Any pet theories you wished would have been true?

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

I’ll start. I was disappointed that olver wasn’t gaidal cane 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

I am so curious about how the series was always progressing towards Rand destiny and ultimate potential to not only defeat but annihilate the dark one. If he succeeded, then does that “break the wheel”? If there is no dark one because Rand destroyed it, then the wheel and the ages and the whole cycle is either shattered or reborn?

Edited February 14, 2023 by Lightfriendsocialmistress
This was supposed to be a new topic but I somehow managed to

[wotfan4472]

No, it does not break the wheel. If Rand had done that, then Fain would have killed Rand, and become the Dark One replacement, and that would mean that Mat takes over the role that Rand had.

 

You notice that Mat kills Fain immediately after Rand chose to keep the Dark One alive. Meaning, the Pattern would not allow Mat to do that if the other choice had been made. It would have most likely used the darkhounds to attack Mat and use Perrin to save him, so Fain gets to Rand in the confusion.

[DojoToad]

4 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

I’ll start. I was disappointed that olver wasn’t gaidal cane 

This.

 

Always wondered if that was the original intention, but then RJ changed his mind for whatever reason.  Maybe he realized the breadcrumbs were laid on too thick.  He didn't want it too obvious, so denied the connection.

 

Olver will always be Gaidal Cain for me.

Edited February 14, 2023 by DojoToad

[Samt]

3 hours ago, DojoToad said:

This.

 

Always wondered if that was the original intention, but then RJ changed his mind for whatever reason.  Maybe he realized the breadcrumbs were laid on too thick.  He didn't want it too obvious, so denied the connection.

 

Olver will always be Gaidal Cain for me.

This was something I considered as well, but the timelines don't really line up.  Olver had to be born 5+ years before TWotW in order to be the right age when we meet him.  Gaidal Cain is seen in Tel conversing with Birgitte prior to his rebirth during the series.  This means that in order for Olver to be Gaidal Cain something really weird would have to be going on.  

 

We know that time passes differently in Tel, but I had always assumed (and I think correctly) that this just means that time can go faster or slower. Tel and the real world are still parallel and time is always moving forward in both.  Gaidal Cain can't be in the real world as Olver at the same time he is in Tel.  

Alternately, maybe a different soul was Olver until Gaidal Cain came and took over the body.  Or maybe children have no souls until they are 9 years old.  Both of those have really weird implications, though.  

Or maybe Gaidal Cain is allowed to be "born" as a 9 year old boy and Olver's backstory is made up.  But this is also something that is never really hinted at and doesn't really fit with his character otherwise (maybe in this scenario, Olver actually believes his own fake backstory).  

So I don't think that Olver is Gaidal Cain. And considering that Gaidal Cain is in Tel before we meet Olver, RJ surely would have seen this contradiction when he introduced Olver.  If he wanted Olver to be GC, he would need to have Birgitte just say that GC had been reborn before she meets any of the main characters in Tel.  

I suspect that GC is some random baby during the main series.  Birgitte will be reborn some time after the last battle and meet GC as it always happens in their story.  

 

7 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

I am so curious about how the series was always progressing towards Rand destiny and ultimate potential to not only defeat but annihilate the dark one. If he succeeded, then does that “break the wheel”? If there is no dark one because Rand destroyed it, then the wheel and the ages and the whole cycle is either shattered or reborn?

Rand's potential to destroy the DO was fully paid off, in my opinion.  At the last battle when Rand and the DO are showing each other alternate realities, one of them is a reality in which the Dark One doesn't exist.  But Rand sees that in this reality people have essentially lost their spark.  Not being able to choose evil makes it impossible to choose good.  It's just forced upon you.  The Dark One is quite literally a necessary evil.  

BS has said that RJ never got a chance to give him the full explanation on Padan Fain, so it's not clear if he was intended as a back up dark one (BUDO).  But I do like the theory that Padan Fain was the BUDO.  Exactly how it would have played out if Rand destroyed the Dark One is speculative, but I don't think Rand can actually win if he does that.  

