Why not follow the books more closely?

[Samt]

On 5/3/2024 at 11:44 AM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

It is not impossible that this is a deliberate "dumbing down", as one of the things WoT does not do great is be consistent with the cyclical nature of the Wheel. LTT being the First Dragon, and Rand the second, directly contradicts the cyclical narrative. If Rand is LTT reborn, LTT is Rand reborn. Plus, it in the lore, it never makes any effort to explain what the Dragon is. Or I totally missed it if it did. 

 

It could be that it was felt that Dragon always being the Dragon Reborn better conveyed the nature of the Wheel without needing to explain constantly. Just as the Shadow is always called the Dark (*shudders*) it could be a simplification of terms for consistency and to give a more solid base to the world. In the Walking Dead I always thought all the different names for the walkers really added colour, but in WoT perhaps they decided to keep terminology as easy to understand as possible. 

 

Not sure I am very convinced by that argument, and it was not a simple error in the understanding of the lore, but it certainly is a possibility. 

 

I suppose it's possible.  But it seems quite unlikely to me because it doesn't really come to mind when you ask the question in reverse.  That is, if you ask why they decided to call LTT "Dragon Reborn" instead of "Dragon," you might come up with the idea that it helps convey and dumb down the more esoteric parts of the cyclic WoT universe.  But if I said that I wanted to convey and dumb down the WoT universe for the casual show watcher, I would do a lot of other things before I would mess with LTT's title. 

 

In regards to Dragon vs. Dragon Reborn, the casual viewer just needs to know that:

 

• The Dragon was a champion of the light in ages past that failed to stop the apocalypse. 
• Now he has been sent back by the universe in a new body so he can have the chance to fix his mistakes. 

That explanation is simple, technically true according to the books if admittedly lacking nuance and detail, and sufficient to take the casual viewer through the entire plot without needing to really understand anything else about it.  Reincarnation and the cyclic ages and the deeper nature and meaning of who the dragon is and the complications of all of the parallel universes and possibilities and the metaphysics of the WoT universe in general are not only not necessary to tell the story, they also raise more questions than they answer.  The books don't really explain these things entirely and are arguably contradictory on various points although a lot of the contradiction comes down to the fact that nobody in the WoT universe speaks with absolute authority on the subject.  Many people have their own agendas and others are possibly just wrong.  

 

In other words, I think calling LTT the dragon reborn is far more complicated and confusing than calling him the dragon.  

[Gudrean]

I agree with so many things I've read here and just want to clarify what I find that should not have been done.

1. Mat and his family should have stayed exactly the same. Mat is a fan favorite and all these changes have left his ark all screwed up. Really love both actors as Mat.

2. Perrin is Eeyore enough, he didn't need a wife death scene added. I do love how his role is being portrayed by Marcus tho!

3. Moraine and Lan issues = not a fan. Their warder/aes sedai love is so special it just isn't touchable IMO.

4. Not using Saidin/Saidar! I can forgive not using all the "Blood and Bloody Ashes" as I would have liked, but The Sais are a must.

[Kaleb]

12 hours ago, Samt said:

Reincarnation and the cyclic ages and the deeper nature and meaning of who the dragon is and the complications of all of the parallel universes and possibilities and the metaphysics of the WoT universe in general are not only not necessary to tell the story, they also raise more questions than they answer.  The books don't really explain these things entirely and are arguably contradictory on various points although a lot of the contradiction comes down to the fact that nobody in the WoT universe speaks with absolute authority on the subject.  Many people have their own agendas and others are possibly just wrong.  

As Ali on the Wheel Takes podcast is fond of saying, unanswered questions are the lifeblood of television writing. Answer a question definitively and any plot points related to it can quickly become far less compelling. For one famous example, David Lynch never wanted viewers to know who killed Laura Palmer, and when Twin Peaks was forced by the execs to reveal that answer early in the second season, it left the show reeling until they re-focused on the Black Lodge by the end of that long and weirdly boring season.

 

As you note, Robert Jordan's books are full of that same dynamic. The unanswered questions about the history and lore, and some of the loose character threads that never get resolved, are part of why re-reads are so much fun. As it is, we readers perk up (in annoyance, perhaps!) when we hear the show refer to LTT as The Dragon Reborn: We're asking "why?" again, just like the new show-only audience. To be clear, I'm not suggesting using this terminology was necessary or a good choice, I'm just explaining why it might have been made, and why it doesn't bother me or give any kind of indication that the writers don't know the book story.

