Why not follow the books more closely?

[Mirefox]

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

So they made him a different kind of thief? That’s a modification, not an assassination. And one that fits with the shift in the other main characters. 

It’s like explaining color to a blind person; if you can’t see that there is a drastic tonal shift in the characterization of many of these characters then I suppose it makes sense that you’re so happy with how they are presented.  The defining personalities of many of these characters have been changed for TV; that’s character assassination and Matbwas one of the more egregious, along with Rand.

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Mirefox said:

It’s like explaining color to a blind person; if you can’t see that there is a drastic tonal shift in the characterization of many of these characters then I suppose it makes sense that you’re so happy with how they are presented.  The defining personalities of many of these characters have been changed for TV; that’s character assassination and Matbwas one of the more egregious, along with Rand.

Yes there was a tonal shift. Purposefully aging the characters up and making them more worldly and less naive. 
 

Their “defining personalities” have not changed at all. Rand is still kind and innately gentle. Mat is still a reluctant hero who loves his friends and a strong drink. Perrin is still a deliberate thinker who is slow to anger and fears losing control. Egwene is still driven and loyal. Nynaeve is still stubborn, rash and superior. 

[Yamezt]

On 9/21/2023 at 11:49 PM, SinisterDeath said:

 

I'd maintain that the only way to have a "1:1" live-action adaptation of the Wheel of Time, is to make this extremely low budget, as that's the only way you're going to be able to afford 1:10th of the actors you'd need for named characters in the books. Maybe we could have handed this over to Bollywood and they could have done a fairly decent job at it...

If a 1:1 screen adaptation is to be made, I think it might be possible if it is done using 3D animation. 3D animation isn't the most pretty (you are not talking like the Cinema quality type - but pushing it out weekly quickly). The Chinese have been adapting chinese Webnovels into 3D animation for a while and those webnovels can be atrociously long and laborious to read.

 

An example of one that was fully adapted is Douluo Dalu (Some translations call it Soul land) - they adapted the entire Webnovel into 3D animation over 5 years, screening about 15-18 mins per week (and while it made changes, it is surprisingly close to the source material compared). 

 

The first novel with the first MC has about 300ish chapters - thereabouts. So it isn't short. 

 

During COVID as everyone was working from home, the episodes were reduced by about 5 mins per episodes so they could churn it out weekly.

 

They obviously try to end each episode at a cliff hanger, but sometimes they will end at unusual spots in the narrative cuz.... that's just where the story lands in the Webnovel.

 

They have since moved on to Soul land 2 (the 2nd protaganist). That webnovel itself has like over a thousand chapters - but they have also reduced fights that last over 2 chapters to half an episode.

 

However, not sure if it would work with WoT TBH as those books tend to focus on only 1 MC. With WOT having so many charc, I think it would be a challenge to remember all those faces of characters you might see maybe 2-4 times over all the books

Edited October 10, 2023 by Yamezt

[books of Robert Jordan]

Quote

 Samt (Posted September 21)

 

The Last Battle is over 500 pages long.  Dumai's Wells and the defense of the White Tower against the Seanchan also get pretty significant page time.  The battle of the two rivers is kind of the exception.

 

The Last Battle: not written by Robert Jordan, so it's irrelevant.

the defense of the White Tower against the Seanchan: not written by Robert Jordan, so it's irrelevant.

Dumai's Wells (LOC) and The battle of the two rivers (TSR) (both written by Robert Jordan) are very short.

Edited October 10, 2023 by books of Robert Jordan

[Scarloc99]

15 hours ago, Mirefox said:

It’s like explaining color to a blind person; if you can’t see that there is a drastic tonal shift in the characterization of many of these characters then I suppose it makes sense that you’re so happy with how they are presented.  The defining personalities of many of these characters have been changed for TV; that’s character assassination and Matbwas one of the more egregious, along with Rand.

