Your honest first opinions of the early series (books 1-3).

[Scarloc99]

I am rereading the series for the second time end to end, but like many have read the earlier books much more and, with the release of the TV show, have found myself reassessing some of the earlier books. 
 

I remember I bought the first 3 maybe 4 books all together, I was going on holiday and wanted a fantasy series to read. I had just finished the 2nd Thomas covenant trilogy and, naively, thought that a 6 books series (book 6 had recently been released) was a complete series. 
 

I will be honest, Eye of the world was a struggle. I didn’t find it the can’t put down book some seem to, I do now, but that first read through it just all felt very generic, especially at the start. The characters were a copy paste of the standard trope I had seen in Dragonlance, lord of the rings or other similar series. You had the Bard who was great with knives and despite his attitude had a heart of good and would die for those he cared for. The wizard, enigmatic never sharing her plans with anyone sheparding and protecting those around with also having a dangerous edge. You had the chancer, the cheeky character who got others in trouble but for the right reasons. The strong character who didn’t want to hurt and learnt he had a secret. And then the reluctant hero, the trainee wizard and the character who saw themselves as the protector. 
 

The story as it started wasn’t that inspiring either, Orc replacement creatures attack an isolated villiage and seem to be hunting the 3 boys, said wizard saves them and then leads them away supposedly to safety while she works out why this is happening. They then go on a whistle stop tour around the land so you as a reader get a feel for the world the author has written and some stuff happens, all of which was pretty standard fantasy story. 
 

I remember finishing the first book and looking in a shop where I was to see if there was anything else worth reading I was that uninspired to continue the series straight away, but, luckily there wasn’t so I dived into book 2, this was better in some ways, although still felt very generic in some ways initially. Main characters have to chase off after a thing again only now the stuff that happened to them felt less and less generic as Robert Jordan started breaking from how he had started and injecting more and more of his vision into the world. 
 

I carried on into book 3 and while this was another journey across the land (books 1-3 do feel a bit like a coach tour of Randland, see it all now in passing and we will come back for more detailed tours later). It grabbed me, the Aiel (I still remember that scene Nyn, Elayne and Egwene looking around thinking the aiel a a long way away and then they stand up almost in touching distance) and as we all know book 4 then becomes one of the best in the series. 
 

My point, and question here, is that for a long long time In have looked at book one with rose tinted glasses, I also, having read more about the series, have understood the reasons why it feels like it did, a combination of Robert Jordan needing to fit a model for publishing, alongside himself working out his voice, style and the world as well as wanting to present an easily digestible opening few books to entice readers into his world. 
 

But it doesn’t take away the fact that book 1 when put against the rest of the series, is an outlier it has a different voice and feel to it and, can feel very trope, and it then takes RJ almost 2-3 books to finally find his own unique voice. 
 

thoughts? 

 

Edited December 26, 2022 by Sir_Charrid

[DojoToad]

I loved the books from the start - even book one with its unsatisfactory ending.  But I have now spent a lot of time on DM and watched some of the show.  I see what other people liked and disliked whereas before I was enjoying the books in a vacuum of my own experience.  I'll be interested to see how the books hold up for me now that my horizons have been broadened.  A few more months and I'll start again...

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

I loved the books from the start - even book one with its unsatisfactory ending.  But I have now spent a lot of time on DM and watched some of the show.  I see what other people liked and disliked whereas before I was enjoying the books in a vacuum of my own experience.  I'll be interested to see how the books hold up for me now that my horizons have been broadened.  A few more months and I'll start again...

You see it is strange, re reading them I love the first 2 far more then I did originally, but I wonder if it is me projecting where I know the characters are going? 

[DojoToad]

49 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

You see it is strange, re reading them I love the first 2 far more then I did originally, but I wonder if it is me projecting where I know the characters are going? 

Could be. Just as the Andorran succession and Faile’s Shaido problem became more bearable for me after Sanderson took over and tied those arcs off. Re-reads we’re much better 

[VooDooNut]

7 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I am rereading the series for the second time end to end, but like many have read the earlier books much more and, with the release of the TV show, have found myself reassessing some of the earlier books. 
 

I remember I bought the first 3 maybe 4 books all together, I was going on holiday and wanted a fantasy series to read. I had just finished the 2nd Thomas covenant trilogy and, naively, thought that a 6 books series (book 6 had recently been released) was a complete series. 
 

I will be honest, Eye of the world was a struggle. I didn’t find it the can’t put down book some seem to, I do now, but that first read through it just all felt very generic, especially at the start. The characters were a copy paste of the standard trope I had seen in Dragonlance, lord of the rings or other similar series. You had the Bard who was great with knives and despite his attitude had a heart of good and would die for those he cared for. The wizard, enigmatic never sharing her plans with anyone sheparding and protecting those around with also having a dangerous edge. You had the chancer, the cheeky character who got others in trouble but for the right reasons. The strong character who didn’t want to hurt and learnt he had a secret. And then the reluctant hero, the trainee wizard and the character who saw themselves as the protector. 
 

