Your honest first opinions of the early series (books 1-3).

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

On 2/15/2023 at 9:55 AM, Stedding Tofu said:

 

All of them? 😮

 

They certainly mature somewhat but they are still very young in adult terms, only around 19-21 and there is plenty of rounding of rough edges tom be achieved and emotional maturity to be gained - Mat in particular, but Nynaeve also, and Perrin and Faile need to move beyond the obsessive teen romance phase.

 

Spot the middle aged commentator 😄

Maybe it’s just me, but a big reason why I love WOT is exactly because the characters are so unlikable and immature. It makes me relate more easily. I’m not perfect, on a journey of becoming more than I am today. When I read or watch characters who are supposed to be these perfect people with no human flaws, I check out a bit. 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

On 2/14/2023 at 9:40 AM, Sir_Charrid said:

Oh I know there is a reason I go back and re read even though some of the writing really really grates at times. I will say the more I read it, and the more time goes by, the more it slips down my must read list for other people. The writing style hasn't aged well as I have aged and those little things I used to call quirks grate slightly more with each re read. I am fully accepting I may reach the point where I may just put the series aside and decide to never reread it again. 

I get that 

[Stedding Tofu]

20 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

One, I think you're missing a key point, because Nynaeve admits the system is flawed and defers to a Sister so weak she barely made the Shawl.  There's a difference between using what you have and thinking it's the right way to leave things.

 

I have to admit I remember her bossing all the sisters around in Caemlyn and I don't remember her  deferring to any weaker sisters.  I also remember how Egwene had to trick her into acknowledging that she owed obedience to Egwene as The Amyrlin Seat and that acceptance was given grudgingly. 

 

Nynaeve thinks the system is flawed because she doesn't want to defer to anyone (Ajah Heads, Sitters, The Amyrlin Seat) and always thinks she is right.  And she hates disagreement or opposition.  We see that very clearly when she used her authority as Wisdom at Emond's Field to bully or beat people who disagreed with her over the head with her club.

 

You' free to spend as much imaginary time with her as you want but I'll pass 😄

 

20 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

But beyond all that, what, exactly, is the issue with someone giving orders and expecting to be obeyed?  If the orders are bad, question, but realistically, these are intelligent, highly trained and competent people.

 

As long as you recognise that Nynaeve expects to be the one giving the orders and can't handle it when she isn't.  The chapters after leaving Ebou Dar when Alise Tenjile organises The Kin / red belts from The Farm, usurping what Nynaeve sees as her rightful role and leaving her flummoxed, are hilarious.  And her interactions with Cadsuane are telling as, despite her superior strength in the power, she realises she has come up against a similar character who won't bend to anyone else.

 

20 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Except he doesn't actively go purchase a damane, he captures an enemy channeler in the middle the last battle.  We have no idea how he'll react to this or what steps he'll take next and we KNOW the idea is on his mind because he encourages the Sul'Dam that were with him to learn to channel and help him convince Tuon to change things.    

 

He knocks her out in battle rather than killing her, sure (part of RJ's Two Rivers gallantry where killing a woman is unthinkable however many of your men she torches).  But my criticism is that he doesn't think anything of what it means to become a slave owner or how any of his friends, family and associates would react to this.  As a reader we know what Egwene experienced in TGH and how the Aes Sedai were broken in Ebou Dar, losing their personalities if they weren't rescued in time, something Mat himself knows.

 

Is it on his mind?  I don't remember him having anything to do with the captive sul'dam or the Aes Sedai unless he had to.  Any more than he has anything to do with his captive damane or thinks about her as a person.  Learning how to keep away from Aes Sedai was of course why he stepped through the ter'angreal in Tear and, Mat being Mat, and RJ being RJ, is why he ends up married to a sul'dam and owning a damane. 

 

The Aes Sedai with Mat intend to teach the sul'dam how to channel only because one of the sul'dam manages to grasp the source and does something that hurts everyone nearby so, like with any other untrained woman, they plan to teach her enough not to hurt herself or others around them.  The plan to train sul'dam and use them against the Seanchan is Egwene's with the captive sul'dam and damane that Rand sent her after his campaign agaisnt the Seanchan in TPoD and this plot line fritters out.  Mat does not encourage this and would have no influence with the Aes Sedai to interfere in this way  in any case.

 

20 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Two aspects.  One, love is funny and you can't always control who you love.  Two, there is a very strong argument to make about changing things from the inside.  We know attacking the Seanchan from the outside is bloody, dangerous and might fail.  But Mat slowly influencing Tuon, applying his own political leverage and ability to start moving the needle?  These are things that come with maturity.  It's easy to stand and say "Be defiant no matter what."  It's a harder thing in reality and practice.  A young person would dash themselves on the rocks of the Seanchan empire trying to force the issue.  A smarter person realizes if they're in control they can effect change.

