Question/speculation for book readers who watch the show

[SinisterDeath]

37 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

Was that even a real person/actor? I guess my point is that casting wise we haven’t seen that any Aiel men are cast. I think in S2, Aiel wise, Avi Bain and Chiad will be the only Aiel we see. Hope I’m wrong…

Or they're keeping a tight lid on a lot of casting because it's wrapped up in the season finale with a flood of Aiel showing up...

[DreadLord31]

7 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Or they're keeping a tight lid on a lot of casting because it's wrapped up in the season finale with a flood of Aiel showing up...

Hopefully! But those probably wouldn’t be named actor roles, just extras… 

But that one article did say that there’s a “Gladiator-esque” type battle in this season. Which I’m assuming is Falme season finale. 

[DreadLord31]

58 minutes ago, Vartija said:

https://wot-tidbits.tumblr.com/post/101100543492/wot-casting-by-robert-jordan

 

I really hope the casting people find this and actually cast Halle Berry as Tuon & Tyra Banks as Semirhage; that would be legit! The rest - are kind of impossible because even at the time, you can't cast a younger version of a person without a lot of CGI enhancement - lot of cost - and just not practical. 

[SinisterDeath]

5 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

Hopefully! But those probably wouldn’t be named actor roles, just extras… 

Not necessarily. Depends on how the scene plays out, and how tied to the ending it is... 
Could have Gaul and Rhuarc introduce themselves to Rand, as a flood of Aiel climb over the Stone as the show fades to black. 😉 

[Scarloc99]

On 8/12/2023 at 10:37 PM, DojoToad said:

Jordan took too long with Bowl of the Winds.  Hopefully the show improves on that arc...

I mean did he, it feels like it but that is largely the disjointed style of writing, jumping from storyline to storyline with long gaps between, and the fact that in those books where they are hunting the bowl RJ was at his most repetitive, insisting on telling the reader again things he had already detailed out the last time he returned there.

in reality the hunt for the bowls is rather straightforward but involves some really key story moments. 

The girls realise there is an item they need to find in ebou dar they then decide they need to go and trick/convince Mat to go with them. 
Ebou Dar is described, Mat ends up in the palace and that whole storyline happens (wonder if they will show a women raping a man in the TV show, although it worked in Bridgerton), the girls have a bit of a scout around and find out a little about wilders being in the city. You also get real interaction between Aes Sedai of both factions. And Elayne and Nynaeve have a real moment. Nynaeve also loses her block. 

They finally utilise Mat, the whole apology thing and the start of an understanding between them and Mat that feeds into later on, the forging of the dragons, and Elayne trusting him to run the last battle. 
The introduction of the Gholam. 
Finally folding the Kin into the group, picking up the Sea Folk and leaving Ebou Dar, Mat being stuck behind leading to that storyline. 
Fixing the weather which then directly leads to Rand losing control of Callandor and starting him on his dark phoenix/black suit superman/blacksuit Spiderman path. 

In reality the whole story is told over the course of not many chapters, but, because it is spread out over 3 books and keeps getting interrupted by other storylines it doesn't flow anywhere near as well. The Perrin Faile Kidnap arc has the same issues, it is punchy and makes sense if you take all the other paragraphs of other story away. 

I can see the bowl being included and Tanchio being removed or at least seriously condensed as to me that whole section really adds nothing to the series that can't be introduced in other ways, you don't need to be in a tanchio circus to have Bridgette saved for instance. 
 

[SinisterDeath]

1 minute ago, DreadLord31 said:

 

I really hope the casting people find this and actually cast Halle Berry as Tuon & Tyra Banks as Semirhage; that would be legit! The rest - are kind of impossible because even at the time, you can't cast a younger version of a person without a lot of CGI enhancement - lot of cost - and just not practical. 

Honestly, I believe his list was just a bunch of actors he liked and women he thought were hot. 😄

 

I doubt they'd cast Halle for Tuon. She's WAY too old now.  Part of me questions if she's even that good of an actor... but she did win an Oscar for Monster's Ball.. (Was that really for her acting, or just a good script? Maybe it's the catwoman bias. I dunno...)