An alternate, much darker, theory that I have is that if Rand had destroyed the Dark One, then Rand would become the Dark One.  Forcing people to choose good is only nominally better than forcing them to choose evil.  Again, the details of how this theory would play out are murky, but I think it is interesting.  

[SinisterDeath]

6 minutes ago, Samt said:

Rand's potential to destroy the DO was fully paid off, in my opinion.  At the last battle when Rand and the DO are showing each other alternate realities, one of them is a reality in which the Dark One doesn't exist.  But Rand sees that in this reality people have essentially lost their spark.  Not being able to choose evil makes it impossible to choose good.  It's just forced upon you.  The Dark One is quite literally a necessary evil.  

BS has said that RJ never got a chance to give him the full explanation on Padan Fain, so it's not clear if he was intended as a back up dark one (BUDO).  But I do like the theory that Padan Fain was the BUDO.  Exactly how it would have played out if Rand destroyed the Dark One is speculative, but I don't think Rand can actually win if he does that.  

An alternate, much darker, theory that I have is that if Rand had destroyed the Dark One, then Rand would become the Dark One.  Forcing people to choose good is only nominally better than forcing them to choose evil.  Again, the details of how this theory would play out are murky, but I think it is interesting.  

The Last Battle was effectively a battle of Free Will vs Determinism. The outcome is a mix of both, rather than choosing one absolute for another.

RJ being a freemason, probably played a role in the Last Battle.

[DojoToad]

31 minutes ago, Samt said:

This was something I considered as well, but the timelines don't really line up.  Olver had to be born 5+ years before TWotW in order to be the right age when we meet him.  Gaidal Cain is seen in Tel conversing with Birgitte prior to his rebirth during the series.  This means that in order for Olver to be Gaidal Cain something really weird would have to be going on.  

 

We know that time passes differently in Tel, but I had always assumed (and I think correctly) that this just means that time can go faster or slower. Tel and the real world are still parallel and time is always moving forward in both.  Gaidal Cain can't be in the real world as Olver at the same time he is in Tel.  

Alternately, maybe a different soul was Olver until Gaidal Cain came and took over the body.  Or maybe children have no souls until they are 9 years old.  Both of those have really weird implications, though.  

Or maybe Gaidal Cain is allowed to be "born" as a 9 year old boy and Olver's backstory is made up.  But this is also something that is never really hinted at and doesn't really fit with his character otherwise (maybe in this scenario, Olver actually believes his own fake backstory).  

So I don't think that Olver is Gaidal Cain. And considering that Gaidal Cain is in Tel before we meet Olver, RJ surely would have seen this contradiction when he introduced Olver.  If he wanted Olver to be GC, he would need to have Birgitte just say that GC had been reborn before she meets any of the main characters in Tel.  

I suspect that GC is some random baby during the main series.  Birgitte will be reborn some time after the last battle and meet GC as it always happens in their story.  

I understand that the timeline might not work out.  Just being willfully ignorant because I want it to be true.

[Samt]

26 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

The Last Battle was effectively a battle of Free Will vs Determinism. The outcome is a mix of both, rather than choosing one absolute for another.

RJ being a freemason, probably played a role in the Last Battle.

Not just the last battle.  Free Will vs. Determinism is one of the central questions of the series.  And more broadly, it is a central question to life and finding meaning and purpose in it.  The absolute answers don't really make sense.  Full free will is easily contradicted because we know there are things we can't affect.  Full determinism makes life hollow and meaningless.  The only satisfying answers are going to be compromises.  

[KakitaOCU]

Not so much a pet Theory, but something I was really convinced was RJ's plan but due to lack of detail didn't work that way.

I felt like Graendal should have died to Rand, come back for the last battle, done.  Because the entire issue with Perrin doesn't really fit Graendal.  She is doing her own thing, then all of a sudden, no wait, I have this master plan for Perrin with various pieces in place for most of the series... 

Meanwhile there is a Forsaken who's an expert dream walker, making her someone Perrin could fight, a master of subterfuge and indirect plans, and perfectly suited to be in that area and go after Perrin.

But because Graendal escapes, fights Perrin and then dies/reborn anyway we just have this giant gap of "Where's Mogedhien?"

