Warning Book Spoilers:- Where the tv show might go given all we know about the character arcs.

[Scarloc99]

On the back of the season 2 chats it is clear we are starting to talk about the future of characters in relation to what we know from the books, both in relation to season 2 but also beyond. So as not to risk spoiling the series for non book lovers lets do all the spoiler filled chat here 

[Scarloc99]

So to get us started it seems the main questions have been about. 

 

1) Moraine, does she go through the door and get written off for a couple of seasons to be saved in season 7 and return to Rand in season 8, or, does that whole storyline change. 

2) the Dagger and the nature of Fains evil and what changing that does to the events involving cleansing the taint and shadar logath. 

3) Verin is she a darkfriend and will she be hunting the from the inside, or is she not a darkfriend in the show. For that matter, who is a darkfriend that was in the books and who might not be? 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

17 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

So to get us started it seems the main questions have been about. 

 

1) Moraine, does she go through the door and get written off for a couple of seasons to be saved in season 7 and return to Rand in season 8, or, does that whole storyline change. 

2) the Dagger and the nature of Fains evil and what changing that does to the events involving cleansing the taint and shadar logath. 

3) Verin is she a darkfriend and will she be hunting the from the inside, or is she not a darkfriend in the show. For that matter, who is a darkfriend that was in the books and who might not be? 

Thank you for initiating and facilitating this thread! I’m relieved that we have a safe space to discuss without having to navigate the issue of spoilers. I don’t even know how much what I know is so ingrained in my perspective that I can’t separate what is a spoiler and what isn’t. Really appreciate it!

 

excellent questions to get the thread started  

 

moiraine is so full of areas to speculate on how the show will approach her arc. I have a hard time imagining her being killed off early on, and kinda feel like they will fast track the apparent death and resurrection rather than get rid of her entirely or leave her out for an extended period of time. On the other hand I could see the show runners looking for their shock opportunity (Ned stark and the red wedding to use GOT as an example) and deciding to use moiraine to achieve it. 
 

im also very curious about how the dagger, fain, and mat for that matter will play out 

 

I also wonder about verin but more generally if we will see some characters that are or aren’t Darkfriends in the books be different in the show. 

 

curious how the madness attributed to saidin might be presented differently. Logain says something along the lines of it’s not actually pure madness, and we do see some elements of this in the books where the voice of LTT isn’t total nonsense. Of course hearing voices no one else can hear isn’t exactly sane, but the voices in this case have some significance. 
 

will Alanna forcibly bond lan instead of Rand? Moiraine mentions something to that effect 

 

A few things off the top of my head but there will be so many more things to unpack so thanks again for providing the safe thread

[Scarloc99]

With Verin I always felt her character was really underused in the books. For me she is the most interesting character in the entire series. She has done despicable things in order to gain the position and information she has, both amongst the Black Ajah and the wider Dark Friend organisation in general. But through the series we don't get any of that morale quandry within her, we don't get to see her wrestle with workig out if the bad she has done is greater then the good that will come from her completing her work. We don't see her wrestle with working out when the right moment is to oust the organisation. I think RJ was wrong to keep her black ajah status secret and make readers try and figure it out. he should have done that reveal far earlier, and then had the big surprise be when she tells Egwene what she was really doing. That whole scene also, in the TV show, maybe shouldn't happen when Egwene is herself in the middle of a major arc, will she live or won't she. Or if it is then don't immediately let anyone know egwene is going to be ok. It all needs time to breathe a little. 

I really hope the TV show shows you Verin being black as early as possible, maybe even season 2. Have her kill her sister, then throughout the show show everything she does from the perspective of a darkfriend working for the shadow, then when she finally has that moment to do the big reveal have a flashback montage showing all those "evil things" she did from a different perspective showing how they actually helped the light. Really make the Audience feel that emotion from knowing she was a good person, who truly did evil things, for a good reason. 