The story as it started wasn’t that inspiring either, Orc replacement creatures attack an isolated villiage and seem to be hunting the 3 boys, said wizard saves them and then leads them away supposedly to safety while she works out why this is happening. They then go on a whistle stop tour around the land so you as a reader get a feel for the world the author has written and some stuff happens, all of which was pretty standard fantasy story. 
 

I remember finishing the first book and looking in a shop where I was to see if there was anything else worth reading I was that uninspired to continue the series straight away, but, luckily there wasn’t so I dived into book 2, this was better in some ways, although still felt very generic in some ways initially. Main characters have to chase off after a thing again only now the stuff that happened to them felt less and less generic as Robert Jordan started breaking from how he had started and injecting more and more of his vision into the world. 
 

I carried on into book 3 and while this was another journey across the land (books 1-3 do feel a bit like a coach tour of Randland, see it all now in passing and we will come back for more detailed tours later). It grabbed me, the Aiel (I still remember that scene Nyn, Elayne and Egwene looking around thinking the aiel a a long way away and then they stand up almost in touching distance) and as we all know book 4 then becomes one of the best in the series. 
 

My point, and question here, is that for a long long time In have looked at book one with rose tinted glasses, I also, having read more about the series, have understood the reasons why it feels like it did, a combination of Robert Jordan needing to fit a model for publishing, alongside himself working out his voice, style and the world as well as wanting to present an easily digestible opening few books to entice readers into his world. 
 

But it doesn’t take away the fact that book 1 when put against the rest of the series, is an outlier it has a different voice and feel to it and, can feel very trope, and it then takes RJ almost 2-3 books to finally find his own unique voice. 
 

thoughts? 

 

Took the words out of my mouth.

[VooDooNut]

It gets better as RJ progresses but EOTW has a lot of redundant tropes from LOTR et al.

[WheelofJuke]

I vividly recall my initial reading of books 1-3, despite it being over 20 years ago. 

There was definitely a sense of a lot of common fantasy themes being borrowed...and a sort of feeling of "well, what exactly does this series have to offer, here?" To be honest, I remember being quite disappointed at the end of book 1. 

EotW suffers from too many deus ex machina parts, and the hurried "go through a convenient cellar door to rush to a final destination" kinda sets the stage for a lot of Jordan's "Oh looks like I need to wrap this up...jump somewhere else unexpectedly for a random boss battle."

Books 2-3 really start to shine, though. The Portal Stones, Verin/Selene, Ingtar's revelation, & Rand v. Turak/Rand v. Ishy.

Book 3 is what sold me on the series. I didn't get a lot of what was going on, first read through, but the scope seemed to swell epically at this time, and I really loved Egwene/Nynaeve in these early books.

As time has gone on, and I've gained perspective on their place in the completed series as a whole, I still have a fondness for the first 4 books especially.  

[Guire]

I loved the books from the beginning.  In early 80s I read lots of Fantasy and SciFi.  Anything I could find in library or bookstore.  I read all of Tolkien, Dune, Anne Mccaphery, Brooks, Stephen King, more trashy sword and sorcery books than is imaginable.

In 1991 I was on Iraqi border drawing down from Desert Storm.  I had just turned 20.  Found EoTW and TGH in a morale box.  Read them both twice before I left Saudi.  I have always read the  series as a soldiers march to war.  Certain feelings and themes just made sense to me.  Later when I learned that Jordan had been a soldier it made perfect sense.  Even as it dipped into more and more fantastical elements the world always felt real and lived in. After TSR it was like a vacation I took every year.  I would reread each book before a new one dropped.  I have only read AMoL a maybe 3 full times.  The earlier books probably 20 times each for first 7.  Just did a quick reread of EoTW.  Seeing kindly wise stoic Agelmar and revisiting the Green Man were magical.  

[DojoToad]

2 hours ago, Guire said:

I loved the books from the beginning.  In early 80s I read lots of Fantasy and SciFi.  Anything I could find in library or bookstore.  I read all of Tolkien, Dune, Anne Mccaphery, Brooks, Stephen King, more trashy sword and sorcery books than is imaginable.