[Scarloc99]

2 hours ago, Samt said:

This was something I considered as well, but the timelines don't really line up.  Olver had to be born 5+ years before TWotW in order to be the right age when we meet him.  Gaidal Cain is seen in Tel conversing with Birgitte prior to his rebirth during the series.  This means that in order for Olver to be Gaidal Cain something really weird would have to be going on.  

 

We know that time passes differently in Tel, but I had always assumed (and I think correctly) that this just means that time can go faster or slower. Tel and the real world are still parallel and time is always moving forward in both.  Gaidal Cain can't be in the real world as Olver at the same time he is in Tel.  

Alternately, maybe a different soul was Olver until Gaidal Cain came and took over the body.  Or maybe children have no souls until they are 9 years old.  Both of those have really weird implications, though.  

Or maybe Gaidal Cain is allowed to be "born" as a 9 year old boy and Olver's backstory is made up.  But this is also something that is never really hinted at and doesn't really fit with his character otherwise (maybe in this scenario, Olver actually believes his own fake backstory).  

So I don't think that Olver is Gaidal Cain. And considering that Gaidal Cain is in Tel before we meet Olver, RJ surely would have seen this contradiction when he introduced Olver.  If he wanted Olver to be GC, he would need to have Birgitte just say that GC had been reborn before she meets any of the main characters in Tel.  

I suspect that GC is some random baby during the main series.  Birgitte will be reborn some time after the last battle and meet GC as it always happens in their story.  

 

Rand's potential to destroy the DO was fully paid off, in my opinion.  At the last battle when Rand and the DO are showing each other alternate realities, one of them is a reality in which the Dark One doesn't exist.  But Rand sees that in this reality people have essentially lost their spark.  Not being able to choose evil makes it impossible to choose good.  It's just forced upon you.  The Dark One is quite literally a necessary evil.  

BS has said that RJ never got a chance to give him the full explanation on Padan Fain, so it's not clear if he was intended as a back up dark one (BUDO).  But I do like the theory that Padan Fain was the BUDO.  Exactly how it would have played out if Rand destroyed the Dark One is speculative, but I don't think Rand can actually win if he does that.  

An alternate, much darker, theory that I have is that if Rand had destroyed the Dark One, then Rand would become the Dark One.  Forcing people to choose good is only nominally better than forcing them to choose evil.  Again, the details of how this theory would play out are murky, but I think it is interesting.  

I always felt a far far better ending would have been Rand realising that the DO in the cell was not some all powerful godlike being, but a man, who became far too powerful and so needed to be imprisoned in an impenetrable prison in the last turning of the wheel. He realises he can destroy the dark one and believes that he has broken the cycle, only for Fain to appear and Rand realise that Fain can't be destroyed in this turning, he needs a cell, and, oh look, here is a handy one newly empty, just ignore that corpse in the corner please :).

The idea that the Darklord had helped create his own eventual replacement to his cell feeds really nicely into the whole cyclical nature of things. 

[Scarloc99]

2 hours ago, Samt said:

Rand's potential to destroy the DO was fully paid off, in my opinion.  At the last battle when Rand and the DO are showing each other alternate realities, one of them is a reality in which the Dark One doesn't exist.  But Rand sees that in this reality people have essentially lost their spark.  Not being able to choose evil makes it impossible to choose good.  It's just forced upon you.  The Dark One is quite literally a necessary evil.  

Way back in the early 90's Games Workshops Warhammer Fantasy world had a different pantheon. You had the chaos gods as we know them now, Nurgle, Tzeench, Khorne and Slaanesh. But you also had a lawful gods Solkan, Arianka and Alluminas. 

The idea was that the gods needed to exist in balance for mortals to develop and grow, if the forces of chaos ever won out then change would come so quickly all living things would destroy each other or themselves before any real progress could ever be made. You would have a world of constant war and constant change. If the Lawful gods won however then, much as in Rands vision, the world would stagnate. There would be no innovation, no change everyone would just exist. 

I have always loved that Pantheon idea. 

[SinisterDeath]

My original pet theory on my original read thru before the books concluded.