[Scarloc99]

Moraine, yes she absolutely needs to go through the door and the producers and writers should be brave enough to write her off the show for a while, maybe a season, then only show her surviving in the Finn realm when Lanfer is saved from it, but show her weak and have Moridin say something like "she doesn't have long left" 

Then nothing more until the letter is read and we get another flash to her still alive and then can get frustrated at Matt and Thom for not rushing to rescue her sooner. 

[Scarloc99]

In the books it is explained that the madness in Rand is the soul of LTT existing in the same body, but we also see with the other Ashamen that the madness resolves itself in other ways. Now, it might be that Dragons (False or Real), all have a common element of voices, and that is what makes a false dragon a false dragon, they hear voices telling them that they are. But I hope we see the other madness elements like the boy trying to break the palace apart like building blocks, or the Ashaman who thinks he always sees Fades. Nynaeve healing madness is a major point in the story, especially as it comees at a moment where she is feeling less super sayan about her own healing because the Kin and yellows have taken her teachings and are doing amazing things, and the Ashaman are also making there own healing progress. 

[Scarloc99]

Alanna is going to bond Rand, there are so many bits of foreshadowing to the last battle and Nynaeve fighting to keep Alanna alive that they are not going to pay that off. Egwene using herbs at the end of season 1, the emphasis of the bond with the Steppin arc etc. That story is not changing. 

[king of nowhere]

on the other hand, the alanna of the show is a much more nice person, it would feel wrong for her to bond rand against his will.

then again, they could easily use someone else to do it

[Scarloc99]

2 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

on the other hand, the alanna of the show is a much more nice person, it would feel wrong for her to bond rand against his will.

then again, they could easily use someone else to do it

Alanna has shown she is happy to shock and embarrass, she has an edge to her, and in her description to Egwene about 3 somes she gives a sense of how she has a selfish side that is about getting what she wants. I can see that person absolutely bonding Rand against his will. But also in the books she feels guilty about it and isn't a bad person. Her loyalty is to Rand not the WT towards the end.  

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

14 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

But also in the books she feels guilty about it and isn't a bad person.

I wasn’t entirely sure if verin may have influenced her to bond Rand by force in the books

[Scarloc99]

So we are seeing that Liandrin is Black, so we continue our trend of, despite the writers trying to throw us off, every black character is in fact black. but I do like we are getting to know our evil characters more. I am pretty sure in the books Liandrin was a darkfriend and of the Black Ajah because she liked hurting people and using compulsion, and she liked doing those things because she was evil and so the circle is complete. I like the idea that we might actually get a bit more nuance and explanation as to why these people made the choices they did as opposed to simply "I was evil so it seemed the obvious choice". 

[Finnssss22]

Pretty sure Verin is not Black in the show and will be taking the Cadsuane role.

I also believe Liandrin will be taking over Verin's "background".

When I originally heard that Shohreh Aghdashloo was being cast, I thought for sure she would be Cadsuane but now it's being said that she will actually play Elaida. So unless they're screwing with us, I 100% see the Verin/Cads/Lian switcharoo.

When Liandrin frees Nyn as she was leaving sealed it for me as this was very akin to Verin's extra help she gave Egwene to hunt the Black Sisters in the books.

[SinisterDeath]

4 hours ago, Finnssss22 said:

Pretty sure Verin is not Black in the show and will be taking the Cadsuane role.

I also believe Liandrin will be taking over Verin's "background".

When I originally heard that Shohreh Aghdashloo was being cast, I thought for sure she would be Cadsuane but now it's being said that she will actually play Elaida. So unless they're screwing with us, I 100% see the Verin/Cads/Lian switcharoo.

When Liandrin frees Nyn as she was leaving sealed it for me as this was very akin to Verin's extra help she gave Egwene to hunt the Black Sisters in the books.

Hard disagree. 
Liandrin' freeing Nyn was just a power-play against another Darkfriend to make them look inept. Suroth is taking Liandrin's prize that she wanted to turn to the BA to make herself look better in the DO's eyes.