In 1991 I was on Iraqi border drawing down from Desert Storm.  I had just turned 20.  Found EoTW and TGH in a morale box.  Read them both twice before I left Saudi.  I have always read the  series as a soldiers march to war.  Certain feelings and themes just made sense to me.  Later when I learned that Jordan had been a soldier it made perfect sense.  Even as it dipped into more and more fantastical elements the world always felt real and lived in. After TSR it was like a vacation I took every year.  I would reread each book before a new one dropped.  I have only read AMoL a maybe 3 full times.  The earlier books probably 20 times each for first 7.  Just did a quick reread of EoTW.  Seeing kindly wise stoic Agelmar and revisiting the Green Man were magical.  

Not perfect by any means, but WoT has always been great lit to me.  Never read anything so re-readable.

[Asthereal]

Book 1: 7.5 to 8 out of 10
Book 2: 8 to 8.5 out of 10
Book 3: 9 out of 10

This after my first read. Books 2 and 3 might switch upon rereads.

 

TEotW is good but not great. TGH felt like a better book (better pacing, clearer what happens) but I did not enjoy it more as the characters did a lot of similar stuff. TDR felt a lot more exciting and the perspective change was a great idea to both get us more invested in the other characters (hello, Mat!) and fear more for Rand as we have no idea what he's up to, except that he's probably doing dumb things. TDR was a thrill ride and convinced me to give the entire series a try.

[Blackbyrd]

Books 1-3 through are all quite good. Really- If I could dig one thing from his mind it would be his takes on other books, he was a fantastic reader. In particular I would say book 1 is WAY underrated. It may not be the most original but it's written deftly and for those who read well that meeting at the Eye- it's glorious.

 

Eye is an outlier of the series though. You might remember it but should one ever read Eye of the world then read The Great Hunt back to back there is a definite change of pacing. Also, let's never underestimate the Battle of Falme, one of the 3 great endings in the series. 

 

Though from an artistic perspective it's clear books 4-6 have more going opposed to some of the technical adroitness of the first three

Edited January 9, 2023 by Blackbyrd

[Asthereal]

8 hours ago, Blackbyrd said:

Books 1-3 through are all quite good. Really- If I could dig one thing from his mind it would be his takes on other books, he was a fantastic reader. In particular I would say book 1 is WAY underrated. It may not be the most original but it's written deftly and for those who read well that meeting at the Eye- it's glorious.

 

Eye is an outlier of the series though. You might remember it but should one ever read Eye of the world then read The Great Hunt back to back there is a definite change of pacing. Also, let's never underestimate the Battle of Falme, one of the 3 great endings in the series. 

 

Though from an artistic perspective it's clear books 4-6 have more going opposed to some of the technical adroitness of the first three

 

I love how everybody sees these books differently and finds different things to enjoy about them. I reread the bit around the Eye as I was confused as heck, but I still didn't think it was clear what was going on. But I completely agree the ending to book 2 is excellent. That one felt a lot more clear, even though weird stuff happens (how is Rand flying all of a sudden?). There were clear stakes, everybody had a clear goal and yet there was room for mystery, giving the whole thing an exciting yet "magical" feel. Also, Rand made a decision in the end. Loved that line. 🙂 

 

Books 4-6 is where the story gets more original, modern and to me more interesting, but books 1-3 were good enough (and for me they got better as they went along), that I felt compelled to read the whole thing. I even thought it was so good I decided to switch from Dutch to English.

 

If you see my WoT collection, you'll laugh so hard! 😛 

Spoiler

Books 1 and 2 are Dutch paperbacks from the 90s. Book 3 is a modern Dutch paperback. Books 4-6 and 7-9 are mass market American paperback boxes (don't buy those, they're cheap but suck), book 10 is an original first edition American paperback, books 11, 12 and 13 are British hardcovers from Orbit and book 14 is the Americal hardcover from Tor. Oh and New Spring is the current American paperback from Tor.

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by Asthereal

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, Asthereal said:

 

I love how everybody sees these books differently and finds different things to enjoy about them. I reread the bit around the Eye as I was confused as heck, but I still didn't think it was clear what was going on. But I completely agree the ending to book 2 is excellent. That one felt a lot more clear, even though weird stuff happens (how is Rand flying all of a sudden?). There were clear stakes, everybody had a clear goal and yet there was room for mystery, giving the whole thing an exciting yet "magical" feel. Also, Rand made a decision in the end. Loved that line. 🙂 

 

Books 4-6 is where the story gets more original, modern and to me more interesting, but books 1-3 were good enough (and for me they got better as they went along), that I felt compelled to read the whole thing. I event thought it was so good I decided to switch from Dutch to English.

 

If you see my WoT collection, you'll laugh so hard! 😛 

  Hide contents

Books 1 and 2 are Dutch paperbacks from the 90s. Book 3 is a modern Dutch paperback. Books 4-6 and 7-9 are mass market American paperback boxes (don't buy those, they're cheap but suck), book 10 is an original first edition Americal paperback, books 11, 12 and 13 are British hardcovers from Orbit and book 14 is the Americal hardcover from Tor. Oh and New Spring is the current American paperback from Tor.