Rand wasn't never the Dragon Reborn.
Matrim, the hero who didn't want to be a hero, was the True Dragon.

[Vartija]

I liked the Mazrim Taim as Demanded option better than Demandred's actual arc. Taim always annoyed me a bit because it felt like his skills with the Power were undeservedly developed compared to Rand's. I don't know when RJ dropped that option but Taim's introduction to Rand in LoC (iirc) just screams Demandred. It would have given Demandred a much more visible role in the series instead of the Sharan arc which kind of came out of nowhere in the Last Battle.  

[KakitaOCU]

Yeah, I don't know why RJ changed that, but it leaves a few weird gaps.   Although it makes sense that Shai'Tan would be developing new agents.

[Samt]

57 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Yeah, I don't know why RJ changed that, but it leaves a few weird gaps.   Although it makes sense that Shai'Tan would be developing new agents.

On the other hand, the Dashiva is Osan'gar reveal seemed poorly set up.  I wonder if Dashiva was Osan'gar when Demandred was Taim.  Maybe a switch occurred.  

 

 

[Scarloc99]

6 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Yeah, I don't know why RJ changed that, but it leaves a few weird gaps.   Although it makes sense that Shai'Tan would be developing new agents.

Are we certain RJ made that change as opposed to Brandon Sanderson (I can’t remember which book it is that it becomes clear they can’t be the same person). 

[SinisterDeath]

2 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Are we certain RJ made that change as opposed to Brandon Sanderson (I can’t remember which book it is that it becomes clear they can’t be the same person). 

Yes, the Taim = Demandred theory existed before Brandon, and RJ shot it down several times, even saying Demandred has not appeared on screen as any other character before knife of dreams... Which killed the theory. 

[KakitaOCU]

7 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Are we certain RJ made that change as opposed to Brandon Sanderson (I can’t remember which book it is that it becomes clear they can’t be the same person). 

And two second Sinister, we know the RJ notes are from during his writing of LOC.  And we know in Winter's Heart Demandred specifically does not recognize Damer Flinn, all before Sanderson's involvement.

[Sabio]

On 2/15/2023 at 9:15 AM, Vartija said:

I liked the Mazrim Taim as Demanded option better than Demandred's actual arc. Taim always annoyed me a bit because it felt like his skills with the Power were undeservedly developed compared to Rand's. I don't know when RJ dropped that option but Taim's introduction to Rand in LoC (iirc) just screams Demandred. It would have given Demandred a much more visible role in the series instead of the Sharan arc which kind of came out of nowhere in the Last Battle.  

I always guessed it was one of two reasons  (maybe a combination) first so many guessed it so quickly it ruined any surprise.  Secondly with Dem being more of a general type and his deep hatred of LTT, having him play yes man to Rand wouldn't fit.  If Dem was in charge of the Black Tower I think RJ discovered it made a mess of who is forming the Shara armies.  He would have had to try and place another forsaken in Shara.

[Scarloc99]

I like the Taim story as is because it shows that there are people in the world right now who have the ambition and desire to be the Chosen one. You can have ambitious evil people at any time. We see that amongst the Aes Sedai so having it mirrored in the black tower made perfect sense. 

I do wish we had seen the ambition and conflict between the old forsaken and the new played out more. Characters like Taim actually vying and being given the opportunity to supplant the older Forsaken, the Dark Lord using an excuse that failure by the old has opened up opportunity for the new. It never really made sense to me that Taim would willingly move from being number 2 of really 2, or even number 3 (behind Rand and Logain) to being what, number 7 or 8 in line for Naeblis? 

[KakitaOCU]

37 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

It never really made sense to me that Taim would willingly move from being number 2 of really 2, or even number 3 (behind Rand and Logain) to being what, number 7 or 8 in line for Naeblis? 

Ambition and confidence?  He believes being head of the Black Tower and being who he is he can eventually take all the others off the board.   What is that with Rand?  If he kills Rand he.... What... Tries to fight the last battle in his place?  Nope, taking out Rand means the DO wins.  So if the DO wins he needs to be on the right side of that conflict (From his perspective).

