Is RJ a mysogynist or what?

[Zardi]

If you don't want spoilers, then logically you should not be roaming this forum. The structured forum (below this one) has book-restricted topics that you might be interested in.

[torrente]

I don't think he is a misogynist' date=' but he is a sexist. The scenes between Mat and Tylin clearly demonstrated that, and I'm always astonished when people say they found those scene's funny. As a result of those scenes and the subsequent reactions of other characters, I truly began to dislike Jordan as a person. I mean I began to dislike the series between TFoH and CoT, but that is when I stopped liking him.

 

I have found that one of the worst things a human can do is burning books since in essence you are trying to destroy knowledge, and yet with ACoS, I literally wanted to burn the book. I didn't but the desire was strong, and I had to stop reading for a time before I could finish the book. I went online to see if others found the scenes as offensive as I did. There were a few people, but most people thought they were the best things since "sliced bread." I was dumbfounded.

 

Those scenes made me wonder if I went about reading fantasy literature wrong. Am I supposed to read the books and only draw the conclusions that the author tells me to draw (i.e. do as I'm told)? Or am I supposed to read the facts presented by the author and draw my own conclusions? Every fantasy author I have read has tried to impart a message of "this is right and that is wrong." Some have even gone so far as telling us mistakes and poor decisions on the part of the main characters were not their faults or were the right decisions, even though it was their fault and their mistake. And I have always found myself agreeing or disagreeing with fantasy authors on their perceptions on certain issues. Is that the wrong way to approach it? Should I just say "It's the author's world, so it is the way the author says?" Because sometimes my disagreement with an author causes me to stop liking a story I had enjoyed up until that point.

 

Mat with Tylin is the perfect example. Through a series of humiliating events Mat is essentially sexually assaulted repeatedly. And from his and other character PoV, Jordan just brushes aside the assaults by saying he got his just deserts. In fact he has Mat's "love of his life" constantly throwing the violations back in his face by calling him "toy." He actually had him mourn Tylin's death. He paints them as comical and a sort of balancing of Karma for all his womanizing. Which reminds me, how many women has he slept with? The only one I remember is the darkfriend aiel. He danced with a lot of girls, but I don't actually remember him bedding them.

 

Even if he did bed them, they CHOSE to sleep with him. He spent money, time, effort (usually in the form of dancing) to get them to like him, and they chose to sleep with him. We saw plenty of women reject him. If they chose to sleep with him because he danced well, then that was their choice. He never deprived them of their free will, nor did he force them against their free will. After Cairhein he certainly had the means. He had the Band of 3,000-6,000 soldiers, and he could have had his soldiers drag any "bar wench" into a room, undress them at knife point, and had sex with them. Yet he didn't. But Jordan wants us to believe that Tylin using her servants and soldiers to undress, starve him, and/or hold him at knife point was the same as him dancing with a girl and her choosing to sleep with him.

 

Mat had no choice. She was a queen with an army and control over the whole city. She could force him to do what she wanted and she did. She didn't care that he was begging and pleading with her not to do it. She didn't care that he practically wept the day after one such attack. She took what she wanted and there was nothing Mat could do about it. It was appalling. And yet people are quoting it as their favorite scenes.

 

And yet this is not the problem. No! Jordan says the reason Mat is upset is because "he's supposed to do the chasing." It's not because he said "no", and she took him anyway. It's not because he begged her not to when taken at knife point. It's not because he was deprived food for days so he would be forced to sleep with her. It's because he is a man and is supposed to do the chasing. Or that's what is written ... just deserts. It's funny ... :x

 

Add to this that Jordan is trying to tell us that bonding a man against his will is akin to getting raped. Feel sorry for Rand, and the violation he has suffered. But let us all laugh at Mat as he is forced against his will to have sex with someone he wouldn't touch with a ten meter cattle prod. You know ACTUAL sexual assault.

