship with Siuan, he’s highly cuttable.  We aren’t getting the book version of 5 captains anyways (bye Agelmar, we hardly knew you).  I doubt Ituralde or Niall makes it either. Davram is only a maybe, I’d say.  Maybe Bryne is included as a very background character, but I wouldn’t hold my breath.  

 

Note also that the creators seem very motivated to either cut, kill off early, or undercut any competent and honorable men from the books.  (Lan, Thom, Agelmar, Uno, Abel).  To Rafe, all masculinity is toxic masculinity.

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, Samt said:

Oh I hope so.  But given what we have seen and the proclivities of the creators, I suspect that Siuanraine is the gaywashed endgame.  (Remember Rafe wanted to kill off Thom for real).  If Bryne doesn’t have his relationship with Siuan, he’s highly cuttable.  We aren’t getting the book version of 5 captains anyways (bye Agelmar, we hardly knew you).  I doubt Ituralde or Niall makes it either. Davram is only a maybe, I’d say.  Maybe Bryne is included as a very background character, but I wouldn’t hold my breath.  

 

Note also that the creators seem very motivated to either cut, kill off early, or undercut any competent and honorable men from the books.  (Lan, Thom, Agelmar, Uno, Abel).  To Rafe, all masculinity is toxic masculinity.

Where is the quote that Rafe wanted to kill off Thom, that is the first I have heard of that? 

[Samt]

41 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

Where is the quote that Rafe wanted to kill off Thom, that is the first I have heard of that? 

It may or may have not been a joke but from here:  

 

 

I have Sarah Nakamura (our incredible WoT goddess) talk me through the long-term ramifications of any changes so that we know what's going to happen. Sometimes to drive her crazy I will send a casual email that's just like -- "Hey, can you work up a long-term ramifications list for if we kill Thom?". And just keep going like it's a totally normal day as she collapses as a human being. Then tell her we're not going to kill him. I think it helps keep her on her toes, but she probably disagrees, haha.

[SinisterDeath]

32 minutes ago, Samt said:

It may or may have not been a joke but from here:  

 

 

I have Sarah Nakamura (our incredible WoT goddess) talk me through the long-term ramifications of any changes so that we know what's going to happen. Sometimes to drive her crazy I will send a casual email that's just like -- "Hey, can you work up a long-term ramifications list for if we kill Thom?". And just keep going like it's a totally normal day as she collapses as a human being. Then tell her we're not going to kill him. I think it helps keep her on her toes, but she probably disagrees, haha.

Now replace Thom with Uno, and now that conversation made in jest suddenly makes sense.

[ForsakenPotato]

On 9/13/2023 at 3:39 PM, Samt said:

I like your optimism that Gareth Bryne is in the show, but it would surprise me if he makes an appearance.

I think if we got the arguably less important Bayle, we're likely to get Gareth, but probably a bit abbreviated. I don't know if his and Siuan's arc needs to be romantic to end with him as her warder, but if it is I really hope she doesn't look like a teenager. It was weird in the books and it'll be weirder on screen. Same goes for Elayne hitting on Thom. Ick.

[ForsakenPotato]

13 hours ago, Samt said:

Oh I hope so.  But given what we have seen and the proclivities of the creators, I suspect that Siuanraine is the gaywashed endgame.  (Remember Rafe wanted to kill off Thom for real).  If Bryne doesn’t have his relationship with Siuan, he’s highly cuttable.  We aren’t getting the book version of 5 captains anyways (bye Agelmar, we hardly knew you).  I doubt Ituralde or Niall makes it either. Davram is only a maybe, I’d say.  Maybe Bryne is included as a very background character, but I wouldn’t hold my breath.  

 

Note also that the creators seem very motivated to either cut, kill off early, or undercut any competent and honorable men from the books.  (Lan, Thom, Agelmar, Uno, Abel).  To Rafe, all masculinity is toxic masculinity.

Well Thom is definitely coming back, he wasn't introduced just to disappear forever. Perrin is getting a lot of screentime this season and seems plenty masculine. Elyas is very different from the books but still seems "competent and honorable" to use your words. I have no doubt Tam will be back too, providing an excellent example of healthy masculinity. I'm not gonna totally dispute you, I think the female characters have been better in the show so far -- but to say any competent man has been or will be removed from the show seems like a massive exaggeration.

[Samt]

2 hours ago, ForsakenPotato said:

I think if we got the arguably less important Bayle, we're likely to get Gareth, but probably a bit abbreviated. I don't know if his and Siuan's arc needs to be romantic to end with him as her warder, but if it is I really hope she doesn't look like a teenager. It was weird in the books and it'll be weirder on screen. Same goes for Elayne hitting on Thom. Ick.

I always assumed that the Elayne Thom relationship was familial since Thom knows she is basically his adopted daughter and Elayne, from her POV, senses something familiar about him, but never in a romantic way.  We don't get anything from either Elayne or Thom that they ever have any romantic feelings or intentions. The scandalous response is from Nynaeve's POV.  Elayne knows that it is bothering Nynaeve and continues to troll her without having any actual romantic feelings.  At least that is how I interpreted it. 

 

The fact that lots of book readers also seem to think it is scandalous is kind of ironic since that means that Elayne was trolling not only Nynaeve but a bunch of book readers.  

 

In regards to Siuan and Gareth, what's wrong with her looking like a young woman?  The reasonable objection to large age gaps is that the difference in experience and interests is so large that the relationship is likely shallow.  But Siuan is a former Amyrlin with vast experience, knowledge, wisdom, and capabilities that make her every bit a match for one of the great captains.  Why does her also looking young and attractive make the relationship less appropriate?

