Question/speculation for book readers who watch the show

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

We got to experience so many complex and interesting plots in the books thanks to the lack of limits such as time and budget. Obviously the show has to operate with limits in every aspect. With that in mind, what significant book plots do you think might have to be abandoned in the show? I think some of the lengthy focus on the Elayne succession or the faile/Perrin abduction and rescue saga will either need to be condensed or eliminated. Just to name two. Any other thoughts or examples?

[DojoToad]

Luca’s circus

[WheelofJuke]

My hot take is that Rafe *expands* Faile's rescue slog, just to show WoT fans who's *really* the boss.  😐

[expat]

Sea Folks plot seems an obvious place to cut.  They didn't accomplish anything and they seem to be a pale imitation of the Aiel (channelers not under the White Tower control, outsiders who support Rand under a different rubric than the Dragon etc.).

 

 

[Samt]

The book series has nearly 3000 named characters.  While many of them are very small (some not ever appearing on page), there are still hundreds of relatively important characters.  

 

When thinking about what gets cut, I think a big consideration is which characters are getting cut.  When talking about the Faile/Perrin arc, for instance, we have:

Berelain

Sevanna

Alliandre

Cha Faile members

Gaul

various Emond's Fielders

Galina

Tylee

Rolan

Therava

 

Are you going to cast all of these characters and make an arc out of it? That's a big commitment.  

 

[WheelofJuke]

3 hours ago, Samt said:

The book series has nearly 3000 named characters.  While many of them are very small (some not ever appearing on page), there are still hundreds of relatively important characters.  

 

When thinking about what gets cut, I think a big consideration is which characters are getting cut.  When talking about the Faile/Perrin arc, for instance, we have:

Berelain

Sevanna

Alliandre

Cha Faile members

Gaul

various Emond's Fielders

Galina

Tylee

Rolan

Therava

 

Are you going to cast all of these characters and make an arc out of it? That's a big commitment.  

 

It'll be the story arc for seasons 5-9. :p

[Guire]

So with 8 seasons max.  More likely 5.  I think a better aproach is what will be kept.  I am guessing a fraction of total story and a fraction of characters.  Also Rafe is correcting toxic masculinity so Moraine, Egwene, Nyn, and possibly Elaine and Avhienda get some expansion of certain arcs while cutting others completely.  I think we get a lot less of territorial expansion. More Aes Sedai intetnal plotting. Great captains and borderlanders either gone or alluded to off screen.  Sea folk gone. Perrin may get decent arc in season 3 but post Battle for Two Rivers I think he becomes support team for struggling Rand.  Him and Avhienda may be faction of Avhiendas posse if Faile and Gaul never show up.  Elaine will be part of Egwenes faction teaching her to rule instead of Rand.  Possibly Egs love interest if Rand cycles through 3 lovers instead of being full polyamory.  Black Tower greatly reduced.  

[psmith1990]

3 hours ago, Guire said:

So with 8 seasons max.  More likely 5.  I think a better aproach is what will be kept.  I am guessing a fraction of total story and a fraction of characters.  Also Rafe is correcting toxic masculinity so Moraine, Egwene, Nyn, and possibly Elaine and Avhienda get some expansion of certain arcs while cutting others completely.  I think we get a lot less of territorial expansion. More Aes Sedai intetnal plotting. Great captains and borderlanders either gone or alluded to off screen.  Sea folk gone. Perrin may get decent arc in season 3 but post Battle for Two Rivers I think he becomes support team for struggling Rand.  Him and Avhienda may be faction of Avhiendas posse if Faile and Gaul never show up.  Elaine will be part of Egwenes faction teaching her to rule instead of Rand.  Possibly Egs love interest if Rand cycles through 3 lovers instead of being full polyamory.  Black Tower greatly reduced.  