I mean matts story is now really interesting, he becomes most peoples fav character but that is really only from book 5 onwards, until then he is either Golumn and just mopes around getting more and more ill, or a bit of a brat, it never really made sense to me in the books why he was the one to take the dagger, to be enticed away as he was not that different to the other 2 boys, a bit of a scamp but not the kind to suddenly loot from a graveyard, TV Matt I can totally see making that choice and so that change for me made the most sense, I am not 100% on what they did with his mum an dad, I am happy to WAFO where that goes when Perrin returns to the 2 rivers. 

[Averlan]

On 10/9/2023 at 5:54 PM, Scarloc99 said:

People really do not remember the boos as well as they think, Matt in books 1 and 2 was gollum, sinking into despair and becoming more and more evil. You don’t get the Matt you love until really book 5/6, although there are glimpses in book 3

I remember, we get Mat early, then we get Mat carrying the Dagger(you know the one i mentioned that destroyed an entire city of light that was a constant fighter against the shadow) and that dagger changed his personality, it would have happened to anyone. The fact that he carried it as long as he did is a testament to his character.

 

But it this version we get a full on character assassination of Mat. You are right that the full blown Mat comes later, but I would say book 3, you know when he got up out of a sick bed after being healed by a full circle of Aes Sedai, and traveled to Tear to save Egwene,Elayne and Nyn from Black Ajah.. but I suppose that doesn't show any strength of character at all...

 

There are things that are going to be changed, you can't put the entire books into a 8 episode series. It is some of the things they choose to keep that surise me, honestly the whole warder episode it doesn't advance the plot at all, and isnt really necessary(in a book its great, in the series it wasn't need(in imo))

 

Noone has to agree with me jsut my opinion, and im not saying the series is terrible, but there are some decisions that jsut do not make sense to me

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, Averlan said:

I remember, we get Mat early, then we get Mat carrying the Dagger(you know the one i mentioned that destroyed an entire city of light that was a constant fighter against the shadow) and that dagger changed his personality, it would have happened to anyone. The fact that he carried it as long as he did is a testament to his character.

 

But it this version we get a full on character assassination of Mat. You are right that the full blown Mat comes later, but I would say book 3, you know when he got up out of a sick bed after being healed by a full circle of Aes Sedai, and traveled to Tear to save Egwene,Elayne and Nyn from Black Ajah.. but I suppose that doesn't show any strength of character at all...

 

There are things that are going to be changed, you can't put the entire books into a 8 episode series. It is some of the things they choose to keep that surise me, honestly the whole warder episode it doesn't advance the plot at all, and isnt really necessary(in a book its great, in the series it wasn't need(in imo))

 

Noone has to agree with me jsut my opinion, and im not saying the series is terrible, but there are some decisions that jsut do not make sense to me

The warder episode (I guess you mean Steppin), introduces aes sedai politics, it introduces a load of very important characters, it teaches about the bond. The bit people seem to be most upset about there, the Steppin arc, actually uses about 5-6 mins of screen time, not an episode. 

[Mirefox]

3 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

The warder episode (I guess you mean Steppin), introduces aes sedai politics, it introduces a load of very important characters, it teaches about the bond. The bit people seem to be most upset about there, the Steppin arc, actually uses about 5-6 mins of screen time, not an episode. 

And it gives us the cringiest funeral scene ever out to film, not to mention bully jumping the shark with Lan.

[Guire]

On 10/10/2023 at 10:05 AM, Scarloc99 said:

I mean matts story is now really interesting, he becomes most peoples fav character but that is really only from book 5 onwards, until then he is either Golumn and just mopes around getting more and more ill, or a bit of a brat, it never really made sense to me in the books why he was the one to take the dagger, to be enticed away as he was not that different to the other 2 boys, a bit of a scamp but not the kind to suddenly loot from a graveyard, TV Matt I can totally see making that choice and so that change for me made the most sense, I am not 100% on what they did with his mum an dad, I am happy to WAFO where that goes when Perrin returns to the 2 rivers. 

TV Mat  is not more interesting to many of us.  Him spouting old tongue in a fight to Shadar Logoth was interesting and would have set table for TV hero of horn.  Him having dagger removed by group of Aes Sedai was interesting( still possible  but unlikely). I liked his being kind of immature brat who does the right thing better than damaged kid from disfunctional family.  Also is Mat going back to Emonds Field now? Leaving his sisters there is a bad look if he is a good guy now. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Guire

[Elder_Haman]

50 minutes ago, Guire said:

Mat going back to Emonds Field now?