 

Lol - that's how my ASOIAF collection is, at least the 5 books I have.  Goes back and forth between SF Book Club and first release hard covers.  No paperbacks though.

[swollymammoth]

I'm in the middle of Book 3 rn, and I've got to say that I'm liking the early books way more than I expected on the re-read. I heard Brandon Sanderson say once that Jordan's goal was to create a Modernist Tolkien, wo the trappings are familiar on purpose, but I find that they contain enough wrinkles to keep the story fresh. EotW might be the most action-packed of all the books until the final 3, and TGH is just epic. 

 

I was in Brandon's 15 person writing class this last year, and he spent a lot of time talking about Jordan. In Brandon's opinion, Jordan's writing is pretty much second to none, not just for his descriptions but for his command over viewpoint. Even though the characters fit into rather tropey molds, Jordan puts the reader so firmly in their perspective that they end up compelling. We're always learning something new about the characters and the world as we see the story through someone's eyes. That's characterization. 

 

I do think that there are reasons people sour on the earlier books, but I don't think those are the reasons that they say. It's tough to capture these things in words. I think it's more about the shift in mindset away from, "Fantasy readers want to see a world, simulating a D&D adventure that winds, takes detours, and isn't locked on rails" to a preference for tighter storytelling where the experience is less about enjoying the now and more about barreling toward the next big reveal. 

 

That's just my opinion though. 

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, swollymammoth said:

I'm in the middle of Book 3 rn, and I've got to say that I'm liking the early books way more than I expected on the re-read. I heard Brandon Sanderson say once that Jordan's goal was to create a Modernist Tolkien, wo the trappings are familiar on purpose, but I find that they contain enough wrinkles to keep the story fresh. EotW might be the most action-packed of all the books until the final 3, and TGH is just epic. 

 

I was in Brandon's 15 person writing class this last year, and he spent a lot of time talking about Jordan. In Brandon's opinion, Jordan's writing is pretty much second to none, not just for his descriptions but for his command over viewpoint. Even though the characters fit into rather tropey molds, Jordan puts the reader so firmly in their perspective that they end up compelling. We're always learning something new about the characters and the world as we see the story through someone's eyes. That's characterization. 

 

I do think that there are reasons people sour on the earlier books, but I don't think those are the reasons that they say. It's tough to capture these things in words. I think it's more about the shift in mindset away from, "Fantasy readers want to see a world, simulating a D&D adventure that winds, takes detours, and isn't locked on rails" to a preference for tighter storytelling where the experience is less about enjoying the now and more about barreling toward the next big reveal. 

 

That's just my opinion though. 

I mean my issue isn’t railroads, I have read some books I love that stick on one path, the hobbit and LOTR as 2 examples,  I just feel in book 1 especially and then in parts of 2 and 3 RJ is finding his voice still. Book 1 especially is from a very limited POV, I think RJ realised towards the end he needed to open that up. 
 

I am not saying the books are awful, far from it just that across the whole series they are the weaker of them all, especially with the sheer repetition of story thread throughout all 3. 

[Pandemonium]

Book 1 not my favorite, but good enough to keep me reading.  especially towards the end.  Upon rereading I enjoyed more due to all the foreshadowing.

 

Book 2.  absolutely love this book and it hooked me on the series.  Watching Rand become a full blown badass, the Seanchan, the horn, Hurin, Ingtar, Barthanes manor, Lanfear, the Illuminators, Rands fight with Turak, the girls struggles in Seachan.  

Book 2 is still in my top 3 for the series, although I know many people disagree.

 

Book 3.  Love this book as well.  The Tanchico patts with girls drags, but the rest if the book is fabulous.  Watching Matt take off is the best part of this book.  Book 3 is a top 5 book for me for the series. 

 

The other 3 books that eound my top 5 are books 4, 5, and 6.  I'd say book 4 is probably my favorite.  After that the series becomes bloated and progressed much slower until Sanderson wraps it up

 

 

[Stedding Tofu]

I loved the series from the start and it was the groundwork laid in TEOTW that engaged my attention and set everything up: the prophecy of the Dragon, Rand's identity, the Aiel involvement, Aes Sedai factions, The Children of The Light, The Forsaken, the taint and the madness, the teetering nature of the Randland monarchies, the threat of the shadow and the blight.  All our main characters have their feet set on their series arcs though t's not immediately obvious where they will end up (Rand aside).