 

Not sure if it spoils anything per se (?) but seeing as people have presumed this a couple of times now, as per Rafe's own social media

Spoiler

the Sea Folk are in unless Amazon demand some cuts or he changes his mind, lol. https://www.instagram.com/p/CnC657jJUGc/ He replied to someone on this post 24 weeks ago saying, "makes it easier honestly. I love writing in places like this. Especially when I’m doing some scribbling about the Sea Folk 🤓"

 

[Guire]

6 hours ago, psmith1990 said:

 

Not sure if it spoils anything per se (?) but seeing as people have presumed this a couple of times now, as per Rafe's own social media

  Hide contents

the Sea Folk are in unless Amazon demand some cuts or he changes his mind, lol. https://www.instagram.com/p/CnC657jJUGc/ He replied to someone on this post 24 weeks ago saying, "makes it easier honestly. I love writing in places like this. Especially when I’m doing some scribbling about the Sea Folk 🤓"

 

Makes sense since Domon Bayle cast but not sure how main characters are going to get enough story time to do them justice if significant book elements aren't cut. I would rather have depth than breadth at this point.

[expat]

I'm just wondering what the Sea Folks bring to the series.  What did they do which is critical to the success of the Dragon which is worth introducing another group and spending enough time with their backstory for them to come across as not just another generic cardboard character grouping?  What emotional or character themes are they supposed to be fulfilling that are not already being done better by the Aiel?

Spoiler

I'm not even sure that the weather issues requiring the Bowl of the Winds will be in the series.  In EOTW, RJ foreshadowed extreme weather conditions (long hard winter bring the wolves down from the mountains) in the first few pages.  In the series, I don't remember unusual weather coming up at all.

   

[Samt]

33 minutes ago, expat said:

I'm just wondering what the Sea Folks bring to the series.  What did they do which is critical to the success of the Dragon which is worth introducing another group and spending enough time with their backstory for them to come across as not just another generic cardboard character grouping?  What emotional or character themes are they supposed to be fulfilling that are not already being done better by the Aiel?

  Hide contents

I'm not even sure that the weather issues requiring the Bowl of the Winds will be in the series.  In EOTW, RJ foreshadowed extreme weather conditions (long hard winter bring the wolves down from the mountains) in the first few pages.  In the series, I don't remember unusual weather coming up at all.

   

As far as weather, it comes up a fair bit in the series.  The long winter is the one that is coming to an end as the series begins, I believe.  And it's just a single aspect of the more general theme of the dark one being able to affect natural processes to make the world a hellscape.  

 

As far as the sea folk, you are correct that they are a self contained arc that ultimately has very little payoff, very little impact on the plot, not much emotional effect, doesn't really introduce any particularly memorable characters, doesn't seem to really develop the other main characters, and is just generally very easy to cut wholesale without changing much else.  

 

However, if you think that is a good reason to cut the sea folk, you haven't been paying attention.  The sea folk are a matriarchal society and they're black.  They are in.  

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

11 hours ago, Samt said:

The sea folk are a matriarchal society

The sea folk are a society with clearly defined gender roles - a woman cannot hold the cargomaster/swordmaster/master of blades role.  While decisions such as where and how to sail belong to the sail mistress the decisions of equal importance on how to trade and how to fight belong to the cargomaster.   They are matriarchal only to the extent that the position of the ships cargo master matches the consequence of the ships sailmistress (so if they are also e.g. the clan wavemistress he is clan swordmaster)  but the same holds true for the position of the ships windfinder.  Also man or woman (and regardless of the position of the parents) every sea folk starts at the bottom as a deckhand.   What we know of their wider customs and marriage vows is of a society which has gender equality (but recognised difference).   