That's how Darkfriends work. They back stab each other. We literally get a scene a few minutes later between Lanfear and Ishy where he says something like "you wouldn't betray me right?" and she says "of course I would", and they both laugh.

[Skipp]

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

Hard disagree. 
Liandrin' freeing Nyn was just a power-play against another Darkfriend to make them look inept. Suroth is taking Liandrin's prize that she wanted to turn to the BA to make herself look better in the DO's eyes.

That's how Darkfriends work. They back stab each other. We literally get a scene a few minutes later between Lanfear and Ishy where he says something like "you wouldn't betray me right?" and she says "of course I would", and they both laugh.

I do think that Liandrin did actually care for Nynaeve and would have preferred to turn to the shadow but orders are orders.  And yeah freeing Nynaeve was certainly a big FU to Suroth but I can't help but think it was also because she has some respect for Nynaeve.

[Cipher]

On 9/6/2023 at 3:56 AM, Scarloc99 said:

With Verin I always felt her character was really underused in the books. For me she is the most interesting character in the entire series. She has done despicable things in order to gain the position and information she has, both amongst the Black Ajah and the wider Dark Friend organisation in general. But through the series we don't get any of that morale quandry within her, we don't get to see her wrestle with workig out if the bad she has done is greater then the good that will come from her completing her work. We don't see her wrestle with working out when the right moment is to oust the organisation. I think RJ was wrong to keep her black ajah status secret and make readers try and figure it out. he should have done that reveal far earlier, and then had the big surprise be when she tells Egwene what she was really doing. That whole scene also, in the TV show, maybe shouldn't happen when Egwene is herself in the middle of a major arc, will she live or won't she. Or if it is then don't immediately let anyone know egwene is going to be ok. It all needs time to breathe a little. 

I really hope the TV show shows you Verin being black as early as possible, maybe even season 2. Have her kill her sister, then throughout the show show everything she does from the perspective of a darkfriend working for the shadow, then when she finally has that moment to do the big reveal have a flashback montage showing all those "evil things" she did from a different perspective showing how they actually helped the light. Really make the Audience feel that emotion from knowing she was a good person, who truly did evil things, for a good reason. 

When I re-read the books Verin as BA seems tacked on at the end of the story.  There were so many times she could have killed the Emond’s Fielders or thwarted their plans, but is actually helping them.  I look for anything (through book 11 right now) and I see nothing of her being evil or working for the Dark.  In my mind I see her as a double agent—was evil, but then decided it was wrong and used it to help the Light.

 

Edit:  I will look up threads in Book forum.  And start one if nothing addresses.  Ignore my response unless you can tie it to OP topic.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Cipher

[Scarloc99]

11 hours ago, Finnssss22 said:

Pretty sure Verin is not Black in the show and will be taking the Cadsuane role.

I also believe Liandrin will be taking over Verin's "background".

When I originally heard that Shohreh Aghdashloo was being cast, I thought for sure she would be Cadsuane but now it's being said that she will actually play Elaida. So unless they're screwing with us, I 100% see the Verin/Cads/Lian switcharoo.

When Liandrin frees Nyn as she was leaving sealed it for me as this was very akin to Verin's extra help she gave Egwene to hunt the Black Sisters in the books.

Well the writers are song there job here, Verin is black, she is doing as she did in the books, working subtly against the black from within. Liandrin absolutely freed Nyn expecting her to quickly get re capture but also hoping she would at least embarrass Suroth and at best out right kill her. That is not how Verin worked at all. 

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, Cipher said:

When I re-read the books Verin as BA seems tacked on at the end of the story.  There were so many times she could have killed the Emond’s Fielders or thwarted their plans, but is actually helping them.  I look for anything (through book 11 right now) and I see nothing of her being evil or working for the Dark.  In my mind I see her as a double agent—was evil, but then decided it was wrong and used it to help the Light.

 

Edit:  I will look up threads in Book forum.  And start one if nothing addresses.  Ignore my response unless you can tie it to OP topic.