Edited September 15, 2023 by Samt

[Samt]

2 hours ago, ForsakenPotato said:

Well Thom is definitely coming back, he wasn't introduced just to disappear forever. Perrin is getting a lot of screentime this season and seems plenty masculine. Elyas is very different from the books but still seems "competent and honorable" to use your words. I have no doubt Tam will be back too, providing an excellent example of healthy masculinity. I'm not gonna totally dispute you, I think the female characters have been better in the show so far -- but to say any competent man has been or will be removed from the show seems like a massive exaggeration.

Of course I am using hyperbole to make a point, but it's not a secret that Rafe wants to elevate female characters at the expense of male characters.  That's evident both from his comments about wanting a feminist re-imagining of the story as well as the actual changes that have been made to the show.  Gareth Bryne may make an appearance, but I highly suspect it will be small at most.  

[ForsakenPotato]

9 hours ago, Samt said:

I always assumed that the Elayne Thom relationship was familial since Thom knows she is basically his adopted daughter and Elayne, from her POV, senses something familiar about him, but never in a romantic way.  We don't get anything from either Elayne or Thom that they ever have any romantic feelings or intentions. The scandalous response is from Nynaeve's POV.  Elayne knows that it is bothering Nynaeve and continues to troll her without having any actual romantic feelings.  At least that is how I interpreted it. 

 

The fact that lots of book readers also seem to think it is scandalous is kind of ironic since that means that Elayne was trolling not only Nynaeve but a bunch of book readers.  

 

In regards to Siuan and Gareth, what's wrong with her looking like a young woman?  The reasonable objection to large age gaps is that the difference in experience and interests is so large that the relationship is likely shallow.  But Siuan is a former Amyrlin with vast experience, knowledge, wisdom, and capabilities that make her every bit a match for one of the great captains.  Why does her also looking young and attractive make the relationship less appropriate?

Neither are technically bad or wrong, they both just felt kinda weird to me as a reader. I think seeing it onscreen is unlikely to improve that. I don't think I'm the only person who feels that way. But to each their own!

[Samt]

1 hour ago, ForsakenPotato said:

Neither are technically bad or wrong, they both just felt kinda weird to me as a reader. I think seeing it onscreen is unlikely to improve that. I don't think I'm the only person who feels that way. But to each their own!

Did you feel the same about Morgase/Tallanvor?

 

I think Elayne/Thom could work on screen if you lean into the fact that it's supposed to be a joke.  But it doesn't seem that the show is really leaning into the self-deprecating humor of the books, so it's probably not on theme.  

Edited September 15, 2023 by Samt

[Cipher]

On 9/14/2023 at 10:28 AM, SinisterDeath said:

Now replace Thom with Uno, and now that conversation made in jest suddenly makes sense.

Honestly I would be half surprised if Thom comes back in any form.

[Cipher]

15 hours ago, ForsakenPotato said:

I think if we got the arguably less important Bayle, we're likely to get Gareth, but probably a bit abbreviated. I don't know if his and Siuan's arc needs to be romantic to end with him as her warder, but if it is I really hope she doesn't look like a teenager. It was weird in the books and it'll be weirder on screen. Same goes for Elayne hitting on Thom. Ick.

No agelessness probably means no de-aging, but they may Ned Stark Siuan.

Elaine wasn’t really “hitting” on Thom in my mind.  She had an affection for him and it was misread.

[Cipher]

Avienda is gonna be given Mat’s victory over the bros.

[SinisterDeath]

5 minutes ago, Cipher said:

Honestly I would be half surprised if Thom comes back in any form.

https://winteriscoming.net/2022/12/14/thom-merrilin-will-not-be-in-the-wheel-of-time-season-2/
 

Quote

One character we now know for certain won’t be back for the show’s sophomore season is Thom Merrilin, the gleeman played Alexandre Willaume. Willaume recently appeared on an episode of The Mighty Dragon podcast where he broke the news. “I’m not in season 2 [of The Wheel of Time], ’cause my character, Thom Merrilin, is not in for season 2, but he should be in for season 3,” the actor said.

Like many of us have said... He is returning.

[Cipher]

5 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

https://winteriscoming.net/2022/12/14/thom-merrilin-will-not-be-in-the-wheel-of-time-season-2/
 

Like many of us have said... He is returning.

Cool.  Sad that he doesn’t have a bigger role.

 

I fear another near 2 year wait for S3, because of the strikes.  As a critic of the show I enjoyed re-watching S1E1-E3 and S2 has been interesting if not what I really hoped for in WoT on screen.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Cipher

[Samt]

1 hour ago, Cipher said:

No agelessness probably means no de-aging, but they may Ned Stark Siuan.

Elaine wasn’t really “hitting” on Thom in my mind.  She had an affection for him and it was misread.

Exactly how I read it.  Nynaeve misreads it and Elayne doubles down because she thinks it's funny.  

[Scarloc99]

3 hours ago, Cipher said:

Cool.  Sad that he doesn’t have a bigger role.

 

I fear another near 2 year wait for S3, because of the strikes.  As a critic of the show I enjoyed re-watching S1E1-E3 and S2 has been interesting if not what I really hoped for in WoT on screen.

As far as I am aware most of the writers/cast of WOT are not members of SAG as they are all based in the UK and therefore are not striking.