 

 

[Scarloc99]

On 8/13/2023 at 2:49 AM, Guire said:

I think this is all central to why I currently don't like the corrective adaptation trend.  I think it is better to use original IP that incorporates an author's desired worldview.  It can be baked into the story and feel more organic and fine tuned.  Taking an IP with beloved characters and shoe horning in the desired message gets ham fisted really quickly.  Outside of the story concerns just adds layer on layer of complexity.  

 

A written to visual medium adaptation is tough.  Add on making story more gender equal, more  prefered diverse, having limitations on location because Amazon wants tax breaks and to build a giant studio, a marketing campaign that courts book fans while taunting fans that want a different story, having writers that only like parts of a massive complex story, unexpected global pandemic, Amazon having tightly specific parameters for marketing and story telling.  Looking at other current big entertainment projects, I think Rafe and co look like champions.  But if HBO had made WoT with intent on telling Jordan's story ( warts and all) this would be the big fantasy out now without any asterics or disputes.

Except that that world view changes as society changes. 

The fact is that if Robert Jordan where writing the WOT now there would be changes, some significant, to how he wrote his characters, some of this would be from him, others would be editorial in nature with a publisher requesting changes be made. There would be a lot less heaving bossoms, a lot less referencing to pretty women and ugly women in the objective way Mat does. I would argue the lore point of souls being gender specific would change given how society has moved and how RJ was already ahead of the curve in "some" of the ways he wrote women, and I think you would have far more overt same sex relationships, something RJ was happy putting in his writing, but was also aware that in the 90's it was still a taboo in mainstream print media and especially in fantasy. 

Rafe making changes to bring the book series up to those modern viewpoints is doing only what RJ himself would no doubt have done, and there is precedence for this. The recent Sandman Adaptation the original author made changes to make it fit the modern world in ways he couldn't the original work. Now RJ is not with us but going from what we know about his world view and how he tried to push female empowerment in Fantasy in the WOT, as clumsily as he pulled that off, I think it is a fair assumption to think that he would have made changes to the TV show to make it fit this generation of fantasy viewers. 

[Scarloc99]

On 8/13/2023 at 1:55 PM, SinisterDeath said:

We only got a snippit of the Tinkers culture in the show, and I don't recall if they went all in on the "gypsy/roma" side of it; E.g. where the Tinkers would be run out of towns for "stealing" anything not nailed down, including their youth... (There's been a lot of push back about showing that specific group of real-world people like that these days, and it can be a touchy subject.)

 

But largely even in the books the "They are peaceful, except for the violent men" is largely book accurate. (see rhuidean chapters)

 

Books vs Show, Books women (except Aiel) were less likely to use a blade to kill. They were more likely to use words, and Guile. Men were more likely to use Swords & sling Balefire.

 

In the show, we're seeing women have more action sequences than what we saw in the books, but that's also because in the books we have sequences were a lot of the action was "off screen" and the combat was "inferred" to have happened.

Like I said, I get it. I understand the worry that they'll push all the negative onto the male characters. All we can do is WAFO. Right now, a lot of this *waves hands around* is just speculating, and then getting worked up over that speculation.

At the last battle even the Tinkers are starting to shift that world view, accepting that while they themselves will never pick up a weapon, it is only thanks to the sacrifice made by those that do that they are able to exist and live there own way of life. This is a significant shift in the tinker philophosy that violence might be acceptable in the right circumstance by those who do not follow the way. 

[DojoToad]

54 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I mean did he,

 

Yes - see below...

 

54 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

 

it feels like it

 

Then it is

 

54 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

but that is largely the disjointed style of writing, jumping from storyline to storyline with long gaps between, and the fact that in those books where they are hunting the bowl RJ was at his most repetitive, insisting on telling the reader again things he had already detailed out the last time he returned there.

 

You explained perfectly why it was too long.  Thank you.

[Scarloc99]

19 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Yes - see below...

 

Then it is

 

You explained perfectly why it was too long.  Thank you.

My argument however is that if you remove the repetition and put those chapters in linear order the story of the bowl of the winds is clear, concise and moves pretty quickly through the arc. 

I think conflating a writing style and saying it makes a part of the story pointless or unnecessary to the whole is a mistake, all the events in the search for the bowl of the winds have impacts later on beyond actually finding the bowl, the bowl acts as the Mcguffin for that part of the wider story, but the story told around it is more important then the actual bowl of the winds. but without the bowl none of that bit of the story would happen. No reason to go to Ebou Dar, no meeting the kin etc. 