 

So am I reading the books wrong? One person I know that reads TWoT actually once said to me "My favorite fight scene was the fight between Lan and Ryn." I responded "How can that be your favorite fight scene, you didn't even see it?" And you know what he said, "Well yeah, but it was awesome in my head." So am I missing something? Am I supposed to not read the text on the pages? Am I supposed to give credit to Jordan for my imagination? Am I supposed to read what I "want" to be there and not what is actually written? Should I take the part of my mind screaming at how wrong this is, shove it in a corner, and just laugh at the scenes?[/quote']

 

I think you do have to read what is there, and a certain level of interpretation is left to the reader, but you cannot ignore things that you find disagreeable, no.

[Roland Deschain]

I think some of you guys are overreacting, sure there are moments in the story where women are put in a bad light in comparison to men. The most apparent reason for this is the fact that the three central characters are men, so of course theyll tend to be strong individuals as they carry most of the story. Also, most of the notable women we meet are either 1. Nobles, who nearly always have their head up their asses regardless of gender. 2. Aes Sedai, who believe firmly in their superiority over not just men but everyone else for that matter (at least in the Reds case). Or 3. Young women, who tend to make rash decisions. Not because they are women, but because they are young.

As I see it, if you want to look at it as sexism then go right ahead, but the story is generally centered on men (Mat, Rand, Perrin), and the books are written by a man, so of course there will be some bias, intentional or no. My girlfriend read the books and had no problem with them, in fact she enjoyed the fact that women actually play a role in this series, unlike many others in the fantasy genre.

 

Sorry for the lack of apostrophies by the way, my keyboard is rather the worse for wear at the moment

[Orange Fescue]

Regarding Mat and Tylin, I can see both interpretations of the relationship given above but have thought of a third possibility. Mat is ta'veren so the Wheel uses him to correct or manipulate the weaving of the Age Lace--people and events alter their behavior in response to his presence because the Wheel needs it, regardless of what he and the people around him want. The whole time Mat was in Ebou Dar, he wanted to leave, largely so he could get Elayne and Nynaeve somewhere safe. Despite that, the Wheel needed Mat and the girls in Ebou Dar because 1) the bowl of the winds (needed to fix the weather and save the world) hadn't been found and 2) the Seanchan and Mat's future wife had not arrived yet. Was the Wheel altering Tylin's behavior to keep Mat in Ebou Dar until what needed to be done was done? A couple of the characters, including Tylin's son, were shocked when they found out Mat wasn't thrilled with the relationship, suggesting Tylin wasn't behaving normally. Most of us seem to have taken "not behaving normally" to mean a violation of Ebou Dari social norms but is it also a violation of Tylin's normal behavior and personality? In other words, was Tylin being forced into the relationship by Mat's ta'veren-ness while Mat was being forced into it by Tylin?

[Guest Anonymous!]

Torrente: Sorry about the spoilers, I forget sometimes that people haven't read through CoT.

 

Wanderer: Thank you, at least I know I'm not that crazy :)

 

Zardi: I didn't like the "Forced bonding" either, but it didn't inspire nearly the outrage it did when I read Mat and Tylin. Mainly because the One Power and Warders are fake, and sexual assault is real.

 

Orange Fescue: I don't doubt that it was the Wheel pulling on Tylin, Mat, Elayne, etc. to stay in Ebou Dar, but I fail to see how that changes Tylin's actions. At most, that changes her motives, but it doesn't change what the text says happened.

 

To the others: Mat confronted her about having to stop this relationship, she pulled out a knife held it to his throat, cut off his clothing, he pleaded with her not to do this, she had sex with him in spite of his pleading, and when he was upset afterwards she said "you enjoyed yourself."

 

How many examples have we seen in our society that a big man physically takes a woman, rips off her clothes, has sex with her, and then afterwards when she is crying says, "Oh shut up! You know you liked it. You were asking for it the way you were dressed." Often times the response by the woman is "You raped me."

 

That is almost exactly what happened to Mat, but instead of the normal response we got "Because I'm a guy and I'm supposed to do the chasing." What?! Apparently in Randland when men say "no" it means "yes." Apparently in Randland women are so physically inferior that the couldn't force a man to do anything without the One Power, and men are so mentally inferior to women that they actually don't know what they want.