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

On 2/14/2023 at 7:19 AM, Samt said:

This was something I considered as well, but the timelines don't really line up.  Olver had to be born 5+ years before TWotW in order to be the right age when we meet him.  Gaidal Cain is seen in Tel conversing with Birgitte prior to his rebirth during the series.  This means that in order for Olver to be Gaidal Cain something really weird would have to be going on.  

 

We know that time passes differently in Tel, but I had always assumed (and I think correctly) that this just means that time can go faster or slower. Tel and the real world are still parallel and time is always moving forward in both.  Gaidal Cain can't be in the real world as Olver at the same time he is in Tel.  

Alternately, maybe a different soul was Olver until Gaidal Cain came and took over the body.  Or maybe children have no souls until they are 9 years old.  Both of those have really weird implications, though.  

Or maybe Gaidal Cain is allowed to be "born" as a 9 year old boy and Olver's backstory is made up.  But this is also something that is never really hinted at and doesn't really fit with his character otherwise (maybe in this scenario, Olver actually believes his own fake backstory).  

So I don't think that Olver is Gaidal Cain. And considering that Gaidal Cain is in Tel before we meet Olver, RJ surely would have seen this contradiction when he introduced Olver.  If he wanted Olver to be GC, he would need to have Birgitte just say that GC had been reborn before she meets any of the main characters in Tel.  

I suspect that GC is some random baby during the main series.  Birgitte will be reborn some time after the last battle and meet GC as it always happens in their story.  

 

Rand's potential to destroy the DO was fully paid off, in my opinion.  At the last battle when Rand and the DO are showing each other alternate realities, one of them is a reality in which the Dark One doesn't exist.  But Rand sees that in this reality people have essentially lost their spark.  Not being able to choose evil makes it impossible to choose good.  It's just forced upon you.  The Dark One is quite literally a necessary evil.  

BS has said that RJ never got a chance to give him the full explanation on Padan Fain, so it's not clear if he was intended as a back up dark one (BUDO).  But I do like the theory that Padan Fain was the BUDO.  Exactly how it would have played out if Rand destroyed the Dark One is speculative, but I don't think Rand can actually win if he does that.  

An alternate, much darker, theory that I have is that if Rand had destroyed the Dark One, then Rand would become the Dark One.  Forcing people to choose good is only nominally better than forcing them to choose evil.  Again, the details of how this theory would play out are murky, but I think it is interesting.  

I definitely understand and appreciate your thoughts on this, and agree. I guess I’m just hung up on the confusion that I have about the DO being apparently defeated permanently by Rand in the last battle. If the choice of the dark side is necessary (which I agree with, free will doesn’t exist in truth without something to choose for or against) then what is the purpose of destroying it? And now what? I kinda wonder if the collective consciousness of the people, if they continue on as before without having transcended the consciousness of division and separation and selfishness, will inevitably create a dark force. Similar to mordeth and shadar logoth, meaning that it seems that the mindset of the people created the evil force that was their downfall. 

[Pandemonium]

Yes, even though Graendal killing Asmodean made the most sense, it sure would have been more fun if Lanfear had done the job.

 

 did Asmodean and Graendal ever even talk on the pages?

 

Many other things RJ brought up in the pages were never picked up by Sanderson.  I'm pretty rusty on the books now, but I believe the Seafolk got shortthrifted.  I believe Min had a vision around one of them that never came to fruition. 

 

Also I believe Min had sone vision about Narishma that was never expounded upon.

 

I had a whole list of these thoughts at one point but my last reread was over 10 years ago and that's all I got

 

[Scarloc99]

On 2/18/2023 at 6:52 AM, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

I definitely understand and appreciate your thoughts on this, and agree. I guess I’m just hung up on the confusion that I have about the DO being apparently defeated permanently by Rand in the last battle. If the choice of the dark side is necessary (which I agree with, free will doesn’t exist in truth without something to choose for or against) then what is the purpose of destroying it? And now what? I kinda wonder if the collective consciousness of the people, if they continue on as before without having transcended the consciousness of division and separation and selfishness, will inevitably create a dark force. Similar to mordeth and shadar logoth, meaning that it seems that the mindset of the people created the evil force that was their downfall. 