 

Like others I picked up TEOTW when it was the opener to a (then published) six book series rumoured to be intended as a ten book series so I knew I was reading an introduction to a larger story.  The only difficulty I had was the disconnect between The Prologue and the opening chapters as The Prologue seemed so isolated and I had no idea what I was reading yet and then the initial few chapters were very slow, setting a bucolic country scene in a quiet backwater, hardly edge of the seat stuff.  Of course in retrospect The Prologue gives us a lot of key information - not least that Ishamael was never bound! - and once the story sprang in to life with the Trolloc smashing down Rand's door on Winternight and then Moiraine's beautiful tale of why Emond's Field is named and the helter-skelter flight to try and find safety I was hooked.

 

It's also true that when RJ pitched his story he had no real idea how long it would be (something that came back to bite) and so the pacing and plot development in the earlier books is sometimes inconsistent.  Indeed at the time I first bought the books it was said the first three could be read as standalone stories or in any order as it was unclear when they were published whether RJ would have enough traction to write the full series and the plots of each novel, though linked, were self-contained.  TGH in particular is, on the surface, purely a story about recovering the horn of valere, but really we see Egwene Nynaeve and Elayne beginning their development into Aes Sedai, Rand struggling with his destiny before finally embracing it at the end and both the Aiel and the Seanchan are introduced.

 

TEOTW is something of a tribute to JRRT but as a JRRT fan this never bothered me.  It made the world, the stakes, the themes and the story clear in outline though the complexity and diversity that RJ unrolled necessarily came as the series developed.  A fairer comparison in scope would be to compare TEOTW to Book one of the Fellowship of The Ring rather than to TLOTR overall.  The comparisons are obvious in TEOTW: The Two Rivers is the ignorant isolated backwater of The Shire, The Emond's Fielders are The Hobbits who have never been more than two days from home, Moiraine is Gandalf, Lan the uncrowned King is very obviously Aragorn, Padan Fain is Gollum searching for "Baggins", The Fades on their black horses are the black riders/nazgul, Moiraine's speech about Emond's Field is analogous to Gandalf's exposition to Frodo in The Shadow of The Past, the flight from The Two Rivers is analogous to the Flight to The Ford, Tar Valon is initially held out as  place of safety like Rivendell; the company of eight once Nynaeve joins is comparable to the nine members of the fellowship, Shadar Logoth is equivalent to Moria/Khazad-dum and the fellowship is broken (ofc Thom does not die) though these last echo Book Two of The Fellowship rather than Book One.

 

It's best to read 1-3 as the introduction to the series: once Rand has finally embraced his destiny as The Dragon Reborn and the series commercial success guaranteed RJ could reveal the full depth and scope of the story.  If people read them as they were published they might have a different view but I was able to read (and did)  books 1 - 6 back to back.

 

So, in general Books 1 -3 are a good introduction to the series and set the hook but books 4 - 6 were the real deal for me as Rand set about trying to unite the Aiel and the kingdoms, to manage the Aes Sedai and defeat the Forsaken, leading to the extraordinary conclusion to LoC at Dumai's Wells.  I picked up ACoS fully expecting that we had moved into the end game and that Tarmon Gai'don was on the way for books 7 -10 but alas 7 -10 gave us Cadsuane to spank Rand's bottom and call him boy and largely trod water before 11 -14 delivered the ending.

 

We can't expect The Battle of The Pelennor Fields or Helm's Deep in Books 1-3: for the equivalent of those we have to wait for later.

 

12 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Book 1 especially is from a very limited POV, I think RJ realised towards the end he needed to open that up.

 

TEOTW is told entirely form Rand's pov, the only exception being for the brief period of separation after Shadar Logoth when Nynaeve and Perrin are also povs because our characters are in three different places.  Moiraine also gets a cameo at the end to announce that Rand truly is the dragon reborn, something she has not laid on him fully as let's face it, it's a lot to handle and just being able to channel and knowing he will go mad is quite enough for the moment.

 

I would argue this tight focus is intentional - part of the TLOTR tribute as Rand is essentially Frodo for this book, on a mission to travel to The Eye in The Blight (read Mount Doom in Mordor) and win a battle against The Shadow (read destroy The One Ring).

 

But when our characters are in different places RJ uses and develops their pov voices skilfully.  Seeing Nynaeve nurturing a grudge against Moiraine from her own pov is both hilarious and exasperating, seeing Perrin wrestle with what is happening to him is, well, a bit dull but it fits his character.  Rand is also the main storyteller in TGH though Nynaeve and Egwene tell the story in The White Tower and Perrin when Rand and Loial are separated from Ingtar by portal stone.  In TDR Rand disappears almost entirely and Perrin, Egwene and Mat emerge as the storytellers, showing imo RJ always intended to use multiple characters and voices to tell his story that is not just Rand and substitute people to tell us stuff in the place he is not.