 

He didn't want to have sex with her. (stop)

He said "no." (stop)

She forced him to anyway.(stop)

 

That is sexual assault according to all the laws that I know of on the subject. It's about consent. It's not about attraction, it's not about physical reactions, and it's not about what they were wearing. It's about "Yes" and "No."

 

But in Jordan's world, he has to make up a violation equal to sexual assault since apparently he believes that men don't know what they want, and are so physically superior to women that they will remain in complete physical control at all times and all circumstances.

 

So just to clarify for all those people out there who are confused on the "yes/no" thing. If you meet a person and would like to have sex with them, and they say "No!", do not take out a knife, hold it to their throats, rip off their clothes and have sex with them. If you do, you have a very good chance of going to jail. Got it.

[Tenshin_Xo]

The point is it was SUPPOSED to bother you. Our world is a dysfunctional one, and so is the one the characters live in. Bad things happen, this is an honest way to use fantasy to parallel the real world. Look at the reaction of the 'girls' to Mat's plight. They were initially of the opinion that it was his fault, but realized that he was the victim, and offered to help him as diplomatically as possible, because they still needed Tylin's good graces.

 

Granted things don't happen under these circumstances in the real world, but events like this DO happen, and this is a way for the reader to see the situation through the victims eyes.

 

Sexist? Not hardly, if anything its a combination of compassion, empathy, and the blunt honesty of a 2x4 to the face. Now you can understand the feelings of a rape victim or sexual harassment victim when they aren't believed.

 

Mat's a special case too with Aes Sedai, we have here a group who has had near absolute control over those around them, because people were afraid of what these women would do to them. Mat's a new wrinkle, and has no fear of them, moreover he's sick of thier haughty attitudes and the deference people show them.

[Swigaro]

Jordan has created a world where, for the last 3000 years (longer than our recorded history) the only constant in life has been that any man, great or small, weak or strong, can at any moment, without warning go completely insane and start destroying any and everything around them. The relationship between men and women that he has presented are simply a reaction to the constant presented by the presence of the taint. Women, after the breaking of the world were forced into leadership positions simply because there were no trustworthy 'Electable' men. Now we are presented with that world, 3000 years later, and things are changing. Men are no longer dangerous, in the way they once were (which is not to say they are not dangerous). The problem is that these patterns of behavior are so ingrained in the culture, that people, men and women are unwilling or unable to adjust. I don't see this as truly misogyny, or sexism, simply a hypothetical view of a world where a single important constant is very different than our own.

 

The issue that Jordan seems to be dealing with is communication. How much simpler would everyone's life be if all of our main characters just sat down and had a rational conversation. In fact, look what happens in WH when Rand finally lays a plan out and asks for help. Perhaps the greatest victory since the bore was sealed. It is however this straining of ingrained ways and communication that makes this story so compelling to me. Characters know that things need to change, and in many cases they are struggling to do so.

 

Yes, the relationship between Mat and Tylin was a bit questionable. I suspect Jordan was trying to paint a comedic picture of the Rake getting a bit of what he gives. It does seem however that when Mat truly tries to leave, she not only lets him, but actually helps him along. I always saw the issue with that relationship to be, not whether or not Mat wanted to be with her, but his discomfort with not being the one initiating things. Both Mat and Tylin, unwilling or unable to see the relationship from the perspective of the other, a profound lack of communication.

 

Thoughts?

[HoppyQ]

I always thought that Mat's grumbling about being forced and not having a say was more in the line of trying to feel sorry for himself and justify his shock. He did come from a culture where the women are not forward and relationships are a fairly private thing. From what I remember of reading his POV's regarding the whole situation was that, even though he grumbled about it, he liked being with her.

[Beckon]

That's the way I've always read it as well. Mat is dismayed at having the tables turned on him. When he says "you can't do this" he means something more like "women don't act like this". His complaints read to me like reluctance to admit to himself that he's not really displeased with the situation.