WAFO I suppose. But I bet he will.

[merlinfire]

I think the answer to the OP's question is pretty simple but controversial.

 

Simply put, some people in Western - and especially American - media have an idea of what it means to adapt something to match their perceptions of a specific and relatively narrow slice of what constitutes a modern audience.  This includes rewriting the "problematic" portions, squashing the component parts together into a pliable dough, and then baking it into a shape that matches their own personal views and fantasies, at great expense.

 

Fidelity to the books and pleasing the existing fanbase they hired by buying the rights to the IP, could not have been more than 4th priority.  

 

It's not a simple matter of adaptation.  The stink raised by book fans about the omission of Bombadil in LOTR for instance was minor - most readers understood that it did not serve the core plot and time was limited.

 

But what has been done in the show is far beyond such runtime-trimming measures.  Fundamental character arcs have been completely transformed, often with even the core themes of those arcs completely changed.  Major plot points which were both important when they happened, and would be important later, are simply omitted or even worse, changed for no obvious reason.  New subplots are added, despite complaining that they were constantly lacking runtime budget.  Core story themes usurped and flipped on their head.  That's not an adaptation.  That's a thorough reimagining, a full reboot of the series with a different author.  Too late to go back now.  It is what it is, and we have to accept that.  I have - I've mostly forgotten the tv show exists, I just happened to see something on reddit this morning that triggered a memory, and I wanted to stop by to see how things were going.  

 

The show was definitely written and produced for a certain demographic, and if you are among that crowd, then you have reason to rejoice.  I do not begrudge you your enjoyment.  I simply wish that it had not come at the cost of a faithful adaptation, of which we were unlikely to get more than one good shot at this decade, at least.  We will always have the books, and I will need to be content with them.  

Edited November 8, 2023 by merlinfire

[DaddyFinn]

On 11/8/2023 at 10:07 PM, merlinfire said:

I think the answer to the OP's question is pretty simple but controversial.

 

Simply put, some people in Western - and especially American - media have an idea of what it means to adapt something to match their perceptions of a specific and relatively narrow slice of what constitutes a modern audience.  This includes rewriting the "problematic" portions, squashing the component parts together into a pliable dough, and then baking it into a shape that matches their own personal views and fantasies, at great expense.

 

Fidelity to the books and pleasing the existing fanbase they hired by buying the rights to the IP, could not have been more than 4th priority.  

 

It's not a simple matter of adaptation.  The stink raised by book fans about the omission of Bombadil in LOTR for instance was minor - most readers understood that it did not serve the core plot and time was limited.

 

But what has been done in the show is far beyond such runtime-trimming measures.  Fundamental character arcs have been completely transformed, often with even the core themes of those arcs completely changed.  Major plot points which were both important when they happened, and would be important later, are simply omitted or even worse, changed for no obvious reason.  New subplots are added, despite complaining that they were constantly lacking runtime budget.  Core story themes usurped and flipped on their head.  That's not an adaptation.  That's a thorough reimagining, a full reboot of the series with a different author.  Too late to go back now.  It is what it is, and we have to accept that.  I have - I've mostly forgotten the tv show exists, I just happened to see something on reddit this morning that triggered a memory, and I wanted to stop by to see how things were going.  

 

The show was definitely written and produced for a certain demographic, and if you are among that crowd, then you have reason to rejoice.  I do not begrudge you your enjoyment.  I simply wish that it had not come at the cost of a faithful adaptation, of which we were unlikely to get more than one good shot at this decade, at least.  We will always have the books, and I will need to be content with them.  

The show is not as political as you try to make it sound like. 

[Samt]

3 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

The show is not as political as you try to make it sound like. 

When someone panders to you well, it’s harder to see the pandering.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

2 minutes ago, Samt said:

When someone panders to you well, it’s harder to see the pandering.

You do realise how insulting you are being? 

[Samt]

20 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

You do realise how insulting you are being? 

I’m calling it as I see it. If you want to be offended, that’s a you choice.