 

In essence I think RJ uses as many voices as he needs in the early books based on location but even in TGH he is open to minor characters being povs for brief periods: we see through Geofram Bornhald, Liandrin, Padan Fain, Bayle Domon, Jaret Byar, Thom Merrilin and Min's povs as needed.  As the story goes on we have too many povs and too many characters competing for pov space and it becomes a problem.  That's not unique: GRRM has a similar problem with ASOIAF (though JRRT managed to keep it confined to eight of the fellowship).

[Kalessin]

As a long-time fan of JRR Tolkien and Frank Herbert, it's obvious to me that those are the two major influences on The Eye of the World. And as in The Sword of Shannara, it's pretty obvious that RJ is pretty pedantic about following a similar arc for the beginning of his series.

 

That said, he manages to break out of it fairly early on, imho. There isn't any analogy to Bayle Domon in TLotR; the nearest to that in Dune is the smugglers such as Esmar Tuek. And likewise, the Hunt for the Horn of Valery.

 

He does take his time to find his own voice.

[Some_random_novice]

On 1/12/2023 at 5:17 AM, Stedding Tofu said:

I loved the series from the start and it was the groundwork laid in TEOTW that engaged my attention and set everything up: the prophecy of the Dragon, Rand's identity, the Aiel involvement, Aes Sedai factions, The Children of The Light, The Forsaken, the taint and the madness, the teetering nature of the Randland monarchies, the threat of the shadow and the blight.  All our main characters have their feet set on their series arcs though t's not immediately obvious where they will end up (Rand aside).

 

Like others I picked up TEOTW when it was the opener to a (then published) six book series rumoured to be intended as a ten book series so I knew I was reading an introduction to a larger story.  The only difficulty I had was the disconnect between The Prologue and the opening chapters as The Prologue seemed so isolated and I had no idea what I was reading yet and then the initial few chapters were very slow, setting a bucolic country scene in a quiet backwater, hardly edge of the seat stuff.  Of course in retrospect The Prologue gives us a lot of key information - not least that Ishamael was never bound! - and once the story sprang in to life with the Trolloc smashing down Rand's door on Winternight and then Moiraine's beautiful tale of why Emond's Field is named and the helter-skelter flight to try and find safety I was hooked.

 

It's also true that when RJ pitched his story he had no real idea how long it would be (something that came back to bite) and so the pacing and plot development in the earlier books is sometimes inconsistent.  Indeed at the time I first bought the books it was said the first three could be read as standalone stories or in any order as it was unclear when they were published whether RJ would have enough traction to write the full series and the plots of each novel, though linked, were self-contained.  TGH in particular is, on the surface, purely a story about recovering the horn of valere, but really we see Egwene Nynaeve and Elayne beginning their development into Aes Sedai, Rand struggling with his destiny before finally embracing it at the end and both the Aiel and the Seanchan are introduced.

 

TEOTW is something of a tribute to JRRT but as a JRRT fan this never bothered me.  It made the world, the stakes, the themes and the story clear in outline though the complexity and diversity that RJ unrolled necessarily came as the series developed.  A fairer comparison in scope would be to compare TEOTW to Book one of the Fellowship of The Ring rather than to TLOTR overall.  The comparisons are obvious in TEOTW: The Two Rivers is the ignorant isolated backwater of The Shire, The Emond's Fielders are The Hobbits who have never been more than two days from home, Moiraine is Gandalf, Lan the uncrowned King is very obviously Aragorn, Padan Fain is Gollum searching for "Baggins", The Fades on their black horses are the black riders/nazgul, Moiraine's speech about Emond's Field is analogous to Gandalf's exposition to Frodo in The Shadow of The Past, the flight from The Two Rivers is analogous to the Flight to The Ford, Tar Valon is initially held out as  place of safety like Rivendell; the company of eight once Nynaeve joins is comparable to the nine members of the fellowship, Shadar Logoth is equivalent to Moria/Khazad-dum and the fellowship is broken (ofc Thom does not die) though these last echo Book Two of The Fellowship rather than Book One.

 

It's best to read 1-3 as the introduction to the series: once Rand has finally embraced his destiny as The Dragon Reborn and the series commercial success guaranteed RJ could reveal the full depth and scope of the story.  If people read them as they were published they might have a different view but I was able to read (and did)  books 1 - 6 back to back.

 

So, in general Books 1 -3 are a good introduction to the series and set the hook but books 4 - 6 were the real deal for me as Rand set about trying to unite the Aiel and the kingdoms, to manage the Aes Sedai and defeat the Forsaken, leading to the extraordinary conclusion to LoC at Dumai's Wells.  I picked up ACoS fully expecting that we had moved into the end game and that Tarmon Gai'don was on the way for books 7 -10 but alas 7 -10 gave us Cadsuane to spank Rand's bottom and call him boy and largely trod water before 11 -14 delivered the ending.

