S2 Ep1-3 Predictions

[DreadLord31]

We’ve gotten a lot of new content in the form of interviews, posters, trailer … We know on Sept 1 we’re going to get 3 episodes. What are we gonna see? Let the predictions roll… 

[DreadLord31]

We know it begins (you can watch it at the end of season 1) with a version of the Dark-Friend social. 
 

I think we’re then going to have a scene of Matt going into the Tar Valon, and are gonna pick up with what we didn’t see of Matt from last season. I think Liandrin “captures” him, and that still-shot of sad Matt is from episode 1. I also think the shot of him looking at the dagger on the table is from episode 1 & we’ll see him “healed” in Ep1. 
 

And I think 

Spoiler

Liandrin is working with Fain in the harbor and gives him the dagger; and the shot of her walking through NH at night is Ep1

I think we also get a little time with each main character to “catch up”. Rand shaving head and trying to hide. Moiraine in a bad place and Lan frustrated with her. Girls go to the tower to train. Perrin hunting for the horn. 
 

Episode 2: I think we’ll get Perrin hunting for the horn, freeing Avi from a cage, Avi fighting White Cloaks, training with Elyas, Hopper, really a focus on Perrin. Also something with the Seanchan. But I think we’ll get a little of Rand/Moiraine in Cairhein too. 

 

Episode 3: I think we get Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne in the WT and Nynaeve’s block being broken and her taking the Accepted Test. But I also think we’ll get (yes this early) the girls going through a gateway and fighting Seanchan and Egwene being collared. I think Egwene in captivity is how the Ep3 will leave us on a “cliff-hanger”. 

[Samt]

20 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

We know it begins (you can watch it at the end of season 1) with a version of the Dark-Friend social. 
 

I think we’re then going to have a scene of Matt going into the Tar Valon, and are gonna pick up with what we didn’t see of Matt from last season. I think Liandrin “captures” him, and that still-shot of sad Matt is from episode 1. I also think the shot of him looking at the dagger on the table is from episode 1 & we’ll see him “healed” in Ep1. 
 

And I think 

  Reveal hidden contents

Liandrin is working with Fain in the harbor and gives him the dagger; and the shot of her walking through NH at night is Ep1

I think we also get a little time with each main character to “catch up”. Rand shaving head and trying to hide. Moiraine in a bad place and Lan frustrated with her. Girls go to the tower to train. Perrin hunting for the horn. 
 

Episode 2: I think we’ll get Perrin hunting for the horn, freeing Avi from a cage, Avi fighting White Cloaks, training with Elyas, Hopper, really a focus on Perrin. Also something with the Seanchan. But I think we’ll get a little of Rand/Moiraine in Cairhein too. 

 

Episode 3: I think we get Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne in the WT and Nynaeve’s block being broken and her taking the Accepted Test. But I also think we’ll get (yes this early) the girls going through a gateway and fighting Seanchan and Egwene being collared. I think Egwene in captivity is how the Ep3 will leave us on a “cliff-hanger”. 

I hope Avi doesn’t replace Gaul in the cage. That would create a link between Avi and Perrin that needs to be paid off when they barely interact at all in the books.  If we’re cutting Gaul, then either no cage or maybe Bain or Chiad in the cage.

 

In regards to Nynaeve’s block, it’s really early for her block to be broken. Or do you just mean that they try to start breaking it?  

[DreadLord31]

4 hours ago, Samt said:

I hope Avi doesn’t replace Gaul in the cage. That would create a link between Avi and Perrin that needs to be paid off when they barely interact at all in the books.  If we’re cutting Gaul, then either no cage or maybe Bain or Chiad in the cage.

 

In regards to Nynaeve’s block, it’s really early for her block to be broken. Or do you just mean that they try to start breaking it?  

Yeah, I think Gaul is cut; but I don’t think we’ll get a cage scene. 
 

No, I think Liandrin is gonna “help” break her block and they are gonna do it this early (need to fast track a lot of story-lines). And then she’ll take her Accepted test; I think Liandrin will then forge 3 rings & take her, Eg, and Elayne through a gateway and into their capture by the Seanchan & that’s basically how Ep3 will end. 
 