Edited May 6 by Kaleb

[henrywho]

I've been away, several issues not the least of which a de-laminating tyre causing 1000's in damage to my X5.

Paying work restarting, the boss away for 6 weeks and a desperate need to invest more time on my own writing.

I've had a quick perusal of a few messages here and it's clear this thread is going nowhere.

 

My final statement, anyone who has read the books and believes the TV series is an acceptable adaptation of the books is NOT a fan of the books and is in desperate need of psychological evaluation.

 

The books are awesome !

The show is barely average !

EVERY person who has influence over the scripting of the show needs to be PUBLICLY FLOGGED !

 

It's that simple !

 

Ciao for now.

Edited May 7 by henrywho
typo

[Elder_Haman]

6 minutes ago, henrywho said:

My final statement, anyone who has read the books and believes the TV series is an acceptable adaptation of the books is NOT a fan of the books and is in desperate need of psychological evaluation.

 

This is absurd. You don't get to judge whether someone else is a fan. 

[DigificWriter]

15 hours ago, henrywho said:

anyone who has read the books and believes the TV series is an acceptable adaptation of the books is NOT a fan of the books and is in desperate need of psychological evaluation.

 

It's not a very smart idea to directly insult the people who run this site and host these forums with a comment like this.

Edited May 8 by DigificWriter

[Highcommander]

On 5/7/2024 at 6:33 PM, henrywho said:

My final statement, anyone who has read the books and believes the TV series is an acceptable adaptation of the books is NOT a fan of the books and is in desperate need of psychological evaluation.

 

^ 100% this. The show is an absolute dumpster fire. There are the basic casting issues, character changes, plot deviations, condensed storytelling, visual representations, and so-on. Fans EXPECTED these. Still as BAD as these make the show feel to fans, nothing compares to the 3 major sins the show commits:

 

1. Tone and Atmosphere - The world-building / themes / depth / detail that is so loved in the books really make the show feel "unalive" by comparison.  The closest I can describe it is as if the visual direction was decided by people who heard about the books 3rd or 4th hand. Gone are beloved locations that feel real... places that conjure instant mental imagery. Places like Caemlyn, Andor, Cairhien, Falme, Tear, Tar Valon, Far Madding. If they exist in the show, they just feel like a set, unalive and unimportant. Gone is the struggle between light and shadow. Gone are the concepts of fate and free will. Gone is the struggle of power and the burden of leadership. All replaced with what? Nothing of substance, so why was the decision to remove them made?

 

2. Character development doesn't exist anymore - The books were so full of character development that every chapter had something to look forward to. Coming of Age of the central characters of Emond's Field played a huge role, buried by the show. Evolution through Adversity, especially for Rand wielding an immense burden is gone; leaving Rand look uninteresting and mostly unlikeable by the viewer. The interpersonal relationships are all "off" so badly, they give literal cringe vibes while watching. Friendships, romances, rivalries... they are all wrong every last one of them. There are no self-discovery and identity anymore... instead of quests, grappling with identities and destines, we are given exposition dumps and lazy "it just works that way" style story telling.  This deep and dynamic developments are the reason the book series resonates so profoundly with its readers. It is the reason the show so profoundly misses the mark. 

 

3. The broken lore - The rich and detailed mythology that Robert Jordan created carried the book series. The show goes beyond simplifying or overlook these elements, it directly attacks that lore. It is everywhere you look... the Dragon vrs. The Dragon Reborn. Lews Therin Telamon. Artur Hawkwing... The Heroes of the Horn. Someshta, the Green Man, the blight... its all just a slap in the face. It's almost as if the show was written as differently as possible from the books so that WoT fans would be upset with it rather than just say it was "average." Perhaps, "unwatchable bad" was what they were going for. 