 

We have the show runners stating their political goals. We have people on this forum praising the show for changing certain political aspects.  

 

Then we have people above claiming there weren’t political changes.  Assuming that this is a blindspot caused by personal bias is actually the less offensive assumption.  The alternative is that Daddyfinn is intentionally gaslighting for his own subversive political goals.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Just now, Samt said:

I’m calling it as I see it. If you want to be offended, that’s a you choice.

 

We have the show runners stating their political goals. We have people on this forum praising the show for changing certain political aspects.  

 

Then we have people above claiming there weren’t political changes.  Assuming that this is a blindspot caused by personal bias is actually the less offensive assumption.  The alternative is that Daddyfinn is intentionally gaslighting for his own subversive political goals.

And the option that certain people have an issue because their own politics, quite unrelated to the show. It takes a heavy interpretation of what anyone has said to twist it to that the show has political goals, or an agenda. 

 

You are doing nothing more than. The single post member you come here and call the show SJW crap and leave. But being more condescending and using more words. 

 

It clearly illustrates your own position, and says little about the show. And the fact you need to insult others to protect your idea, anyone liking the show must be politically motivated otherwise how could it be a political vehicle without artistic merit, only shows weakness of your position. 

 

It is rather pitiful really. 

[Elder_Haman]

On 11/8/2023 at 12:07 PM, merlinfire said:

Fundamental character arcs have been completely transformed, often with even the core themes of those arcs completely changed. 

Give me an example of a major character whose “fundamental character arc” has been “completely transformed”. 

[Samt]

47 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Give me an example of a major character whose “fundamental character arc” has been “completely transformed”. 

Matt, Rand, Min, Egwene, Nynaeve, Perrin, Lan, Moiraine, Thom.  Name a character whose fundamental character arc hasn't been foundationally transformed.  

 

Edit: Also Siuan.  Aviendha.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Samt

[Samt]

56 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

And the option that certain people have an issue because their own politics, quite unrelated to the show. It takes a heavy interpretation of what anyone has said to twist it to that the show has political goals, or an agenda. 

 

You are doing nothing more than. The single post member you come here and call the show SJW crap and leave. But being more condescending and using more words. 

 

It clearly illustrates your own position, and says little about the show. And the fact you need to insult others to protect your idea, anyone liking the show must be politically motivated otherwise how could it be a political vehicle without artistic merit, only shows weakness of your position. 

 

It is rather pitiful really. 

And you're completely mischaracterizing my position on this board.  I first came here talking only about the book and posted on that half of the forum.  I have since migrated to posting on this half, too.  I do have serious misgivings about the show and its creators.  That doesn't make it my only issue or even the reason that I am on the boards.  I really don't have time to rehash my criticisms of the show right now, but I have explained them in detail at other points on this forum.  And while some of my criticism is about the political color of the show, I also think the show is badly written and produced without regard to political leanings.  

 

@merlinfire came here and gave a detailed explanation of his or her criticisms.  @DaddyFinn responded with literally one sentence stating that @merlinfire's interpretation of the show was essentially wrong without bothering at all to address the points that had been explicated.  How is that constructive?

 

 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

That is not what we were talking about. We were talking about the show being a political vehicle, pandering to a demographic and anyone who disagrees with you is part of that demographic and hence unreliable. 

 

Your position is factually incorrect. And the way you treat people who disagree with you is unpleasant.

[Samt]

40 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

That is not what we were talking about. We were talking about the show being a political vehicle, pandering to a demographic and anyone who disagrees with you is part of that demographic and hence unreliable. 

 

Your position is factually incorrect. And the way you treat people who disagree with you is unpleasant.

Repeating yourself doesn't make you more correct than the last time you said it.  The show is a political vehicle pandering to a specific demographic.  The showrunners have admitted.  Certain members of that demographic have acknowledged that they like it because of the changes that make it more inclusive of that demographic.  

 

I can give specific examples of how the show is a political vehicle pandering to a specific demographic, but if you don't believe the show runners when they say it is, I'm not sure why you would believe me.  