[Mistress alDebaw]

After reading all that, I have a question for your guys. To put it delicately, can a man be raped if he is able to rise to the occasion. I guess as a naive female I thought that if a man can't function nothing happens. If a man functions then he is pleased. Am I wrong here? Could Matt have risen up if he was scared or unhappy with the situation. I just don't know if a knife at his throat would have inhibited him or if he was able to force himself to function to save his life. If so, I guess that might be considered rape.

[Razor]

Mistress...It would be harder to be arroused if forced, but not impossible.

 

If you meet a person and would like to have sex with them, and they say "No!", do not take out a knife, hold it to their throats, rip off their clothes and have sex with them. If you do, you have a very good chance of going to jail. Got it.

 

 

No doubt that is true of all of us here and none are arguing that point. However that is clearly not the case if you are the Queen of Altara, or the Son of Sadam Hussein, or someone else that is the law.

[pbtjr]

got to agree with the opening post.

 

barring moraine who eventually accepts she needs to adjust to help rand they are all just a bit loopy.

 

really...why the hell is eggy and elayne in particular so hell bent on doing things with out his help...he's the bloody dragon reborn...get together all of you' date=' bow down to rand and get on with the biz of saving the flippin' world.[/b']

 

jordan could have made the lead females a bit easier to get along with and less predictable in my humble opinion.

 

 

 

thats it. shut up "bow down to Rand" and "get on with the biz of saving the flippin' world." 8)

[redbj]

got to agree with the opening post.

 

barring moraine who eventually accepts she needs to adjust to help rand they are all just a bit loopy.

 

really...why the hell is eggy and elayne in particular so hell bent on doing things with out his help...he's the bloody dragon reborn...get together all of you' date=' bow down to rand and get on with the biz of saving the flippin' world.[/b']

 

jordan could have made the lead females a bit easier to get along with and less predictable in my humble opinion.

 

 

 

thats it. shut up "bow down to Rand" and "get on with the biz of saving the flippin' world." 8)

 

im hoping the other 99% of the forum understood what i meant.but, because this is akin to a legal document how about instead of bow down....work with .......8) to you to

[Magicana]

"No"

"When a girl says no, she really means yes"

"Yes!"

"Whadda ya mean, no!"

 

Anyway.

 

Mat was willing, just not in the way that she did it. Anyway, nothing is known about the legal system over there, or how it applies to "Pretties". So you cant say that he was sexually assaulted. Anyway, as I said before, he was willing.

[torrente]

If you don't want spoilers' date=' then logically you should not be roaming this forum. The structured forum (below this one) has book-restricted topics that you might be interested in.[/quote']

 

I stroked your ego in the other thread and said that you were right cos I didn't want to explain anything to you. I'm not going to do it again, so shut your phucking mouth.

[torrente]

After reading all that' date=' I have a question for your guys. To put it delicately, can a man be raped if he is able to rise to the occasion. I guess as a naive female I thought that if a man can't function nothing happens. If a man functions then he is pleased. Am I wrong here? Could Matt have risen up if he was scared or unhappy with the situation. I just don't know if a knife at his throat would have inhibited him or if he was able to force himself to function to save his life. If so, I guess that might be considered rape.[/quote']

 

Watch the rape scene in Thursday to see how she manages to rape him.

[pbtjr]

got to agree with the opening post.

 

barring moraine who eventually accepts she needs to adjust to help rand they are all just a bit loopy.

 

really...why the hell is eggy and elayne in particular so hell bent on doing things with out his help...he's the bloody dragon reborn...get together all of you' date=' bow down to rand and get on with the biz of saving the flippin' world.[/b']

 

jordan could have made the lead females a bit easier to get along with and less predictable in my humble opinion.

 

 

 

thats it. shut up "bow down to Rand" and "get on with the biz of saving the flippin' world." 8)

 

 

im hoping the other 99% of the forum understood what i meant.but, because this is akin to a legal document how about instead of bow down....work with .......8) to you to

 

 

 

I see that I was misunderstood I really do agree with the statement thats why I commented sorry for coming across wrong but I feel the same way!!:oops: :!:

[Orange Fescue]

This discussion has gotten me to re-read the relevant portions of A Crown of Swords and I'm leaning more towards a cultural misunderstanding on the characters' parts that got out of hand and an ironic role reversal for comedic effect on RJ's part.