But that’s all speculation from clips and interviews and other people’s speculations. 

[Samt]

1 hour ago, DreadLord31 said:

Yeah, I think Gaul is cut; but I don’t think we’ll get a cage scene. 
 

No, I think Liandrin is gonna “help” break her block and they are gonna do it this early (need to fast track a lot of story-lines). And then she’ll take her Accepted test; I think Liandrin will then forge 3 rings & take her, Eg, and Elayne through a gateway and into their capture by the Seanchan & that’s basically how Ep3 will end. 
 

But that’s all speculation from clips and interviews and other people’s speculations. 

So she breaks her block before the accepted test and Liandrin already knows how to make gateways?  If you thought season 1 was off the rails, buckle up.  That's some wild re-writing.  

[DaddyFinn]

4 minutes ago, Samt said:

So she breaks her block before the accepted test and Liandrin already knows how to make gateways?  If you thought season 1 was off the rails, buckle up.  That's some wild re-writing.  

I guess @DreadLord31 meant waygate

Edited August 21, 2023 by DaddyFinn

[Kaleb]

5 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

I guess @DreadLord31 meant waygate

And putting "help" in quotes indicates they think Liandrin is going to attempt to use her time working on Nynaeve's block (which will be unsuccessful, just like in the books) in a manipulative way.

[Pandemonium]

 

We know Rand is going to spend time in a mental institute where he likely confronts some of his insanity and tries to receive advice from Logain.  Rand may get a couple hints, but I believe the mentor role is still reserved for Asmodean next season.   This may only be an episode or 2, but eventually Rand is going to leave and head to Cairhien.

The Lanfear release scene from the seals will happen.  This may or may not immediately precede a scene where Selene is somehow an innkeeper in Cairhien.  And who appears in this inn, but Rand himself?  Of course romance will commence and Rand will be smitten, but the show will give us a couple subtle clues to her creepiness.    We know Rand is going to be wearing nicer clothes in this season, and he may elicit a few invitation from nobel houses.  I believe they need to sow the seeds for the civil war that will likely begin by the 6th episode of season 2.  

 

In the first couple episodes the girls will head to the white tower.  They will meet Elayne there, along with Elayne's brothers Galad & Gawyn.  The girls will also have teaching sessions with some of the new Aes Sedai such as Verin, Sheriam, and Liandrin (gasp).  Nynaeve will become accepted first but still have sessions with the sisters to break her block.  I don't think her block will break this season-- they don't want an overpowered Nynaeve in the show yet.  Egwene will continue to be a prodigy, and Elayne will be an insufferable royal but also one that is excited for an adventure.

In the tower, the girls will also run into Matt & Min.  Min has evacuated to the white tower. Min sees lots of visions of the Aes Sedai and we get hints of future White tower split (season 3).  We will get the iconic Matt vs Galad & Gawyn this season.  Matt is basically a prisoner of the tower with reds watching close.  We also find out that Matt's connection to the dagger is not completely broken.  Matt was acting sketchy at the end of episode 6/season 1 and that is because he still has the distrust from Shadar Logoth.  He will get a full healing by the 2nd episode.   He will have the hunger from the healing too and we should get some comedy scenes involving gambling and lots of food.  

The scene where the girls leave the tower will build up fast.  We will get Verin teaching them about the dreamworld, and we will get Liandrin playing the role of black ajah master who is baiting the girls into leaving to be caught by the Seanchan.  Before the girls leave they will help Matt to find an escape from Tar Valon.  

It would be amazing to get the Lanfear tempting a nude Matt in the tower, but I doubt we will get that scene.  I do believe Fain will visit Liandrin in Tar Valon.  Maybe Matt will somehow sense the dagger and then use this as a pretext to folllow Fain and escape Tar Valon.

 

Perrin stuff...  Perrin will join with the Shienarians on the quest for the horn.  Elyas will be the 'sniffer' on that team.  Perrin will start learning more about his connection to the wolves, and eventually he will even learn of 'Shadowkiller' along the way.  Not sure what happens here, but some of it will be dark.... I hope they leave the massacred towns and the fade nailed to the door.

