Rewatching season 1 before season 2 starts

[Elder_Haman]

4 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

I made this point a while back in the books Nyn sneaks up on Lan and surprises him. So this is a direct callback to the books. He gives her a massive nod of respect for both that, and being able to track him. It is the start of him seeing her as more then just another aes sedai apprentice. 

I understand. But there’s a huge difference between “Nyn is a great tracker” and “Nyn is stealthy enough to sneak up on a well-trained Warder and put a blade to his throat.”

 

Allowing her to get close enough to kill Lan without being seen diminishes Lan significantly. 

[expat]

The difference from the book to the series was that in the series, Moiraine was dying and Lan was both in great pain through the bond and totally concentrating on ways to try to keep her (and himself) alive. That he wasn't very concerned about perimeter defense is understandable since they were both going to be dead in a few hours.  Given the different situation, the fact that Nyn got within a few feet in the book, and next to him in the series doesn't seem to me to be a terrible injustice.

[Elder_Haman]

38 minutes ago, expat said:

The difference from the book to the series was that in the series, Moiraine was dying and Lan was both in great pain through the bond and totally concentrating on ways to try to keep her (and himself) alive. That he wasn't very concerned about perimeter defense is understandable since they were both going to be dead in a few hours.  Given the different situation, the fact that Nyn got within a few feet in the book, and next to him in the series doesn't seem to me to be a terrible injustice.

I understand the arguments. They even make sense. But absolutely nothing would have been lost from that scene if the writers had allowed Lan to notice her approaching. That would have elevated Lan and would have been an even stronger nod to the books. 
 

We can agree to disagree on this one. 

[nsmallw]

What about episode eight when Lan needed Nynaeve to give him Moiraine's "tell". 

 

I've never liked that or that Lan seemed particularly under-used. 

 

 

[Skipp]

2 minutes ago, nsmallw said:

What about episode eight when Lan needed Nynaeve to give him Moiraine's "tell". 

 

I've never liked that or that Lan seemed particularly under-used. 

 

 

Agreed, the "Tell: was not a good plot device.

 

I believe Lan was underused in episode 8 because Daniel Henney had other filming obligations and couldn't be on set.  That might be faulty memory as I don't have the source on hand.

[Elder_Haman]

40 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Agreed, the "Tell: was not a good plot device.

 

I believe Lan was underused in episode 8 because Daniel Henney had other filming obligations and couldn't be on set.  That might be faulty memory as I don't have the source on hand.

For sure.

If they were going to split up the EFF, Lan and Moiraine should have both been with Rand. Lan could have been split off pre-final battle by some contrivance of Ishy's. (And it would have given another opportunity to show Lan's character who would have never allowed himself to be parted from Moiraine, knowing what she was about to do.)  

Edited August 31, 2023 by Elder_Haman

[Cipher]

20 hours ago, Ralph said:

and the art attached to the ep all has him in the ways with them

 

(and the trefoil leaf to open them, though I don't know why that was cut) 

We don’t really know why the writers took out the leaf key for the Ways, but speculation is to keep them locked to just anybody.  Watchers will understand only people with access to the OP can use them.

[Skipp]

3 minutes ago, Cipher said:

We don’t really know why the writers took out the leaf key for the Ways, but speculation is to keep them locked to just anybody.  Watchers will understand only people with access to the OP can use them.

Also possible why they couldn't open it to go get Mat.  If channeling is the only way to open the ways and channeling risks summoning Ma'chin.....  Certainly plausible

[DaddyFinn]

4 minutes ago, Cipher said:

We don’t really know why the writers took out the leaf key for the Ways, but speculation is to keep them locked to just anybody.  Watchers will understand only people with access to the OP can use them.

Padan Fain used a trefoil leaf key based on cut material. Maybe we'll see it in S2?

[Ralph]

12 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Padan Fain used a trefoil leaf key based on cut material. Maybe we'll see it in S2?

yes. my question was why it was cut since it clearly was there in the original script and filming

[expat]

4 hours ago, Skipp said:

Agreed, the "Tell: was not a good plot device.

 

I believe Lan was underused in episode 8 because Daniel Henney had other filming obligations and couldn't be on set.  That might be faulty memory as I don't have the source on hand.

Agree that Lan's usage in Episode 8 didn't make sense.  Moiraine was not protecting him by leaving him behind since if she died, so would he.  He was safer if he was with her where he could possibly save her life.

 

If they were going to have the Steppin arc, they needed to follow through the consequences throughout the rest of the series.