 

In the first chapter where Mat and Tylin interact, 16 "A Touch On The Cheek", Tylin plays the role of the octopus-armed lecher aggressively pursuing the demure maiden, played by Mat. By Andoran standards, Mat is quite the rake. By the standards of Tear, Mayene and Altara, Andor is terribly uptight and repressed. Mat has suddenly gone from being the Keith Richards of Andor to being the Donny Osmond of Ebou Dar and he doesn't know how to adapt. Mat's very parochial and takes a long time to adapt to non-Andoran ways whether it's eating strange food, interacting with nobles, or dealing with sexually aggressive women.

 

Women may be the aggressors in Altaran society, the way they are among the Aiel. An aggressive pursuit including feigned resistance and flight ("no means buy me a bigger diamond") may be part of standard Altaran dating rituals and games. If that is the case, there may be some way to stop an unwanted pursuit and stop playing the game("no really means no") but Mat, being foreign and not too swift, doesn't know the safe word and isn't going to figure it out any time soon.

 

In the chapter where Tylin draws her knife, 29 "The Festival of Birds", Tylin continues playing the aggressive lecher but, when physical violence occurs, she's not the one who starts it. Mat steps forward, grabs Tylin and reaches into her clothing looking for his key. At that point, Tylin pulls the knife, turns cold, and says "Tsk, tsk, I do try to make allowances for you being an outlander, gosling, but since you want to play roughly....Hands at your sides. Move." Again, she's playing a game and Mat is unwittingly playing along because he gives an "Andoran no" rather than an "Altaran no". How do you say "no" in Altaran? I don't know. I only speak Andoran and a smattering of Aiel.

 

So, was Mat raped? I'm not sure. When Tylin used the knife to back him towards the bed, that's what it looked like and I was horrified the first time I read it. But, afterwards, Mat didn't act like a rape victim. He was even smoking. Mostly, he seemed scandalized to be the fox instead of the hound since it "wasn't proper." Then, like Elayne, I stopped being horrified and started giggling at RJ's use of irony.

 

Oh, and Mistress, yes a man can be raped in a number of ways but I'm too tired to come up with family-friendly euphemisms since it's 11:34pm and I have to be up in 5 1/2 hours. I will say he probably wouldn't be at the top of his form the way Tylin thought Mat was.

[SinisterDeath]

these are grown adults we are talking about here

 

I have to comment about this.

Rand/Mat/Perrin are/were around 18 when they left the two rivers. 'Egwene, roughly the same. nyneave in her late twenties'.

 

They say men don't become 'adults' or 'mature' until their late twenties.

Mat/Perrin/Rand, left the 2 rivers, hardly 'adults'. They were stil, quite simply 'kids'. They may have been '18' but that doesn't make them adults. Nyneave of the bunch when they left, was probably the maturist of them all.

As time progressed, rand matured fairly fast. After learning his 'destiny' becoming enveloped in it, he 'hardened' him self to the point, he became an 'adult', yet, deep inside, he's still a 'scared lil boy'.

Mat, well, He's just as much a prankster, as he was ni the two rivers. Only this time, he has to not only bet his life on something, He has 3000 other mens lives to bet.

Perrin, like Rand, matured fairly fast. "probably thanks to faile" :P Of the males that left the two rivers, perrin was probably the maturist of them all. Due to his size and strength, he was always afraid of hurting anyone, so, some may think of him as 'dumb', he is hardly 'dumb' at all. He, is sorta the 'middle ground' between rand and mat. He isn't as emotionlist as Rand is, nor is he as quick to jump as mat is...

But, they are still 'kids' none the less...

 

 

 

As for Nyneave dropping lan off in the middle of no-where. Theres a very valid reason for this.