[Elder_Haman]

3 hours ago, Highcommander said:

 

^ 100% this. The show is an absolute dumpster fire. There are the basic casting issues, character changes, plot deviations, condensed storytelling, visual representations, and so-on. Fans EXPECTED these. Still as BAD as these make the show feel to fans, nothing compares to the 3 major sins the show commits:

 

1. Tone and Atmosphere - The world-building / themes / depth / detail that is so loved in the books really make the show feel "unalive" by comparison.  The closest I can describe it is as if the visual direction was decided by people who heard about the books 3rd or 4th hand. Gone are beloved locations that feel real... places that conjure instant mental imagery. Places like Caemlyn, Andor, Cairhien, Falme, Tear, Tar Valon, Far Madding. If they exist in the show, they just feel like a set, unalive and unimportant. Gone is the struggle between light and shadow. Gone are the concepts of fate and free will. Gone is the struggle of power and the burden of leadership. All replaced with what? Nothing of substance, so why was the decision to remove them made?

 

2. Character development doesn't exist anymore - The books were so full of character development that every chapter had something to look forward to. Coming of Age of the central characters of Emond's Field played a huge role, buried by the show. Evolution through Adversity, especially for Rand wielding an immense burden is gone; leaving Rand look uninteresting and mostly unlikeable by the viewer. The interpersonal relationships are all "off" so badly, they give literal cringe vibes while watching. Friendships, romances, rivalries... they are all wrong every last one of them. There are no self-discovery and identity anymore... instead of quests, grappling with identities and destines, we are given exposition dumps and lazy "it just works that way" style story telling.  This deep and dynamic developments are the reason the book series resonates so profoundly with its readers. It is the reason the show so profoundly misses the mark. 

 

3. The broken lore - The rich and detailed mythology that Robert Jordan created carried the book series. The show goes beyond simplifying or overlook these elements, it directly attacks that lore. It is everywhere you look... the Dragon vrs. The Dragon Reborn. Lews Therin Telamon. Artur Hawkwing... The Heroes of the Horn. Someshta, the Green Man, the blight... its all just a slap in the face. It's almost as if the show was written as differently as possible from the books so that WoT fans would be upset with it rather than just say it was "average." Perhaps, "unwatchable bad" was what they were going for. 

I’m sorry you dislike it so much. Obviously, your feelings are not shared by everyone here. 

[books of Robert Jordan]

On 5/8/2024 at 3:53 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

It's not a very smart idea to directly insult the people who run this site and host these forums with a comment like this.

 

WOT is often compared to GOT, so: Ran skipped entire seasons (of GOT), Linda only watched a few episodes (of GOT)...

Edited May 25 by books of Robert Jordan
clarification

[Jake Sykwalker]

On 5/7/2024 at 5:33 PM, henrywho said:

I've been away, several issues not the least of which a de-laminating tyre causing 1000's in damage to my X5.

Paying work restarting, the boss away for 6 weeks and a desperate need to invest more time on my own writing.

I've had a quick perusal of a few messages here and it's clear this thread is going nowhere.

 

My final statement, anyone who has read the books and believes the TV series is an acceptable adaptation of the books is NOT a fan of the books and is in desperate need of psychological evaluation.

 

The books are awesome !

The show is barely average !

EVERY person who has influence over the scripting of the show needs to be PUBLICLY FLOGGED !

 

It's that simple !

 

Ciao for now.

 

Sorry to hear about your vehicle.  It is never fun when that happens.

 

I wouldn't want to speak for others and their enjoyment of media.  We all have things we like and dislike and what we enjoy is a personal thing.  If people enjoy this adaptation that is great.  

 

Having said that for me this is a very poor adaptation.  In my opinion they missed the boat completely and wandered into insulting territory.  It is also fairly poorly written and produced.  Their chief problem is that the writers missed the entire spirit of the books and replaced it with cheap cliches, manufactured drama and their own life experiences.   That seems to be a problem with a LOT of writers nowadays across much of media.

 

Lots of movies, or books have multiple 'remakes' and 'adaptations' with each having their own dedicated following.  Lots of people like to dump on the Bakshi Lord of the Rings movie, but it is what got me interested in the books and the cartoons when I was a kid.  I absolutely loved the LOTR cartoons when I was a kid, but they aren't exactly masterpieces.  They did however have the spirit of the books in them and hit their target of making easy to digest LOTR content for kids.  