 

We can't expect The Battle of The Pelennor Fields or Helm's Deep in Books 1-3: for the equivalent of those we have to wait for later.

 

 

TEOTW is told entirely form Rand's pov, the only exception being for the brief period of separation after Shadar Logoth when Nynaeve and Perrin are also povs because our characters are in three different places.  Moiraine also gets a cameo at the end to announce that Rand truly is the dragon reborn, something she has not laid on him fully as let's face it, it's a lot to handle and just being able to channel and knowing he will go mad is quite enough for the moment.

 

I would argue this tight focus is intentional - part of the TLOTR tribute as Rand is essentially Frodo for this book, on a mission to travel to The Eye in The Blight (read Mount Doom in Mordor) and win a battle against The Shadow (read destroy The One Ring).

 

But when our characters are in different places RJ uses and develops their pov voices skilfully.  Seeing Nynaeve nurturing a grudge against Moiraine from her own pov is both hilarious and exasperating, seeing Perrin wrestle with what is happening to him is, well, a bit dull but it fits his character.  Rand is also the main storyteller in TGH though Nynaeve and Egwene tell the story in The White Tower and Perrin when Rand and Loial are separated from Ingtar by portal stone.  In TDR Rand disappears almost entirely and Perrin, Egwene and Mat emerge as the storytellers, showing imo RJ always intended to use multiple characters and voices to tell his story that is not just Rand and substitute people to tell us stuff in the place he is not.

 

In essence I think RJ uses as many voices as he needs in the early books based on location but even in TGH he is open to minor characters being povs for brief periods: we see through Geofram Bornhald, Liandrin, Padan Fain, Bayle Domon, Jaret Byar, Thom Merrilin and Min's povs as needed.  As the story goes on we have too many povs and too many characters competing for pov space and it becomes a problem.  That's not unique: GRRM has a similar problem with ASOIAF (though JRRT managed to keep it confined to eight of the fellowship).

I too really enjoyed the first several books, but I have recently completed my second read through of books 1-6 and found that they were much better upon a second read through. Especially with foreshadowing. In my first read through I definitely had a problem with Rand, however I see how great the writing is and even though it feels like a pile of tropes it expands and makes the characters feel so real. I thought that books 2-3 had a much more interesting content on my first read through, however it only make the story more compelling after a read though of the entire series.

 

 

*Definitely ranting, apologizes for that.

[akaacer]

I agree with most of the comments. Someone mentioned that if you've read other fantasy its a bit jarring as the first few books didn't quite seem to fit the mold, but on re-read it's much better. I didn't like TDR until the end as it felt slow and nothing was happening.

 

Relationship development between the characters was a bit irritating at times. The Edmond fielders grew up together and most of the time they're so mean to each other that you forget they should be family. This is especially jarring when they are seperated and catch up together after weeks and months, you would expect warm receptions before the bickering starts. The way they interact and their thought bubbles describes their feelings, I was not sure if they should be enemies or childhood friends. I felt their should've been more balance between in the dialogue where we have more moments of camaraderie vs hostility. 

 

Moraine was a travelling companion, so I was expecting a closer relationship, a more softening, a more familiar relationship between the main characters and Moraine as the story progresses, but it always seems she's at an arm's length to the main characters. This is in contrast to Lan and Thom which whom we see develop close relationship to the main characters (to the boys anyway).

 

The Women and Men go from really loving and soft towards each other to just plain nastiness, and there's no inbetween where they're just working together. Matt and Rand needed to drop their suspicion (hatred) of Aes Sedai much earlier after receiving so much help. For example how can you be so mean and callous towards someone after they've just healed you or risked their lives to save you.  Its like neither sex trust each other, which is in contrast to what I believe is the main theme, ying and yang. The balance between opposites. 

 

The first 3 books could've been condensed into 2.

[Scarloc99]

10 hours ago, akaacer said:

I agree with most of the comments. Someone mentioned that if you've read other fantasy its a bit jarring as the first few books didn't quite seem to fit the mold, but on re-read it's much better. I didn't like TDR until the end as it felt slow and nothing was happening.

 

Relationship development between the characters was a bit irritating at times. The Edmond fielders grew up together and most of the time they're so mean to each other that you forget they should be family. This is especially jarring when they are seperated and catch up together after weeks and months, you would expect warm receptions before the bickering starts. The way they interact and their thought bubbles describes their feelings, I was not sure if they should be enemies or childhood friends. I felt their should've been more balance between in the dialogue where we have more moments of camaraderie vs hostility. 