We are likely to see Noam along the way.

 

The Seanchan threat will definitely be building and we will see some of their organization at work in the first couple episodes.  But not much until Egwene and company gets captured.

 

Moiraine will be off to attend to her research project, whatever that is.  It appears from the preview there will still be an attack by a Fade.   Not sure what else is going to happen other than the flaming sword scene with the fade.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pandemonium]

For cold opens we will get:

 

1.  Darkfriend social

2.  Seanchan invasian stuff

3.  wolfbrother scene (either Noam of Elyas involved)

Edited August 21, 2023 by Pandemonium

[DreadLord31]

8 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

I guess @DreadLord31 meant waygate

Yeah, I did. Sort of; because they aren’t really waygates (they’ve been changed to include portal stones/maybe all of the ways someone might travel?). I mean, we saw them in S1 they’re nothing like the Waygates of the books. And the show completely botched it (with this change) in that they didn’t give any explanation whatsoever of why Loial should go with them. 

Yes, I think Liandrin is going to be quite manipulative in her “working” with Nynaeve on the block. But I also think we’ll get more … backstory/motivation with Liandrin. And perhaps, jealousy? Of Nynaeve’s power. And Donal telegraphed in an interview that in the first episode he got to work quite a bit with Kate. So I (think I know) that there’s a Matt/Liandrin capture scene in Ep1. 
 

I think @Pandemonium is spot on, we’ll get Rand in the crazy house in Cairhein in Ep1 and meeting Selene as an innkeeper. But I don’t think the scene with him talking to Logain is until Ep2 when Suian comes to Cairhein. I think we’ll see Moiraine/Lan traveling to try to find Rand in Cairhein in Ep1. 
 

I think in Ep2 Rand will accidentally burn down an inn in the Foregate crazy house and then you’ll get Moiraine finding him and Suian coming and Rand talking with Logain about how to control the power. And Logain eating some (lucky charms?) lol

[Pandemonium]

1 hour ago, DreadLord31 said:

Yeah, I did. Sort of; because they aren’t really waygates (they’ve been changed to include portal stones/maybe all of the ways someone might travel?). I mean, we saw them in S1 they’re nothing like the Waygates of the books. And the show completely botched it (with this change) in that they didn’t give any explanation whatsoever of why Loial should go with them. 

Yes, I think Liandrin is going to be quite manipulative in her “working” with Nynaeve on the block. But I also think we’ll get more … backstory/motivation with Liandrin. And perhaps, jealousy? Of Nynaeve’s power. And Donal telegraphed in an interview that in the first episode he got to work quite a bit with Kate. So I (think I know) that there’s a Matt/Liandrin capture scene in Ep1. 
 

I think @Pandemonium is spot on, we’ll get Rand in the crazy house in Cairhein in Ep1 and meeting Selene as an innkeeper. But I don’t think the scene with him talking to Logain is until Ep2 when Suian comes to Cairhein. I think we’ll see Moiraine/Lan traveling to try to find Rand in Cairhein in Ep1. 
 

I think in Ep2 Rand will accidentally burn down an inn in the Foregate crazy house and then you’ll get Moiraine finding him and Suian coming and Rand talking with Logain about how to control the power. And Logain eating some (lucky charms?) lol

 

Your version of Logain makes more sense than mine.  Aes Sedai coming to Tar Valon gives us Logain being paraded in a cage.  It also gives a reason for why Rand gets his nice clothes.  Only thing I don't know is the why of Rand coming out of his independence and deciding to meet with Siuan.  In the books he wants to escape before meeting her.  But whatever the reason, Rand is now an important person and starts getting the nobels attention.  

 

My version is pretty linear, from season 1 we know they will have lots of unexpected changes to the storyline.  Too hard to predict that stuff

 

We also know Rand is likely to meet with Lan before the Siuan meeting.  I guess Moiraine will find Rand first and warn him that he either work with the Amyrlin or be hunted down like Logaine.  Lan will teach Rand swords, cat crosses the courtyard, etc.  This will build the relationship that culminates in Rand being Shadowkiller, Rands showdown with Turok, and Lan teaching the sheathing the sword in episode 6 or 7.  