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, Sir_Charrid said:

My argument however is that if you remove the repetition and put those chapters in linear order the story of the bowl of the winds is clear, concise and moves pretty quickly through the arc. 

I think conflating a writing style and saying it makes a part of the story pointless or unnecessary to the whole is a mistake, all the events in the search for the bowl of the winds have impacts later on beyond actually finding the bowl, the bowl acts as the Mcguffin for that part of the wider story, but the story told around it is more important then the actual bowl of the winds. but without the bowl none of that bit of the story would happen. No reason to go to Ebou Dar, no meeting the kin etc. 

I never said the bowl of the winds was pointless or unnecessary.  I said the arc was too long - which you presented evidence in support of...

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

I never said the bowl of the winds was pointless or unnecessary.  I said the arc was too long - which you presented evidence in support of...

I think what's trying to be conveyed here is that the story itself is actually short, it just takes place over several chapters, which makes it feel more drawn out then it actually is.

 

Both can be true at the same time. It can be a short story that feels like it is drawn out.

[DojoToad]

6 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

I think what's trying to be conveyed here is that the story itself is actually short, it just takes place over several chapters, which makes it feel more drawn out then it actually is.

 

Both can be true at the same time. It can be a short story that feels like it is drawn out.

Drawn out over several books.  But think I get your point and @Sir_Charrid's

[SinisterDeath]

2 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Drawn out over several books.  But think I get your point and @Sir_Charrid's

Just be glad it's not like the Great Gatsby, where the entire book is drawn out, until you get to the ending where the last chapters are actually good.. Mainly because the ENDING is finally in sight!

[Scarloc99]

23 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Drawn out over several books.  But think I get your point and @Sir_Charrid's

I mean it is a side effect of this kind of storytelling. Lord of the rings in some ways is easier to read because you are not constantly jumping from one POV to another. You stick for a period of time with one story thread, and then switch to another. I feel RJ could have done more if this, for one thing he gets himself into a bind with the whole issue of having Rand meet his dad long before the other story elements have caught up to that point. He could have directed the story at Ebou Dar and told that in one solid chunk of writing, then shifted to the Rand POV at the same time. This might have meant that each book focused on one or 2 main characters, but that lack of feeling like you have to catch the reader up every time you return to a story would mean for saved pages, as would the reader not having to context switch from story to story. 

[SinisterDeath]

42 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I mean it is a side effect of this kind of storytelling. Lord of the rings in some ways is easier to read because you are not constantly jumping from one POV to another. You stick for a period of time with one story thread, and then switch to another. I feel RJ could have done more if this, for one thing he gets himself into a bind with the whole issue of having Rand meet his dad long before the other story elements have caught up to that point. He could have directed the story at Ebou Dar and told that in one solid chunk of writing, then shifted to the Rand POV at the same time. This might have meant that each book focused on one or 2 main characters, but that lack of feeling like you have to catch the reader up every time you return to a story would mean for saved pages, as would the reader not having to context switch from story to story. 

Oh light, that reminds me of.. Crossroads of Twilight? 
Every single chapter talking about that event from their perspective was just.. oof. 
Waiting 3 years for that book was just. ouch.

[Scarloc99]

12 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Oh light, that reminds me of.. Crossroads of Twilight? 
Every single chapter talking about that event from their perspective was just.. oof. 
Waiting 3 years for that book was just. ouch.

Oh yes I know what you mean, I mean, I get it needed to be shown how everyone saw it but really we get it already. Also by anchoring everything that hard to the timeline it led to the longer term issue of that thing happening with Rand and his dad taking place I think 2 books before rands dad actually left Perrin. 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

20 hours ago, Guire said:

We have seen the dead Aielman in mining town

I was wondering if that was the closest we’re going to get to the Gaul character 

[Guire]

2 minutes ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

I was wondering if that was the closest we’re going to get to the Gaul character 

Ouch.  Hope not.  But might be.  Again story compression due to time alloted is going to make some really deep cuts. 