 

Well of course you don't choose who you love but a marriage needs a stable foundation and common interests not just affection.  A normal marriage at any rate.  A political marriage on the other hands needs a purpose and there is none here.  It's why Tuon jokes with Mat that as she is pregnant she doesn't need him any more.  It's all RJ's humour with Mat getting out of the frying pan only to head straight into the fire but Mat doesn't love Tuon at first, he just rather dementedly decides that as she is The Daughter of The Nine Moons he has to marry her because the snakes said so and so courts her without thinking of any of the implications.  This isn't big picture strategic stuff, it's purely what this means for him 🤨.

 

But if you think Mat has some plan to work on Tuon and reform the Seanchan from the inside then I admire your optimism but think it's wishful thinking.  He became Prince of Ravens same way he became General of The Band of The Red Hand - entirely accidentally when he was looking for a way out.

 

I'll throw a bone in and say that, although Rand confirmed that he is no longer ta'veren and suspected that Mat and Perrin were not either, The Pattern still has a role for Mat and will make him ta'veren to continue blundering his way across Randland and Seanchan, inadvertently changing the fate of The Seanchan Empire in the process.  Maybe this was the follow-up RJ had in mind in which case it might have been a pretty funny read.

 

I like Mat, but he's not a deep thinker.

 

20 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

It's not an immature young person thing, it's a vulnerability and humans are flawed thing.

 

I can agree with that and it's why hostage situations are dealt with by people who are not emotionally involved.  But Perrin and Faile's relationship still reads like pulling teeth.

 

20 hours ago, Samt said:

I actually didn't have a problem with Perrin chopping the hand off.  It showed his intelligence at understanding their culture.  They didn't mind the pain.  It was the prospect of being sent back as beggars that got to them.  He's horrified at what he has done, but also accepts that he will do what he has to do. 

 

Genuinely didn't expect to hear that.  Torture is not something we tolerate today and even in fantasy / fiction it's not something typically ascribed to the good guys.  It's him on the edge of losing it and embracing the end justifies the means.  Once you abandon any barriers or moral constraints things get real ugly real fast.  The Aiel are shocked by what he does.

 

This is Perrin at his worst.

[KakitaOCU]

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

I have to admit I remember her bossing all the sisters around in Caemlyn and I don't remember her  deferring to any weaker sisters.  I also remember how Egwene had to trick her into acknowledging that she owed obedience to Egwene as The Amyrlin Seat and that acceptance was given grudgingly. 

Again, her experience and path have put her in a position where she should NOT be deferring to these people.  But she makes it quite clear she thinks a power based hierarchy is dumb in her conversations with Daigian.  Using what is there to accomplish things is not the same as approving of it or accepting it.  

I think using Gas is stupid and harmful to the environment, but until I can afford an electric I still go to work, buy groceries.  I kind of don't have a choice but to use what's there until I can do better.  I'm just talking about my need to continue to live and support my family, Nynaeve's stakes are the world's continued existence here.

 

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

As long as you recognise that Nynaeve expects to be the one giving the orders and can't handle it when she isn't.  The chapters after leaving Ebou Dar when Alise Tenjile organises The Kin / red belts from The Farm, usurping what Nynaeve sees as her rightful role and leaving her flummoxed, are hilarious.  And her interactions with Cadsuane are telling as, despite her superior strength in the power, she realises she has come up against a similar character who won't bend to anyone else.

And from these experiences she learns and gets better.  No one said she's never problematic, only that it's a character arc she evolves from.   You mentioned Book 1 Nynaeve at one point.  I'd despise Book 1 Nynaeve, but would love and respect Book 6+ Nynaeve.

 

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

But my criticism is that he doesn't think anything of what it means to become a slave owner or how any of his friends, family and associates would react to this. 

He is, in the middle, of the Last Battle.   He doesn't have the time or luxury to stop and consider the moral and ethical problems this rises, he has a moment to be horrified by the idea then it's back to dealing with the giant army of nightmare monsters trying to murder everyone.  We don't have the book go on long enough after to see if he does or doesn't put thought into this.  But we DO have how he acts overall, which is to save Aes Sdai from damane colllars and then encourage Sul'Dam to LEARN to channel to help him fix the empire.
 

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

Is it on his mind?  I don't remember him having anything to do with the captive sul'dam or the Aes Sedai unless he had to.  Any more than he has anything to do with his captive damane or thinks about her as a person.  Learning how to keep away from Aes Sedai was of course why he stepped through the ter'angreal in Tear and, Mat being Mat, and RJ being RJ, is why he ends up married to a sul'dam and owning a damane. 