 

Since Perrin doesn't know Rand is still alive, it will be cool to see him be in awe of Shadowkiller and then ultimately realize Shadowkiller is the new badass Rand when they finally meet up.  

Edited August 21, 2023 by Pandemonium

[DreadLord31]

7 hours ago, Pandemonium said:

Since Perrin doesn't know Rand is still alive, it will be cool to see him be in awe of Shadowkiller and then ultimately realize Shadowkiller is the new badass Rand when they finally meet up.  

I like that prediction. 
I do think that Hurin with be cut and replaced with Elyas & we’ll get some Wolf Training pretty early on. Ep3 maybe? 

[nsmallw]

16 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

Since Perrin doesn't know Rand is still alive, it will be cool to see him be in awe of Shadowkiller and then ultimately realize Shadowkiller is the new badass Rand when they finally meet up. 

I like that prediction. 
I do think that Hurin with be cut and replaced with Elyas & we’ll get some Wolf Training pretty early on. Ep3 maybe? 

About Moiraine telling the rest of the EF 5 that Rand is "dead".  I am interested in seeing how that plays out in season two. Will she even see any of them to tell?

Personally, I hope she doesn't tell them Rand's dead.

I'd prefer her to them the truth.  

[Scarloc99]

On 8/21/2023 at 3:31 AM, DreadLord31 said:

Yeah, I think Gaul is cut; but I don’t think we’ll get a cage scene. 
 

No, I think Liandrin is gonna “help” break her block and they are gonna do it this early (need to fast track a lot of story-lines). And then she’ll take her Accepted test; I think Liandrin will then forge 3 rings & take her, Eg, and Elayne through a gateway and into their capture by the Seanchan & that’s basically how Ep3 will end. 
 

But that’s all speculation from clips and interviews and other people’s speculations. 

Nynaeves block is such a key part of the story that this won’t be fast tracked. The way she loses it in the book is a key cinematic moment. 
 

I will say if you’re right with any of this then I am done with the series but I think your miles off. The only “confirmation” we have of no Gaul or cage is that they haven’t been shown in the trailer. Rafe previously reassured a fan that the Aiel seen dead in season 1 was “certainly not Gaul” that indicates to me we are getting Gaul at some point. 
 

My prediction. The opening will match the book fairly closely, Siuan will travel to meet Rand and the boys etc but I think Mat will be with her and she will tell them that they must find the dagger to save mat. This means Mat is back with the party as he should be. Rand, Perrin and the rest go Horn/dagger hunting and the girls head back to tar valon. Oh you will also get to see Rand and Lan sparring and Lan does his “sheathing the sword” speech. 
 

I think hunting the horn will take just 3-4 episodes. We don’t need 8 episodes of traipsing across more of Randland chasing a mcguffin. 
 

The girls will go to Tar Valon, meet Elayne and we will get some Tar Valon training stuff (cue a montage). Nyn gets to go through the arch but her block is not cleared. 
 

Liandrin then takes the girls to be captured as per the book, but they won’t then return to Tar Valon ever again, which does make me wonder if they move up making elayne and Egwene accepted far faster. 
 

Episode 4 I think we get Falme. 
 

Oh and I don’t think the Scene in the trailer is the dark friend social, I think that is just the forsaken. I don’t think we will get the darkfriend social because really from a narrative perspective it doesn’t really achieve anything in terms of getting Rand to the final battle. What I think we will see instead are Darkfriends being spoken to one to one. 

[DreadLord31]

4 hours ago, nsmallw said:

Personally, I hope she doesn't tell them Rand's dead.

I'd prefer her to them the truth

unless you think Moiraine is stilled, she literally can’t “tell them” that Rand is dead. She can mislead them into thinking that’s the case … 

 

I think it very unlikely that Moiraine is stilled, they’ve been very careful about using the verbiage “she’s been cut off from the OP” - much more likely that she’s shielded and Suian is going to help her untie the shield in this season. 
 