[Guire]

14 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I mean it is a side effect of this kind of storytelling. Lord of the rings in some ways is easier to read because you are not constantly jumping from one POV to another. You stick for a period of time with one story thread, and then switch to another. I feel RJ could have done more if this, for one thing he gets himself into a bind with the whole issue of having Rand meet his dad long before the other story elements have caught up to that point. He could have directed the story at Ebou Dar and told that in one solid chunk of writing, then shifted to the Rand POV at the same time. This might have meant that each book focused on one or 2 main characters, but that lack of feeling like you have to catch the reader up every time you return to a story would mean for saved pages, as would the reader not having to context switch from story to story. 

In some of my rereads I would read single characters arc through multiple books as standalones.  It made Perrin's arc in particular much more satisfying.

[Guire]

19 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Except that that world view changes as society changes. 

The fact is that if Robert Jordan where writing the WOT now there would be changes, some significant, to how he wrote his characters, some of this would be from him, others would be editorial in nature with a publisher requesting changes be made. There would be a lot less heaving bossoms, a lot less referencing to pretty women and ugly women in the objective way Mat does. I would argue the lore point of souls being gender specific would change given how society has moved and how RJ was already ahead of the curve in "some" of the ways he wrote women, and I think you would have far more overt same sex relationships, something RJ was happy putting in his writing, but was also aware that in the 90's it was still a taboo in mainstream print media and especially in fantasy. 

Rafe making changes to bring the book series up to those modern viewpoints is doing only what RJ himself would no doubt have done, and there is precedence for this. The recent Sandman Adaptation the original author made changes to make it fit the modern world in ways he couldn't the original work. Now RJ is not with us but going from what we know about his world view and how he tried to push female empowerment in Fantasy in the WOT, as clumsily as he pulled that off, I think it is a fair assumption to think that he would have made changes to the TV show to make it fit this generation of fantasy viewers. 

I want to answer this in depth. It is going to be a bit of a long post.  I will make longer reply later. I have just made a major change in my life and hopefully it will be  conducive to more articulate posts.  In short I don't think changes made such as more overt queer representation or female action sequences are my main issue.  Amazon WoT has a massive story compression. With that in mind who and what gets screen time is a big deal. Rafe's relation to WoT and the writers he has chosen to tell the story is representative of a signifigant but small portion of book fans and potential audience for a fantasy show.  I think cleaning up some of the warts in book series but staying closer to the book story would have made a more entertaining and commercially viable TV show. 

Edited August 15, 2023 by Guire
Added sentence for clarity

[Scarloc99]

38 minutes ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

I was wondering if that was the closest we’re going to get to the Gaul character 

Rafe said in season 1 that this was not Gaul on being asked, 

[nsmallw]

It seems that in condensing the books to tv, you can remove wholesale  Crossroads of Twilight from the equation. If they did choose to do that are there any threads in that book that Rafe could utilize ?

Aside from the Perrin story where he finally gives up the axe and creates his power wrought hammer would be awesome to see, what other parts of COT would be cool on TV ?

[SinisterDeath]

15 minutes ago, nsmallw said:

It seems that in condensing the books to tv, you can remove wholesale  Crossroads of Twilight from the equation. If they did choose to do that are there any threads in that book that Rafe could utilize ?

Aside from the Perrin story where he finally gives up the axe and creates his power wrought hammer would be awesome to see, what other parts of COT would be cool on TV ?

Visually, a lot of CoT can be boiled down to people from across the world experiencing the same event at the same time.

 

Consider that CoT was published in 2003, and was actively being written between 2000 and 2003.

In context, it's no coincidence that RJ wrote about a "major event" from the perspective of people from around the world experiencing the same event at the same time, when 9/11 was literally fresh on his mind.

 

CoT was also the first 3 year gap in his publishing history at that point, so it wouldn't surprise me if he scrapped a lot of early drafts in place of what we got.

[Scarloc99]

4 hours ago, nsmallw said:

It seems that in condensing the books to tv, you can remove wholesale  Crossroads of Twilight from the equation. If they did choose to do that are there any threads in that book that Rafe could utilize ?

Aside from the Perrin story where he finally gives up the axe and creates his power wrought hammer would be awesome to see, what other parts of COT would be cool on TV ?

Perrin has already long given up the axe by this point, he gives up one hammer to make a new one.