Lan is the hier to the Malkier throne. He, and he alone could RALLY the borderlands to face the oncoming trolloc invasions that are bound to happen during the final battle. And Nyneave probably knows this is going to happen soon. Very very soon. Lan, has refused to do this, to reclaim his lands. He is freightened of his destiny. More then Rand is of dieing. The only way Nyneave could do this, is to make him do it. Involinatirlly. IT HAS to be done. She made sure, that no matter what Lan did, even if he wasn't trying, people would Gather up and follow him. Creating the army of borderlanders, who swore to defend Malkier and never did. (Anyone reminded of that lotr and the ghosts?) The gasp moment of KoD had to deal with the Seafolks, but my god, that scene with nyneave in that town with one of the malkier... It was just.... pure, awesomeness. That scene was probably one of the greatest in the book. Not only for what happened, but for what it implies.

Its a duty Lans been avoiding his entire life, you may see what Nyneave did as 'decietful' but it had to be done.

 

On a semi-related note, more and more, I'm beginning to wonder about rand and him bening the dragon reborn. Is he really the dragon reborn? Or is it just a self-fullfilling prophecy that he's perpetuation as he is growing increasingly mad?

 

*Edit*

Nearly forgot.

Can a man be raped? Yes.

Was mat raped? No.

He just wanted to be the one flirting, handing out the gifts, get the one-night stand, then run off.

Also, how many commoners can claim a Queen hunted him, like he hunted women. :P

[Beckon]

Interesting to think of Rand not being the Dragon Reborn and self fulfilling prophesies...though I don't think that's the direction RJ is going...

 

In the Harry Potter series it's a big thing the dubiousness of prophesy. Harry is the "chosen one" basically because Lord Voldemort heard part of a prophesy and tried to eliminate his future nemesis while he was still a helpless baby. Unfortunately for Voldy his actions inadvertantly bestowed upon Harry the ability to defeat him.

 

Anyway just to be on topic, Mat is just dismayed at being the mouse instead of the cat. Like Orange said, he's playing in a game where he doesn't know the rules. He doesn't fully understand how things are done in Ebou Dar and Tylin doesn't realize how uptight Andorans are.

[SinisterDeath]

Interesting to think of Rand not being the Dragon Reborn and self fulfilling prophesies...though I don't think that's the direction RJ is going....

 

Aye, but imagine the Irony if Rand found out after the final battle. See's moirane alive again, he'd probably flip head over heels, and try not to choke her. :P

Everyone knows Bela is the real dragon reborn. 0_o

[Zardi]

I stroked your ego in the other thread and said that you were right cos I didn't want to explain anything to you. I'm not going to do it again, so shut your phucking mouth.

Ego stroking is not necessary since I already know I was right in both cases. In the other thread (if I'm thinking of the right one) you criticized RJ for supposedly not making something clear, when in fact you just hadn't finished TGH. So yes, I was right to say that you had no right to make that criticism of him, when it's really your own fault that you didn't know.

 

In this case, you sarcastically thanked someone for spoiling something for you when they probably didn't know that you haven't finished CoS. We generally assume here that everyone has finished KoD, unless they say otherwise. If you read this forum (and no one is forcing you to) then you should expect spoilers. If you don't want them, then like I said, you should check out the other forum, where there are topics restricted to certain books.

 

Really, if my one little comment angers you enough for you to pseudo-swear to get past the filter, then you're taking things far too seriously.

 

After reading all that, I have a question for your guys. To put it delicately, can a man be raped if he is able to rise to the occasion. I guess as a naive female I thought that if a man can't function nothing happens. If a man functions then he is pleased. Am I wrong here? Could Matt have risen up if he was scared or unhappy with the situation. I just don't know if a knife at his throat would have inhibited him or if he was able to force himself to function to save his life. If so, I guess that might be considered rape.

As far as I know, a male's "rising to the occasion" (as well as the analogous reaction in females) is completely a biological reaction, so just because you have the reaction doesn't mean you enjoyed it or wanted to have sex. I haven't had much luck finding a source for that, but if you want one, let me know and I'll keep looking :?

 

On a semi-related note, more and more, I'm beginning to wonder about rand and him bening the dragon reborn. Is he really the dragon reborn? Or is it just a self-fullfilling prophecy that he's perpetuation as he is growing increasingly mad?