Do you think she’s stilled? 

[DreadLord31]

2 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Nynaeves block is such a key part of the story that this won’t be fast tracked. The way she loses it in the book is a key cinematic moment. 
 

I will say if you’re right with any of this then I am done with the series but I think your miles off. The only “confirmation” we have of no Gaul or cage is that they haven’t been shown in the trailer. Rafe previously reassured a fan that the Aiel seen dead in season 1 was “certainly not Gaul” that indicates to me we are getting Gaul at some point. 
 

My prediction. The opening will match the book fairly closely, Siuan will travel to meet Rand and the boys etc but I think Mat will be with her and she will tell them that they must find the dagger to save mat. This means Mat is back with the party as he should be. Rand, Perrin and the rest go Horn/dagger hunting and the girls head back to tar valon. Oh you will also get to see Rand and Lan sparring and Lan does his “sheathing the sword” speech. 
 

I think hunting the horn will take just 3-4 episodes. We don’t need 8 episodes of traipsing across more of Randland chasing a mcguffin. 
 

The girls will go to Tar Valon, meet Elayne and we will get some Tar Valon training stuff (cue a montage). Nyn gets to go through the arch but her block is not cleared. 
 

Liandrin then takes the girls to be captured as per the book, but they won’t then return to Tar Valon ever again, which does make me wonder if they move up making elayne and Egwene accepted far faster. 
 

Episode 4 I think we get Falme. 
 

Oh and I don’t think the Scene in the trailer is the dark friend social, I think that is just the forsaken. I don’t think we will get the darkfriend social because really from a narrative perspective it doesn’t really achieve anything in terms of getting Rand to the final battle. What I think we will see instead are Darkfriends being spoken to one to one. 

 

I don't think your "loins are girded" enough, my friend (referring to what the book consultant, Sarah Nakamura said about how book readers will feel about S2). There are a number of points that I can already prove to you your wrong. 

 

#1: We've already gotten their version of the Dark Friend social. You can go to the last episode of S1 and they added a 4-minute scene at the end. Be interesting to hear your revised thoughts after you've watched that. 

#2: The actor for Matt, Donal Flinn, has said in an interview that in the first episode his main co-actor is Kate Fleetwood (Liandrin) -- episode one will definitely have Matt locked in the White-Tower as a prisoner and Liandrin dialoguing with him. We have a still of "sad Matt" locked in a room in the WT, that is from Ep1. 

#3: Neither Rand or Matt will be part of the horn hunting. It's just going to be Perrin and Shinaran soldiers and then they'll meet Avi, Bain, and Chiad (and maaaybe Gaul, but I doubt it). The most recent interview I've seen of Perrin even gives away that "Perrin gives an impassioned speech about how they need to kill Fain ." Interviews have noted that Rand will be in Cairhein hanging around the mentally insane, he'll meet Selene there who is an Innkeeper, he'll talk to Logain in Cairhein when Suian brings him there -- and she'll meet with Rand in Cairhein as well. 

#4: I can just about guarantee you that Falme will be episode 8 due to pics released in an article that had episode stamps -- the one of "Jedi Rand" facing off against Turok is episode 8. 

#5: Based on the most recent interview with Daniel Henney, I know that Lan will fight two Fades at the end of Episode 1; and based on that info, I would guess that Lan is trying to follow Moiraine/protect Moiraine as she hunts for Rand/heads TO Cairhein. 

#6: Based on the most recent interview with Zoe Robbins, we know that her Accepted test will be in Episode 3. And I can just about guarantee you that Ep3 is going to end with Liandrin taking them through a "Gateway" in the WT -- and Suroth with Damane being on the other side -- fighting the girls, CGI battle -- Nyn and Elayne escaping, but. Egwene being captured. 

 

https://winteriscoming.net/2023/08/22/the-wheel-of-time-cast-spills-season-2-details-talks-the-one-power-changes-and-more/

 

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by DreadLord31

[Scarloc99]

5 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

 

I don't think your "loins are girded" enough, my friend (referring to what the book consultant, Sarah Nakamura said about how book readers will feel about S2). There are a number of points that I can already prove to you your wrong. 