[Vrath]

On 6/3/2024 at 10:20 AM, Jake Sykwalker said:

 

Sorry to hear about your vehicle.  It is never fun when that happens.

 

I wouldn't want to speak for others and their enjoyment of media.  We all have things we like and dislike and what we enjoy is a personal thing.  If people enjoy this adaptation that is great.  

 

Having said that for me this is a very poor adaptation.  In my opinion they missed the boat completely and wandered into insulting territory.  It is also fairly poorly written and produced.  Their chief problem is that the writers missed the entire spirit of the books and replaced it with cheap cliches, manufactured drama and their own life experiences.   That seems to be a problem with a LOT of writers nowadays across much of media.

 

Lots of movies, or books have multiple 'remakes' and 'adaptations' with each having their own dedicated following.  Lots of people like to dump on the Bakshi Lord of the Rings movie, but it is what got me interested in the books and the cartoons when I was a kid.  I absolutely loved the LOTR cartoons when I was a kid, but they aren't exactly masterpieces.  They did however have the spirit of the books in them and hit their target of making easy to digest LOTR content for kids.  

I absolutely agree, to me it's unwatchable. And I was sooo excited. When GoT was hot in the 1st 5 seasons I kept telling my family, coworkers, friends if they made a WoT show on HBO like they've done with GoT it would be amazing. 

 

I thought for sure Rafe is a "huge" fan, Sarah has read the books almost as much as me, of course it will honor the source material, along with RJ and since Amazon wants their own GoT it will follow the blueprint they laid out for success with its first 5 seasons. 

 

And maybe if it was made in 2017 that might've been true.

 

Sadly once I heard about the changes and saw the previews I knew that wasn't their plan for WoT. They want to tell their own WoT story set in RJs world. 

 

Which clearly wasn't meant for me and those like me who wanted to see a faithful adoption of a series we grew up with and love. 

 

I'm glad some people enjoy it.

Edited June 7 by Vrath

[DigificWriter]

16 hours ago, Vrath said:

They want to tell their own WoT story set in RJs world. 

 

Except they're not even remotely doing that.

[Samt]

2 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Except they're not even remotely doing that.

Haven’t you stated you don’t like the books and haven’t finished them?  How are you even able to make a statement like this?

[DigificWriter]

57 minutes ago, Samt said:

Haven’t you stated you don’t like the books and haven’t finished them?  How are you even able to make a statement like this?

 

Because I follow a number of people/podcasts/YouTube Channels that are exclusively hosted by super-hardcore book fans whose various analyses of the TV series hinge on the numerous examples of ways in which the TV series is absolutely telling the story of the novels.

[DojoToad]

On 6/7/2024 at 2:33 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

Except they're not even remotely doing that.

Correct.  The show is telling the story from the books but from the perspective of minor and periphery characters.  Changes the feel a lot.

[books of Robert Jordan]

On 6/10/2024 at 12:48 PM, DojoToad said:

The show is telling the story from the books but from the perspective of minor and periphery characters.  Changes the feel a lot.

 

Never heard that one so far, and even before S1 "It's a new turning etc." was the main propaganda I mean, promotion.

 

And:

 

Robert Jordan: "It's my story, guys. If you have ideas, write your own stories."

 

That settles everything, I think.

 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Unless you are paying him for the privilege, then I believe that he is on record as intimating that he would take the money and run.

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Unless you are paying him for the privilege, then I believe that he is on record as intimating that he would take the money and run.

And that he knew it would be way different. 

[DojoToad]

On 6/22/2024 at 5:55 AM, books of Robert Jordan said:

 

Never heard that one so far, and even before S1 "It's a new turning etc." was the main propaganda I mean, promotion.

 

And:

 

Robert Jordan: "It's my story, guys. If you have ideas, write your own stories."

 

That settles everything, I think.

 

I never bought into the 'new turning' explanation.  To me, it is very obviously Jordan's story - characters have the same names, major events are similar enough, and the world is very recognizable (except for the extremely undersized Ogier 😉).

 

That is where my comment comes from - it is Jordan's story with lots of changes.  POV flips, added events and characters, missing or delayed characters, events shifting to other characters, etc.  I like some of the changes, dislike more of them, and hate the show's execution in general - but it is the WoT as interpreted by Rafe and company.