Far Madding is an example of an explicitly matriarchal (and misogynist) society.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

Then we have the knitting circle…and like @DojoToadmentioned, Luca’s menagerie. They had a lot of attention in the books but hard to imagine being incorporated into the show 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

I wonder too if some of the above mentioned plots become melded rather than cut

[Samt]

11 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

The sea folk are a society with clearly defined gender roles - a woman cannot hold the cargomaster/swordmaster/master of blades role.  While decisions such as where and how to sail belong to the sail mistress the decisions of equal importance on how to trade and how to fight belong to the cargomaster.   They are matriarchal only to the extent that the position of the ships cargo master matches the consequence of the ships sailmistress (so if they are also e.g. the clan wavemistress he is clan swordmaster)  but the same holds true for the position of the ships windfinder.  Also man or woman (and regardless of the position of the parents) every sea folk starts at the bottom as a deckhand.   What we know of their wider customs and marriage vows is of a society which has gender equality (but recognised difference).   

Far Madding is an example of an explicitly matriarchal (and misogynist) society.

I figured that this objection might be raised when I said it was matriarchal.  It's true that men are not completely ignored and never have any power.  It's also true that not all women are powerful.  Neither of those mean that the society is not matriarchal.  It's clear from several POVs and from the way that people interact with the society that the head of the sea folk is the Mistress of the Ships. The mistress of the ships is selected by the first twelve  All of these positions are all always held by women.  Similarly, every clan is ruled by a wavemistress (who is also always a woman).  

 

A reverse example is the Aiel.  While the wise ones hold significant power and influence, the heads of the clans are all male.  I would say this makes the Aiel patriarchal.  I would also add that the terms matriarchal and patriarchal essentially never imply that all members of that gender are above all members of the other gender (or that there aren't members of that gender who are powerless).  These terms simply address who in the society is allowed to hold the leadership positions.  

 

Also, more to the point, I don't think this matters for the show.  If we do get the sea folk, we are unlikely to get an intricate and detailed explanation of their hierarchy and succession.  Women are at the top and that is what we will see.  

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

I’m wondering which of the book characters will be melded or consolidated into one show character, so viewers don’t necessarily lose the baby with the bath water when a character from the book doesn’t make the cut but some of the content survives by assigning it to someone else. Same concept applies to certain storylines. Really curious to see how the significant factors relating to cut book content will be condensed and reassigned. 

[Scarloc99]

On 6/26/2023 at 6:57 AM, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

We got to experience so many complex and interesting plots in the books thanks to the lack of limits such as time and budget. Obviously the show has to operate with limits in every aspect. With that in mind, what significant book plots do you think might have to be abandoned in the show? I think some of the lengthy focus on the Elayne succession or the faile/Perrin abduction and rescue saga will either need to be condensed or eliminated. Just to name two. Any other thoughts or examples?

Faile Perrin abduction is actually not that long, it feels it in the books, mainly because there is such a big gap between scenes, and there is a lot of repetition, RJ did like his long reminders of what has happened so far as if he was worried someone would jump in on book 9 and wonder what was going on. It is also very very key to Perrin's development. He risks everything to save her, which then makes his decision at the last battle even more heart wrenching. 

As for things that can be cut. 

Hinderstep, I don't want it to be, it is a great little bit that gets a lovely call back in the last battle but might be wasted TV time. 
The girls leaving Tar Valon with Liandrin, only to come back and then be sent away by Siuan, I see that leaving of Tar Valon happening only once. 
Avihenda going to Rhuidean and the second vision, it has no bearing on the last battle at all, she can call out for the aiel to be made part of the dragon peace without needing to have that all happen.
Fighting Ishy twice in a similar way, I can see Rand sheathing the sword but then killing Ishy outright there and then. 
The hunt for the Domination Bands. 
The rescue of Morraine, I can see that whole scene and moraines arc being changed in some way because ultimately that scene doesn't really drive anything character development wise in terms of Mat. It gets Mat away from Andor so he cant defend the city, and it gets Moraine back to settle everyone down at the dragons peace meeting. All that TV time just for those to things. 
Most of the Cairhien political stuff, the factions etc, there will need to just be enough to allow Rand to be kidnapped from there. 
Most of Elaynes political manoeuvring to get the throne. 
 