 

#1: We've already gotten their version of the Dark Friend social. You can go to the last episode of S1 and they added a 4-minute scene at the end. Be interesting to hear your revised thoughts after you've watched that. 

#2: The actor for Matt, Donal Flinn, has said in an interview that in the first episode his main co-actor is Kate Fleetwood (Liandrin) -- episode one will definitely have Matt locked in the White-Tower as a prisoner and Liandrin dialoguing with him. We have a still of "sad Matt" locked in a room in the WT, that is from Ep1. 

#3: Neither Rand or Matt will be part of the horn hunting. It's just going to be Perrin and Shinaran soldiers and then they'll meet Avi, Bain, and Chiad (and maaaybe Gaul, but I doubt it). The most recent interview I've seen of Perrin even gives away that "Perrin gives an impassioned speech about how they need to kill Fain ." Interviews have noted that Rand will be in Cairhein hanging around the mentally insane, he'll meet Selene there who is an Innkeeper, he'll talk to Logain in Cairhein when Suian brings him there -- and she'll meet with Rand in Cairhein as well. 

#4: I can just about guarantee you that Falme will be episode 8 due to pics released in an article that had episode stamps -- the one of "Jedi Rand" facing off against Turok is episode 8. 

#5: Based on the most recent interview with Daniel Henney, I know that Lan will fight two Fades at the end of Episode 1; and based on that info, I would guess that Lan is trying to follow Moiraine/protect Moiraine as she hunts for Rand/heads TO Cairhein. 

#6: Based on the most recent interview with Zoe Robbins, we know that her Accepted test will be in Episode 3. And I can just about guarantee you that Ep3 is going to end with Liandrin taking them through a "Gateway" in the WT -- and Suroth with Damane being on the other side -- fighting the girls, CGI battle -- Nyn and Elayne escaping, but. Egwene being captured. 

 

https://winteriscoming.net/2023/08/22/the-wheel-of-time-cast-spills-season-2-details-talks-the-one-power-changes-and-more/

 

 

Sorry that isn't the dark friend social. And that is ok, it is a scene probably inspired by that scene in the book but it's purpose is very different. The scene in the book is designed to show the reader something of the inner workings of the forces of the dark, it starts to shift the story from the very traditional LOTR style of EOTW and introduces the machinations and manipulations of the forces of the dark. Now, Season 1 has already shown some of that through the Darkfriend who tried to catch Mat and Rand. The audience understand that darkfriends can be anywhere, so, this scene instead introduces us to Ishy, introduces us to someone who is convinced what they are doing is right and puts into the viewers mind questions. 

I really like this scene, one of my major issues with the books is the one dimensional nature of the bad guys for much of it. The bad guys are bad because they do bad things, Trollocs are mindless evil beasts etc. I like the idea of having more nuance, If the Dragon is intended to break the world then why is Ishy the bad guy when he just wants to make it all more ordered. This is a narrative that the TV show can play out. 

[Samt]

18 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

Sorry that isn't the dark friend social. And that is ok, it is a scene probably inspired by that scene in the book but it's purpose is very different. The scene in the book is designed to show the reader something of the inner workings of the forces of the dark, it starts to shift the story from the very traditional LOTR style of EOTW and introduces the machinations and manipulations of the forces of the dark. Now, Season 1 has already shown some of that through the Darkfriend who tried to catch Mat and Rand. The audience understand that darkfriends can be anywhere, so, this scene instead introduces us to Ishy, introduces us to someone who is convinced what they are doing is right and puts into the viewers mind questions. 

I really like this scene, one of my major issues with the books is the one dimensional nature of the bad guys for much of it. The bad guys are bad because they do bad things, Trollocs are mindless evil beasts etc. I like the idea of having more nuance, If the Dragon is intended to break the world then why is Ishy the bad guy when he just wants to make it all more ordered. This is a narrative that the TV show can play out. 