[Ralph]

8 minutes ago, expat said:

Agree that Lan's usage in Episode 8 didn't make sense.  Moiraine was not protecting him by leaving him behind since if she died, so would he.  He was safer if he was with her where he could possibly save her life.

 

If they were going to have the Steppin arc, they needed to follow through the consequences throughout the rest of the series.

 

She discussed releasing the bond with Alanna at one point. Is it possible she has done that and Lan mistook it for masking

[Ralph]

7 hours ago, expat said:

Agree that Lan's usage in Episode 8 didn't make sense.  Moiraine was not protecting him by leaving him behind since if she died, so would he.  He was safer if he was with her where he could possibly save her life.

 

If they were going to have the Steppin arc, they needed to follow through the consequences throughout the rest of the series.

 

was just finishing my re watch yesterday before S2 and I noticed that in some of the concept art it looks like Lan is with them. So was this a late change as well? 

 

 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

16 hours ago, Skipp said:

Agreed, the "Tell: was not a good plot device

I haven’t been able to make sense of this, perhaps you or someone can tell me what I’m missing. Do we ever learn what “the tell” is? Or how it’s possible that her long term bonded warder could have been unaware of it?

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

I haven’t been able to make sense of this, perhaps you or someone can tell me what I’m missing. Do we ever learn what “the tell” is? Or how it’s possible that her long term bonded warder could have been unaware of it?

TV Lan is not book Lan. 

[Scarloc99]

On 8/31/2023 at 11:16 PM, expat said:

Agree that Lan's usage in Episode 8 didn't make sense.  Moiraine was not protecting him by leaving him behind since if she died, so would he.  He was safer if he was with her where he could possibly save her life.

 

If they were going to have the Steppin arc, they needed to follow through the consequences throughout the rest of the series.

I mean they are, longer term, in the books Moraine and Lan are in constant disagreement about her own safety and how reckless she is, remember she goes off to face one of the forsaken on her own. So her going off into the blight on her own makes perfect sense. 

[Mirefox]

On 9/1/2023 at 5:27 AM, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

I haven’t been able to make sense of this, perhaps you or someone can tell me what I’m missing. Do we ever learn what “the tell” is? Or how it’s possible that her long term bonded warder could have been unaware of it?

 

Like it or not, there is a very clear pattern in this show that is a woman can do something better than a man, she will.  It explains why Nyn could sneak up on Lan, it explains why Nyn could see a "tell" that Lan couldn't, and it even explains why it seems Nyn has put more time in with the sword than Rand (Nyn, who abhored swords and fighting in the book).  

 

People get irked by this observation but if you're asking "why" to this show, this answers so many questions.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

21 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

 

Like it or not, there is a very clear pattern in this show that is a woman can do something better than a man, she will.  It explains why Nyn could sneak up on Lan, it explains why Nyn could see a "tell" that Lan couldn't, and it even explains why it seems Nyn has put more time in with the sword than Rand (Nyn, who abhored swords and fighting in the book).  

 

People get irked by this observation but if you're asking "why" to this show, this answers so many questions.

I think actually people get irked about how threatened some people act because a female character is doing well.

 

I mean just because Logain is a woman, she gets to kill a very powerful Aes Sedai and her strength outshines everyone til Nynaeve. And the show really concentrates on her noble motivations, her people skills and her ability, in a way that the books do not. Why is that such a problem? Just because she is a woman that kicking ass on screen?

 

Your explanations only explain certain things that you make a big deal about, and you are really quiet about anything does not fit your narrative. 

[Mirefox]

3 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I think actually people get irked about how threatened some people act because a female character is doing well.

 

I mean just because Logain is a woman, she gets to kill a very powerful Aes Sedai and her strength outshines everyone til Nynaeve. And the show really concentrates on her noble motivations, her people skills and her ability, in a way that the books do not. Why is that such a problem? Just because she is a woman that kicking ass on screen?

 

Your explanations only explain certain things that you make a big deal about, and you are really quiet about anything does not fit your narrative. 

 

I'm a bit confused about what you're saying with Logain.

 

I'm also confused why you seem to think I have a problem with strong females.  Strong females are great.  Mary Sues are not.  It's cool that Nyn tracks Lan.  He's rightfully impressed.  It is ludicrous in book terms that she gets a knife to his throat.  I love what Nyn and especially Elayne ultimate learn to do with their skills, but we shouldn't have a mass healing in season one - especially as a first time chanelling.  And I'm sorry, but if you're going to defend the "tell" line and make it seem like there's any reason at all that it makes sense that Nyn can track Moiraine in a was Lan hasn't noticed for 20 years, that's just asinine.