[Scarloc99]

On 6/26/2023 at 6:30 PM, Samt said:

The book series has nearly 3000 named characters.  While many of them are very small (some not ever appearing on page), there are still hundreds of relatively important characters.  

 

When thinking about what gets cut, I think a big consideration is which characters are getting cut.  When talking about the Faile/Perrin arc, for instance, we have:

Berelain

Sevanna

Alliandre

Cha Faile members

Gaul

various Emond's Fielders

Galina

Tylee

Rolan

Therava

 

Are you going to cast all of these characters and make an arc out of it? That's a big commitment.  

 

Gaul is such a key part of Perrins story. As he says at the last battle, he followed Perrin because he saved his life, he stayed because he became his friend. He is key to the last battle because he stays, in the world of dreams, holding the pass and protecting Rand that can't be some other random Aiel, it cant be Avihenda because she is defending Rand in the real world at that fight. It can't be Perrin because he goes chasing Luc. He is to the dream world what Thom is in the real world, the last line if all others fail. 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

On 8/8/2023 at 4:48 AM, Sir_Charrid said:

Gaul is such a key part of Perrins story. As he says at the last battle, he followed Perrin because he saved his life, he stayed because he became his friend. He is key to the last battle because he stays, in the world of dreams, holding the pass and protecting Rand that can't be some other random Aiel, it cant be Avihenda because she is defending Rand in the real world at that fight. It can't be Perrin because he goes chasing Luc. He is to the dream world what Thom is in the real world, the last line if all others fail. 

I agree and I also feel like Gaul is important early on as an introduction to the aiel and their values and culture. Also as you said it is significant for Perrin as well, deciding to free him despite the risk to himself. I don’t know if there will be time for the show to give his character and arc enough or any screen time, but I hope he will be included as well as Bain and chiad. 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

Another key element in the books that will by necessity likely have to be left out is the forsaken returning with different appearances and names. Also the age factor of stilled AS. But who knows, maybe the show will go for it?

[DreadLord31]

On 6/27/2023 at 1:22 AM, Guire said:

Also Rafe is correcting toxic masculinity so Moraine, Egwene, Nyn, and possibly Elaine and Avhienda get some expansion of certain arcs while cutting others completely. 

Where is the dislike button? If anything WoT shows “toxic femininity”. Have you read the books? RJ’s brilliance is showing that all people are faulty & those in power consistently exhibit it in certain ways (like being arrogant, condescending, manipulative, exclusive, abusive, ect…)

 

Case(s) in point: Nynaeve’s constant condescension of the boys. Elaida & the Aes Sedai treatment of Rand, Tylin and Matt, ect… 

Edited August 12, 2023 by DreadLord31

[DreadLord31]

I think they’re gonna cut almost the entire Caemlyn succession plot. They’ll have to condense the Black Ajah hunting in a massive way. They’ll condense everything with Couladin (he should die much sooner). Forsaken will be condensed to 8 & Ishy & Lanfear’s roles expanded.

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Another key element in the books that will by necessity likely have to be left out is the forsaken returning with different appearances and names. Also the age factor of stilled AS. But who knows, maybe the show will go for it?

I think we will very much see the forsaken coming back in different bodies, because it forshadows Rands spirit swapping with Moridin at the end. 
 

Really it isn’t that hard to do, a forsaken does and later on they return with a different actor. Also Halima (make channeler in a female body) plays an important role. 

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, DreadLord31 said:

I think they’re gonna cut almost the entire Caemlyn succession plot. They’ll have to condense the Black Ajah hunting in a massive way. They’ll condense everything with Couladin (he should die much sooner). Forsaken will be condensed to 8 & Ishy & Lanfear’s roles expanded.

Not sure on the forsaken, it makes sense and is not as much of an issue but I am unsure as to which storylines you cut? 

[DreadLord31]

They’ll cut Bel’al, Aginor, Rahvin, Balthamel, Messana; they are easily combined with others. Mesanna’s role given to Graendal & all the men’s parts given to Isha’mael.