Compulsion used on the Aes Sedai prisoners which RJ writes in the book will mean they die within a year or 2 is the biggest and most obvious sign, there are others throughout the books when you re read. I remember as the books were being released lots of discussion on the forum about if she was black or not. 

[Scarloc99]

So episode 5 for me pretty much confirms that Verin is Black Ajah, she is very good at encouraging others to help discover what has gone on, while not specifically mentioning or saying anything herself. We know that one of the 3 black oaths is 

I shall hold close the secrets of the Black Ajah, unto the hour of my death.

Verin at no point said the black exist, in the same way an aes sedai gets around the oath to always tell the truth so she got round that oath by laying a trail of breadcrumbs subtle enough that someone else could say those words and start investigating. Brilliantly written and for non book readers I am looking forward to them working their way back. I do think we will get a definitive reveal about Verin being black sooner then we do in the books and the fakeout will be the writers convincing the viewer that she has been working against the light in some nefarious plot, or trying to just get herself up the hirearchy in the black, and is evil al along, before the big switch reveal at the end. Although they need to walk the tightrope of making her sympathetic enough that people care that she dies (which goes against my earlier thinking that she needed to be seen doing evil things). 

The other suggestion is that this is in fact the investigation that leads to her being forced to become black ajah and the writers use that to show the viewer what you must go through to join the black, but I really hope that is not the case. 

[Finnssss22]

6 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

So episode 5 for me pretty much confirms that Verin is Black Ajah, she is very good at encouraging others to help discover what has gone on, while not specifically mentioning or saying anything herself. We know that one of the 3 black oaths is 

I shall hold close the secrets of the Black Ajah, unto the hour of my death.

Verin at no point said the black exist, in the same way an aes sedai gets around the oath to always tell the truth so she got round that oath by laying a trail of breadcrumbs subtle enough that someone else could say those words and start investigating. Brilliantly written and for non book readers I am looking forward to them working their way back. I do think we will get a definitive reveal about Verin being black sooner then we do in the books and the fakeout will be the writers convincing the viewer that she has been working against the light in some nefarious plot, or trying to just get herself up the hirearchy in the black, and is evil al along, before the big switch reveal at the end. Although they need to walk the tightrope of making her sympathetic enough that people care that she dies (which goes against my earlier thinking that she needed to be seen doing evil things). 

The other suggestion is that this is in fact the investigation that leads to her being forced to become black ajah and the writers use that to show the viewer what you must go through to join the black, but I really hope that is not the case. 

 

The other thing that occurred to me if I'm wrong about Verin and Liandrin is the possibility that what happened to Verin in the past didn't and it instead plays out now during the show. Her current investigations leads her down that path.

It just doesn't make sense to me that Verin is bringing all this heat down on Liandrin if they're playing for the same side and Liandrin was acting on Ishy's orders.

Know what i mean?

Edited September 16, 2023 by Finnssss22

[DaddyFinn]

Cadsuane has been mentioned at least twice in S2. If Verin took her arc, what would Cadsuane do?

23 hours ago, Finnssss22 said:

Pretty sure Verin is not Black in the show and will be taking the Cadsuane role.

 

[Scarloc99]

4 hours ago, Finnssss22 said:

 

The other thing that occurred to me if I'm wrong about Verin and Liandrin is the possibility that what happened to Verin in the past didn't and it instead plays out now during the show. Her current investigations leads her down that path.

It just doesn't make sense to me that Verin is bringing all this heat down on Liandrin if they're playing for the same side and Liandrin was acting on Ishy's orders.

Know what i mean?

I also had that fear, and it is a fear because in the books Verin has been doing her thing for decades and is experienced and entrenched in the black. In the show it would mean her having to start over and then get that level of information. On the other hand it allows the viewer to see the process of joining the black. 
 

From what we know from the books Verin treads a fine line between helping and undermining, she might not know ishy ordered it, much like Liandrin might not have known she didn’t need to use compulsion on Sheriam. 