I've wondered about that, at least for certain of the prophecies (such as taking the Stone). However, we should remember that the first prophecy is that the DR would be born on Dragonmount, and that's not something Rand could have manipulated. And, Gitara Moroso knew the exact moment of his birth. So, I think that Rand really is the Dragon Reborn, and the other prophecies just have to do with letting the world know about it.

[Guest Anonymous!]

Okay, I think I'm having a simple communication problem with most of the people on the other side of the argument. So let's try to clear it up:

 

I think rape and sexual assault is wrong. I believe it is morally wrong, no culturally wrong. I think it's wrong not because it is illegal, but because I believe a persons free will is very important and violating that is wrong. If we repealed those laws, I would still think sexual assault is wrong. (yes I know I mentioned the laws earlier, but I'm clarifying now that they are not the foundation of my argument) So your arguments that its probably not illegal for a queen or king to do it is completely lost on me. So is this argument that it is culturally acceptable for women to force men to have sex against his will. It's still wrong.

 

My argument is about the fact that Jordan never WROTE consent into the relationship during ACoS. The fact that when he finally is confronted by Elayne on the subject, he still feels helpless and uncertain how to deal with Tylin. He is still desperate to ESCAPE her. That indicates to me that he never gave consent, and is still being forced or coerced to do something he doesn't want to.

 

If one of you can show me where he consented to sex I will be more than happy to drop the sexual assault complaint. Show me where he says "Yes!" Or even thinks "Hey, even though she's holding a knife to my throat, I'm really turned on right now."

 

Sinister Death and the others, the reason it was sexual assault is because he didn't want to. No where does Jordan write those words. Mat wanted to be out searching for the bowl of winds, not sleeping with Tylin. The reason he didn't search for the bowl is because Tylin intercepted him before he could get out of the palace. I can show you where he tried to use Olver as an excuse so he wouldn't have to sleep with her. I can show you where he tried to tell her that she couldn't do this to him and she pulled a knife on him for it. I can show you wear he was appalled and embarassed to find himself in the bed room and the ONLY reason he was in there was because of the knife. I can also show you where she cut off his clothes and had sex with him without his consent. And lastly I can show you that she didn't put away the knife until she was finished with him. NO CONSENT.

 

It doesn't matter if you come from a different culture, or a different class, or a different planet, I believe that if someone doesn't want to have sex, you shouldn't force them to. So if Mat was embarassed, or was confused, or had a leg cramp, it doesn't change the fact that Mat didn't want to and never gave consent. The concept that men can be sexually assualted is still fairly new in the United States, legally and culturally. Jordan was born and raised in South Carolina before the civil rights movement and he went to the Citadel, so it wouldn't come as a great shock to me if Jordan wrote those scenes as he did because he honestly believes Tylin didn't do anything morally wrong, only culturally. Which is EXACTLY what Jordan wrote, it was wrong because of a culture clash not because she violated him, and that is why I think he is a sexist (among other reasons).

[Luckers]

A little side point, whilst cases of women raping men have rarely gotten past summary judgement in the past because of this disdain over the rising issue, recently more and more cases have been successfully brought in more recent times.

 

The Law recognizes that biological responses do not indicate consent, though it was never enforced in this cases because how could a big, strong man let himself be assaulted by a woman--additionally there is a wide-reaching social perception that men will take any sex they can get. Both these ideas are inherently flawed.

 

The change happened following a 1998 case of a gay assault which the rapist videotaped clearly showing the victim becoming aroused. Nevertheless the jury upheld that physical arousal did not imply consent. Since then this has been used to establish precedent in heterosexual cases.

 

It should also be noted that some have tried to use the same defence in female rape cases--that the female was noticeably aroused by the assault. This has never been upheld once by a courtroom as implying consent.

[Guest Anonymous!]

Luckers, I didn't know that about the 1998 case. Interesting. I do know that the physical arousal came out of some rapists claiming that they worked the victim to orgasm and so it couldn't be rape. But like you said there is no such thing as a physical implied consent.