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Because I have never seen any of these so called admissions. And you repeating something does make it more correct? Making something more inclusive is not pandering to a demographic. Perhaps the concept of inclusive is one the issues you are having here. Inclusivity is not political or aimed at a demographic. 

 

But never mind, I don't have energy for this. Your political leanings do not make the show political.

[Elder_Haman]

2 hours ago, Samt said:

Matt, Rand, Min, Egwene, Nynaeve, Perrin, Lan, Moiraine, Thom.  Name a character whose fundamental character arc hasn't been foundationally transformed.  

 

Edit: Also Siuan.  Aviendha.

I will give you Min, Lan and Moiraine. But the EFF are on the same arcs as the books. The others are being adapted to allow for and help create a more intimate, less epic telling of the story. 

[Samt]

57 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I will give you Min, Lan and Moiraine. But the EFF are on the same arcs as the books. The others are being adapted to allow for and help create a more intimate, less epic telling of the story. 

I would say that pulling the sword from the stone is a critical point in Rand's arc.  It's where he declares to the world that he is the dragon and he becomes an independent force that drives his own story and is no longer controlled or directed.  He does his own research and world leaders are coming to him.  Falme doesn't achieve the same result and definitely won't given the way Falme was modified in the show. Without Tear, how does Rand make the transition from a follower to a leader?

 

He also hasn't learned how to use a sword. And despite Rafe's assurances that it's coming, it's too late to do this in the way it's done in the book.  Rand already showed us that he is perfectly capable of dispatching a significant unit of soldiers using the one power without much trouble.  He'll never be able to do that same thing with a sword, so studying the sword at this point doesn't have the same impact.  In the book, he studies the sword because he doesn't know how to use the one power and uses it as a crutch to protect himself and bridge the gap.  His connection to swords throughout the story is a representation of his conflict between wanting to be a simple man who does thinks with his own two hands and needing to be a chosen one who wields immense supernatural power.  

 

For Mat, his trips to the Finns are critical to his arc.  It's too early to know for sure, but they are definitely laying the groundwork for the Finns not to happen.  And his connection to the dagger is quite different in the story.  The dagger not being well defined as to how it works in the show has completely muddled Mat.  And if it's a permanent part of the Ashandarei, that's weird.  

 

For Perrin, giving him a wife and killing her off has fundamentally altered who he is.  It's completely ridiculous that he can ever be the same Perrin.  Killing your own wife is something that changes you forever.  

 

For Egwene, she is driven through the early part of the story by the fact that she gets to choose.  The fact that she could be the dragon takes that away.  Rage killing Renna also makes her completely different.  Her eventual victory in the white tower comes through her ability to not be broken, not by her ability to break others.  

 

Nynaeve in the early story is driven by her anger.  Changing her block to allow fear to overcome it is a fundamental change.  The point is that if she is afraid she can't channel.  She needs to be angry.  Then she overcomes the block by accepting the things she can't control while being at peace with them.  Her arc is about learning to trust.  That isn't being set up and is actively being undermined by the block being changed.  

[Mirefox]

9 hours ago, Samt said:

I’m calling it as I see it. If you want to be offended, that’s a you choice.

 

We have the show runners stating their political goals. We have people on this forum praising the show for changing certain political aspects.  

 

Then we have people above claiming there weren’t political changes.  Assuming that this is a blindspot caused by personal bias is actually the less offensive assumption.  The alternative is that Daddyfinn is intentionally gaslighting for his own subversive political goals.

 

They are absolutely blind to it.  I've said the same exact things as you.

 

If you want to see something very interesting, watch the review I post of S1E1.  The reviewer is freelance editor and she is simply amazing.  She understands writing and storytelling and breaks down the episodes very thoroughly.  She is highly critical but in a very technically proficient way.  She's also not a book "fan" and has only begun reading the series just enough to stay ahead in the books of where the show is.  It is a very interesting perspective.  I'm sure she'll be disregarded simply as a "hater" by some but her analysis is far better than any others I've seen or read.  She has reviews of the entire first season up through S2E2 so far and they do get progressively longer, but they are worth listening to in the background, though her editing is excellent as well and worth a view.