Why do people think the book doesn’t have complex villains? Not all of the book villains are complex, but there are lots of villains and most of them are complicated in one way or another. There are even some characters that may or may not be villains.  

[Scarloc99]

2 minutes ago, Samt said:

Why do people think the book doesn’t have complex villains? Not all of the book villains are complex, but there are lots of villains and most of them are complicated in one way or another. There are even some characters that may or may not be villains.  

There are some fantastic non darkfriend villians yes, and, far later in the books even some of the forsaken become more understandable, but the fact remains that most of them are cartoonish, and probably right up to books 5 or 6 there is very little complexity to the villiany. You see Forsaken being evil, because they should be evil, you see Whitecloaks being murder hobos, because they are murder hobos etc. Even later on the only truly complex villain is Elaida, everyone else is either evil because they are evil, or does what they do because they don't have all the information and have been manipulated, or compulsed. 

There is plenty of complexity about many of the villains, if you read the source material after reading the actual story, but, as they are written on the page you see very little of any actual motivation, especially early on. The TV viewer cant be waiting until the very end of the series to start being told reasons why the bad guys are bad. That needs to happen in scenes like this. 

[DreadLord31]

1 hour ago, Scarloc99 said:

Sorry that isn't the dark friend social.

I said “their version of the Dark-friend social”; and yes, the TV vs. book scene are different and their purposes are slightly different; none-the-less, that IS, 100%, without debate, the T.V version of the Darkfriend social. I believe Rafe in an interview said as much. I think if you go to the Dusty Wheel YouTube channel you can see chopped up interviews with Matt Hatch and a bunch of the cast. 
 

Now, I do agree with you, that they’re going to give more screen time and complexity to the villains & that, that scenes purpose is to give complexity to Isha’mael. But there’s gonna be a lot of that in the show … where it’s “their version” of an iconic scene from the books. 
 

now that I reread what you wrote … I think we’re kind of saying the same thing, actually. 

Edited August 23, 2023 by DreadLord31
Rereading

[Samt]

15 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

There are some fantastic non darkfriend villians yes, and, far later in the books even some of the forsaken become more understandable, but the fact remains that most of them are cartoonish, and probably right up to books 5 or 6 there is very little complexity to the villiany. You see Forsaken being evil, because they should be evil, you see Whitecloaks being murder hobos, because they are murder hobos etc. Even later on the only truly complex villain is Elaida, everyone else is either evil because they are evil, or does what they do because they don't have all the information and have been manipulated, or compulsed. 

There is plenty of complexity about many of the villains, if you read the source material after reading the actual story, but, as they are written on the page you see very little of any actual motivation, especially early on. The TV viewer cant be waiting until the very end of the series to start being told reasons why the bad guys are bad. That needs to happen in scenes like this. 

I think we're pretty much agreeing on the level of complexity in the villains.  When someone claims that the villains aren't complex, my first assumption is that they probably haven't read the later books.  It's true that the POV characters in the early books aren't aware of the complexity, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  I also don't think you need to read the extra supporting materials to see the complexity.  The supporting materials explain it more directly and concisely, but it's there in the main 15 books.  I haven't read any of the supporting materials myself (although I have certainly been exposed to them second hand) and see lots of the villains as complex.  

 

A lot of evil is ultimately motivated by basic seven deadly sins stuff (greed, envy, pride, wrath, lust, gluttony, sloth).  It's not complicated.  People are complicated only insofar as they are not entirely evil.  Villains become "complicated" when we realize that they have good in them, or maybe had good in them.  

 

I also am not so quick to write off "villains" that are manipulated or don't have all of the information as uncomplex.  That's a pretty realistic setup for a "villain" and can be thought provoking for the real world.  

Spoiler

Villains like Masema, Couladin, Sevanna, Elaida, Seanchan, Elaida's red Ajah, whitecloaks, early Gawyn, early Galad are all misled in some ways.  And some of these aren't really villains, but they do villainous things at times.  Also, Sheriam.

I think it's a good idea for the show to explore the complexity of the villains.  I just don't understand why people think this is not in the books.