 

Yes, it is clearly on his mind.  When he sees the fear in Jolene's eyes over the presence of a Seanchan accent.  When he frees Teslyn, when he puts his neck on the line far beyond his own needs to get those three sisters out of Ebou Dar.  When he regrets killing Renna.  When he tells Seta and Bethamin to learn to channel and help him save the empire from itself.  

He constantly shows how much he hates this and wants it different.  You're holding him accountable because he doesn't immediately think about this during a life and death struggle for all of creation.  
 

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

The Aes Sedai with Mat intend to teach the sul'dam how to channel only because one of the sul'dam manages to grasp the source and does something that hurts everyone nearby so, like with any other untrained woman, they plan to teach her enough not to hurt herself or others around them. 

I understand that my random habit of just remembering everything is weird, but maybe double check what people say if you think it sounds off.  Yes, the sisters agree because of that reason, to start.  Teslyn is already changing her way of thinking by the time she parts with Mat and Mat SPECIFICALLY says to Seta and Bethamin  to learn as much as they can so they can to help him sway Tuon and stop the Damane process.  He wants things to change.

 

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

But if you think Mat has some plan to work on Tuon and reform the Seanchan from the inside then I admire your optimism but think it's wishful thinking. 

Again, he explicitly shares this to Seta and Bethamin.  Beyond that, if you HONESTLY think he doesn't see the issue with his wife wanting to collar his sister you're woefully misunderstanding Mat as a character from the get go.  
 

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

But Perrin and Faile's relationship still reads like pulling teeth.

 

I thought so too when I read it as a 15-20 year old "boy" trying to fit exactly how a man was supposed to be.  Reading it as a 30 something woman and rereading it now at 40+?...  Not so much, it just reads as a combination of youthful stupidity and grave misunderstandings of what the requirements should be for masculinity and femininity. 

[KakitaOCU]

9 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Maybe it’s just me, but a big reason why I love WOT is exactly because the characters are so unlikable and immature. It makes me relate more easily. I’m not perfect, on a journey of becoming more than I am today. When I read or watch characters who are supposed to be these perfect people with no human flaws, I check out a bit.

One of my favorite protagonists is Rahl from Natural Ordermage and Mage Guard of Hamor (by L.E. Modesitt Jr.).

By the end he is one of the most polite, competent, solid, GOOD people I've encountered in Modesitt's writing.  At the beginning he is a self entitled whiner complaining incessantly about how unfair everything is based not on if it's actually wrong or not but on how it interferes with his life specifically.  His organic and slow transformation from having a chip on his shoulder and blaming everyone else for how unfair things are to taking quiet responsibility and being a rock others can depend on is incredibly lovely.

[Scarloc99]

22 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Two aspects.  One, love is funny and you can't always control who you love.  Two, there is a very strong argument to make about changing things from the inside.  We know attacking the Seanchan from the outside is bloody, dangerous and might fail.  But Mat slowly influencing Tuon, applying his own political leverage and ability to start moving the needle?  These are things that come with maturity.  It's easy to stand and say "Be defiant no matter what."  It's a harder thing in reality and practice.  A young person would dash themselves on the rocks of the Seanchan empire trying to force the issue.  A smarter person realizes if they're in control they can effect change.

I will also add, Mat primarily married her so as not to die and ensure the last battle was won as per the prophecy he was told by the Finn. All other considerations where out of the window and he didn't really have the benefit of a measured choice of the pro's and cons. 

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

Well of course you don't choose who you love but a marriage needs a stable foundation and common interests not just affection.  A normal marriage at any rate.  A political marriage on the other hands needs a purpose and there is none here.  It's why Tuon jokes with Mat that as she is pregnant she doesn't need him any more.  It's all RJ's humour with Mat getting out of the frying pan only to head straight into the fire but Mat doesn't love Tuon at first, he just rather dementedly decides that as she is The Daughter of The Nine Moons he has to marry her because the snakes said so and so courts her without thinking of any of the implications.  This isn't big picture strategic stuff, it's purely what this means for him 🤨.

He is told by the Finn if he does not follow Prophecy then he will die and, by extension, the last battle will, to some extent, be lost, you can't get more big picture then that. 

He is also drawn by the pattern, he has no real free will over these actions, he falls into marriage by chance and accident and then makes the decision that as Tuons husband he can command an army that is very much needed for the last battle. At that moment in time the only thing that matters is the last battle. Not the sensitivities of Aes Sedai or Damme. We have no idea what happens post last battle with respects to the Damme or Mats, or even Tuons plans longer term. Other then the Visions of the future that seem to suggest in 2-300 years Collaring is still very much a thing. 