 

Moraine was a travelling companion, so I was expecting a closer relationship, a more softening, a more familiar relationship between the main characters and Moraine as the story progresses, but it always seems she's at an arm's length to the main characters. This is in contrast to Lan and Thom which whom we see develop close relationship to the main characters (to the boys anyway).

 

The Women and Men go from really loving and soft towards each other to just plain nastiness, and there's no inbetween where they're just working together. Matt and Rand needed to drop their suspicion (hatred) of Aes Sedai much earlier after receiving so much help. For example how can you be so mean and callous towards someone after they've just healed you or risked their lives to save you.  Its like neither sex trust each other, which is in contrast to what I believe is the main theme, ying and yang. The balance between opposites. 

 

The first 3 books could've been condensed into 2.

The one thing I will say is that Matt's suspicion I always saw as a side effect of being infected. 

[Vartija]

On 2/8/2023 at 12:22 AM, akaacer said:

Relationship development between the characters was a bit irritating at times. The Edmond fielders grew up together and most of the time they're so mean to each other that you forget they should be family. This is especially jarring when they are seperated and catch up together after weeks and months, you would expect warm receptions before the bickering starts. The way they interact and their thought bubbles describes their feelings, I was not sure if they should be enemies or childhood friends. I felt their should've been more balance between in the dialogue where we have more moments of camaraderie vs hostility. 

 

Agree with this. I was always a bit let down by the reunion scenes in the books. On re-reads it's a bit jarring and sad at times to realize how much the characters grow apart from each other. And how much they bicker and argue among themselves when they are together. For supposed best friends type of relationship their interactions with each other are at times really cold and uncaring. 

[Stedding Tofu]

6 minutes ago, Vartija said:

Agree with this. I was always a bit let down by the reunion scenes in the books. On re-reads it's a bit jarring and sad at times to realize how much the characters grow apart from each other. And how much they bicker and argue among themselves when they are together. For supposed best friends type of relationship their interactions with each other are at times really cold and uncaring. 

 

I think this was RJ's take on growing up and the strains it puts on childhood bonds when all of a sudden you have very different views or interests and can't just shake hands or make up after an argument. 

 

Seeing Nynaeve and Egwene battle each other for dominance as Egwene grew out of her role as Nynaeve's apprentice is one example.  Seeing Faile encourage Perrin to consider his own interests and try to turn him into a Lord rather than just someone who has a duty to help Rand is another.  Or Mat's rather cold and self-interested determination to avoid Rand once he knows Rand can channel and will therefore go mad is unappealing but is understandable in terms of self-preservation.  And once he marries Tuon his position is even more conflicted - he even ends up potentially fathering the heir to the Seanchan Empire and owning a damane despite his own sister training to be Aes Sedai....

 

Childhood friends often retain close bonds but equally life often takes them in different directions and the bond withers.  It's sad and I agree, I found their inability to trust each other and work together and their constant bickering to be frustrating, but I'm not sure it's off the mark, maybe just a bit exaggerated. 

[KakitaOCU]

I still don't like book 1 and I initially didn't like book 2.  I had the advantage of having books 1-5 in my home already, having my parent force me to read LotR first, which meant book 1 seemed better by default and had the advantage that my OCD generally doesn't let me NOT know how a story continues or finishes, so once I read book 1 I had to read all we had.   

Book 3 is what got me going and kept my attention.  Mat and Perrin becoming more complex characters and getting more center stage brought me over.  

[Scarloc99]

5 hours ago, Stedding Tofu said:

 

I think this was RJ's take on growing up and the strains it puts on childhood bonds when all of a sudden you have very different views or interests and can't just shake hands or make up after an argument. 

 

Seeing Nynaeve and Egwene battle each other for dominance as Egwene grew out of her role as Nynaeve's apprentice is one example.  Seeing Faile encourage Perrin to consider his own interests and try to turn him into a Lord rather than just someone who has a duty to help Rand is another.  Or Mat's rather cold and self-interested determination to avoid Rand once he knows Rand can channel and will therefore go mad is unappealing but is understandable in terms of self-preservation.  And once he marries Tuon his position is even more conflicted - he even ends up potentially fathering the heir to the Seanchan Empire and owning a damane despite his own sister training to be Aes Sedai....

 

Childhood friends often retain close bonds but equally life often takes them in different directions and the bond withers.  It's sad and I agree, I found their inability to trust each other and work together and their constant bickering to be frustrating, but I'm not sure it's off the mark, maybe just a bit exaggerated. 

The biggest issue for me is that these relationship changes happen over about 18 months. I sometimes wish the story had a much longer time scale to really make sense of the behavior which doesn’t come across as friends drifting apart, but just teenagers being constantly bratty.