[Jaysen Gore]

 a random dump of thoughts based on what we've seen so far, and touching on what people have talked about in this thread:

 

- I've seen nothing so far that makes me think that the major story points of the EF5 will be changed in anyway. I know people are up in arms over the appearance of Rand's girls not being Rand's girls, but I'm not sold on that. and (if you handwave S1.Ep8), the Wonder Girls are right where they should be. And get back to me in 3 weeks if Mat isn't exactly where he is at the end of TGH either. Especially if Min and Mat meet Aludra in a stable on the road to Cairihien, and that Falme fortress stands in for the Stone of Tear.

 

- OTOH, I'm not sure Rand ever learns to use the sword. Unless they use flashbacks to Lan / Errol teaching him during the fight with Turok.

 

- The 3 known Black Sisters that have appeared in the series so far are not only on spec, they show is actually playing them better than the novels did.  Liandrin's been humanized while still competing with other Darkfriends, Verin is still worming her way closer to the EF5 / Moiraine  while undermining other DF's (bearing in mind the kill the EF5 order didn't come until much later; the Forsaken wanted them turned, not dead, because only the Great Lord could make use of them then). and the nuance around the other DF sister is because there is now written proof of her ability to lie.  The thing I might like most about the series over the books is how much more complex the motivations of DF's are.

 

- Dain Bornhald and the Children of Light; not only is Dain going to get a similar redemption arc regarding Perrin, I expect he gets a more redemptive arc for himself and the Children.  Which is necessary, because the willingness of the Children to fight for Perrin in ToM / AMOL did come a little out of nowhere

 

- On the Forsaken front, loved that they called out Moggy and Graendal by name, and as I posted in the ep.5 review thread, I expect the boys are mostly the generals, so I'm betting this means:

- No Mesaana in the Tower; it'll be Graendal, but will have the same Egwene confrontation. 

- Moggy will be Moggy, and Nynaeve's foil for the series

- No Aran'gar / Osan'gar - just too damn controversial and time consuming. 

- No Semirhage, her spanking, or her eating food like a dog. 

- I think we get Taimandred, and lose Shara entirely.

- For Lanfear, the number one thought is just how much more "and you loved power more, Meirin" is going to hit her, after Rand inferred he loved her.  Given where Rand and Selene left off, she's going to lose him again. In the books, Rand rejected her advances. This time, she had him, and loses.

 

Lan - still no idea how they fix this, but I expect he ends up where he's supposed to before this is all over

 

I am more optimistic that the series ends up how it should, and will be a good turning of the wheel.  the fact that they admit mistakes were made in Season 1, and Covid was a factor, and season 2 is both an increase in quality and a move back towards the books plotwise are good things

 

 

[Mirefox]

21 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

 

- OTOH, I'm not sure Rand ever learns to use the sword. Unless they use flashbacks to Lan / Errol teaching him during the fight with Turok.

 

I really hope they don't do this.  We already had a Rand flashback that served as a reveal near the end of last season.  If they try to do it again at the end of this season to say that he's secretly become a swordmaster off screen, that is the epitome of lazy writing and it repetitive storytelling to boot.

[Finnssss22]

5 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

I really hope they don't do this.  We already had a Rand flashback that served as a reveal near the end of last season.  If they try to do it again at the end of this season to say that he's secretly become a swordmaster off screen, that is the epitome of lazy writing and it repetitive storytelling to boot.

 

I think either it will be Lan fighting HLT not Rand or Rand will win through channeling.

If you watched the little teaser for next week, you know why I'm saying it might be Lan instead.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Finnssss22

[Mirefox]

6 minutes ago, Finnssss22 said:

 

I think either it will be Lan fighting HLT not Rand or Rand will win through channeling.

If you watched the little teaser for next week, you know why I'm saying it might be Lan instead.

I don't watch the trailers but from a simple storytelling perspective it would make sense to switch it up.  Rand really hasn't earned anything yet and it wouldn't make sense to give him a big victory against HLT right before a big fight with Ishy, at least not in the way the show has been telling the story.