The dark one was defeated in this turning of the wheel. The way I see roughly it is as follows. 
 

1st age - creation, humanity evolves and becomes sentient reaching the point of organised community. The only remnants from the previous age are a sense of there being a creator and a dark opposite force. This leads to the creation of competing religions and all the issues that creates. There is conflict and war as humanity fights for resources and land. 
 

2nd age - starts with the discovery of the one power and the emergence of the first individuals able to manipulate and control

it, in some ways as the first age started with the evolution of humanity into intelligent sentient beings, the 2nd age starts with the next stage of evolution as some humans gain that genetic ability to use the one power. The age of legends emerges, war, crime and sickness are slowly eradicated. Humanity splits into 2 with those able to channel taking on all leadership and ruling positions, mainly due to being so long lived, and all non channelers become workers and servants. During this age the prison is identified and broken in some way. But also during this age discovery of the power means humanity slowly moves away from belief in religion and so loses the meaning to those warning messages. This age always ends with the release and imprisonment of the dark lord. And the birth and death of the eventual dragon who will defeat him. 
 

3rd age - Humanity strives to survive and rediscover lost knowledge and skills while fighting the forces of the dark lord and recovering from almost being made extinct. The age ends with the last battle and the imprisoning of the dark lord. 
 

4th Age - Humanity starts to thrive again, rebuilding relearning what has been los and learning new skills. 
 

5th age - the power Rand expressed at the end of the series becomes more wide spread possibly 

 

6th age - humanity continues to evolve maybe also moves out to the stars and then some fall begins. from here possibly tales of the dragon and the DO turn into myth and legend. Forgotten slowly by history. 

 

7th age - events put in place to lead to some great catastrophe, or humanity is just wiped from the earth or evolves beyond anything we can understand (maybe that is what the Finn are). Something happens to set the world back to the events of the start of the first age. 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

8 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

The dark one was defeated in this turning of the wheel. The way I see roughly it is as follows. 
 

1st age - creation, humanity evolves and becomes sentient reaching the point of organised community. The only remnants from the previous age are a sense of there being a creator and a dark opposite force. This leads to the creation of competing religions and all the issues that creates. There is conflict and war as humanity fights for resources and land. 
 

2nd age - starts with the discovery of the one power and the emergence of the first individuals able to manipulate and control

it, in some ways as the first age started with the evolution of humanity into intelligent sentient beings, the 2nd age starts with the next stage of evolution as some humans gain that genetic ability to use the one power. The age of legends emerges, war, crime and sickness are slowly eradicated. Humanity splits into 2 with those able to channel taking on all leadership and ruling positions, mainly due to being so long lived, and all non channelers become workers and servants. During this age the prison is identified and broken in some way. But also during this age discovery of the power means humanity slowly moves away from belief in religion and so loses the meaning to those warning messages. This age always ends with the release and imprisonment of the dark lord. And the birth and death of the eventual dragon who will defeat him. 
 

3rd age - Humanity strives to survive and rediscover lost knowledge and skills while fighting the forces of the dark lord and recovering from almost being made extinct. The age ends with the last battle and the imprisoning of the dark lord. 
 

4th Age - Humanity starts to thrive again, rebuilding relearning what has been los and learning new skills. 
 

5th age - the power Rand expressed at the end of the series becomes more wide spread possibly 

 

6th age - humanity continues to evolve maybe also moves out to the stars and then some fall begins. from here possibly tales of the dragon and the DO turn into myth and legend. Forgotten slowly by history. 

 

7th age - events put in place to lead to some great catastrophe, or humanity is just wiped from the earth or evolves beyond anything we can understand (maybe that is what the Finn are). Something happens to set the world back to the events of the start of the first age. 

That’s a very well organized and well presented explanation, and it definitely helps me understand the things that were causing my confusion. I didn’t quite grasp that the “last” battle was not literally some ultimate or final event. The wheel keeps turning and the cycle continues. I get it now and I appreciate your answer.