[Elder_Haman]

37 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

 

Like it or not, there is a very clear pattern in this show that is a woman can do something better than a man, she will.  It explains why Nyn could sneak up on Lan, it explains why Nyn could see a "tell" that Lan couldn't, and it even explains why it seems Nyn has put more time in with the sword than Rand (Nyn, who abhored swords and fighting in the book).  

 

People get irked by this observation but if you're asking "why" to this show, this answers so many questions.

I understand your point. But I keep coming back to the fact that at the end of the day, the Wheel of Time is about balance and duality. As Rand comes into his power, I think you're going to see some of that shift a bit.

 

We'll see.

[Mirefox]

5 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I understand your point. But I keep coming back to the fact that at the end of the day, the Wheel of Time is about balance and duality. As Rand comes into his power, I think you're going to see some of that shift a bit.

 

We'll see.

 

I hope so, but they've upped the ante because now he has to compete with Super-Saiyan Nyn's mass healings and the women at Tarwin's gap.  He'll need a Dumai's Wells moment.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

3 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

 

I'm a bit confused about what you're saying with Logain.

 

I'm also confused why you seem to think I have a problem with strong females.  Strong females are great.  Mary Sues are not.  It's cool that Nyn tracks Lan.  He's rightfully impressed.  It is ludicrous in book terms that she gets a knife to his throat.  I love what Nyn and especially Elayne ultimate learn to do with their skills, but we shouldn't have a mass healing in season one - especially as a first time chanelling.  And I'm sorry, but if you're going to defend the "tell" line and make it seem like there's any reason at all that it makes sense that Nyn can track Moiraine in a was Lan hasn't noticed for 20 years, that's just asinine.

You cannot have it both ways. Either the changes are bad writing, so the feminism motivation you assign to it does not matter, or the changes are not bad, so the feminism motivation you assign to it does not matter. 

 

I don't get the "tell" thing, if I had to guess I'd say it was just Nynaeve annoying Lan, but I have no idea at all. 

 

The point I'm trying to make is that many people, like you, are arguing the writing is bad because it is feminist motivated, and that good changes are bad because they are feminist, so ergo feminism is bad and bad for the writing and bad for the plot. Meh, don't feel I am explaining this well. 

 

But what I mean is that the motivation for changes or features is completely different issue to how they are implemented, but many tie them together so that no matter what they can bash the showrunner. While ignoring Mat's mother, Logain's greater role, or anything that does not fit into this narrative of anti-feminsim.

[Mirefox]

3 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

You cannot have it both ways. Either the changes are bad writing, so the feminism motivation you assign to it does not matter, or the changes are not bad, so the feminism motivation you assign to it does not matter. 

 

I don't get the "tell" thing, if I had to guess I'd say it was just Nynaeve annoying Lan, but I have no idea at all. 

 

The point I'm trying to make is that many people, like you, are arguing the writing is bad because it is feminist motivated, and that good changes are bad because they are feminist, so ergo feminism is bad and bad for the writing and bad for the plot. Meh, don't feel I am explaining this well. 

 

But what I mean is that the motivation for changes or features is completely different issue to how they are implemented, but many tie them together so that no matter what they can bash the showrunner. While ignoring Mat's mother, Logain's greater role, or anything that does not fit into this narrative of anti-feminsim.

 

Yes, it's a hard conversation to have online and not always easy to elucidate.

 

Let me try it this way, by asking a simple yes/no question:

 

In the books, would Nyn have been able to sneak up to Lan and get a knife to his throat?

[BookMattBetterThanShow]

4 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

 

Yes, it's a hard conversation to have online and not always easy to elucidate.

 

Let me try it this way, by asking a simple yes/no question:

 

In the books, would Nyn have been able to sneak up to Lan and get a knife to his throat?

nope

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

6 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

 

Yes, it's a hard conversation to have online and not always easy to elucidate.

 

Let me try it this way, by asking a simple yes/no question:

 

In the books, would Nyn have been able to sneak up to Lan and get a knife to his throat?

I would imagine not, though if you remember he had a lot on his plate at that moment. But no, for all Nynaeve's tracking skills, I would not have said she should have been able to sneak up on Lan.

 

Let me ask you a question in return. Did this set up a visually compelling dramatic surprise, a tense cliffhanger, and the opportunity for humour and character building where Nynaeve does try to stab him (which he foils easily). And a small follow up question, if yes, is there any need to look further for motivation, and if no (it was bad writing) is there any need to look further if we accept that is what they were trying to do?