[KakitaOCU]

6 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

We have no idea what happens post last battle with respects to the Damme or Mats, or even Tuons plans longer term.

Kind of reminds me of siding with the Institute in Fallout 4.  There are two ways you can play it.  You can lean into the "Synths are just machines" approach and change nothing.  Or you can lean into the "Synths are thinking sentient beings" and start to enact changes.  You don't SEE these changes by the end of the game itself, but you can very clearly be aiming it that way.

[Scarloc99]

2 hours ago, Stedding Tofu said:

Genuinely didn't expect to hear that.  Torture is not something we tolerate today and even in fantasy / fiction it's not something typically ascribed to the good guys.  It's him on the edge of losing it and embracing the end justifies the means.  Once you abandon any barriers or moral constraints things get real ugly real fast.  The Aiel are shocked by what he does.

 

This is Perrin at his worst.

Is it really? The only way he was going to get the information he needed, to not only rescue Faile but also deal with the Shado required him to take a hand. Thankfully a lot of Modern fantasy has realised that the idea of good guys only do good and bad guys only do bad has faded away. Good people can do bad things in the right circumstance and, the morals of the WOT are different to ours. One of the great things about fiction is that it gives the writer a chance to explore worlds with a different moral setting. Some of the actions of Morraine with the Black Ajah could be considered Torture, leaving them unable to speak or hear while held in a stress position the whole time they are not being questioned. 

However Faile and Perrin is still a badly written relationship, I think the way RJ writes men and women generally puts a question mark on how he himself saw relationships and love. Even the mature relationships are largely shaped by a lack of understanding by men and women of how the other thinks. At some point someone is going to write "Men are from mars Women from Venus" in the 4th age and will make a killing.  And then someone else will discredit it all and the age of that kind of book will begin 🙂. 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Sir_Charrid

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

14 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

One of my favorite protagonists is Rahl from Natural Ordermage and Mage Guard of Hamor (by L.E. Modesitt Jr.).

By the end he is one of the most polite, competent, solid, GOOD people I've encountered in Modesitt's writing.  At the beginning he is a self entitled whiner complaining incessantly about how unfair everything is based not on if it's actually wrong or not but on how it interferes with his life specifically.  His organic and slow transformation from having a chip on his shoulder and blaming everyone else for how unfair things are to taking quiet responsibility and being a rock others can depend on is incredibly lovely.

I’ve never read that but I definitely will based on your description. I tend to respond to characters who represent an organic human experience, or at least what I perceive as an authentic opportunity to be a witness on a journey with characters in real time that is neutral and honest. Not about the value judgments of right or wrong or good or bad but just a human having an experience and everything that entails. Thank you for your insights. 

[Stedding Tofu]

21 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Again, her experience and path have put her in a position where she should NOT be deferring to these people. 

 

But this is the rub: Nynaeve does not think she should defer to anybody and specifically avoids Egwene once she is Amyrlin for this reason.

 

You're also mistaking my point about Nynaeve that it is her manner and attitude that I find unappealing.  No one ever said Cadsuane was not capable, smart or right about a lot of things but I absolutely do not find her likeable either.  If you do that's fine but we won't agree.

 

21 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

 I'm just talking about my need to continue to live and support my family, Nynaeve's stakes are the world's continued existence here.

 

In Caemlyn?  It's just her nature to be short and sharp with people.  I don't find it appealing as I'm more laid back.  Nynaeve in the office would be a nightmare as she would always expect to get her own way and think she knew better than anyone else - who would of course be a fool for disagreeing with her.

 

As I've said I'm generally well-disposed towards her because of her loyalty, courage and compassion but she is NOT an easy person to be around.

 

21 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

And from these experiences she learns and gets better.  No one said she's never problematic, only that it's a character arc she evolves from.   You mentioned Book 1 Nynaeve at one point.  I'd despise Book 1 Nynaeve, but would love and respect Book 6+ Nynaeve.

 

To an extent.  Cadsuane and Alise don't enter the story until books 7 and 8 and Nynaeve's interactions with them are not early series.

 

I think you're being protective as I'm criticising her flaws.  It's important to recognise she has them, rather than denying them.  You can still like her despite them.  I don't dislike her, I just find her personality makes for a bumpy ride.

 

21 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

He is, in the middle, of the Last Battle.   He doesn't have the time or luxury to stop and consider the moral and ethical problems this rises

 

But that's Mat ALWAYS - put off thinking about the consequences of his actions.  I don't think any of Rand, Nynaeve, Egwene or his sister would give him a pass for being preoccupied.

 

21 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

But we DO have how he acts overall, which is to save Aes Sdai from damane colllars and then encourage Sul'Dam to LEARN to channel to help him fix the empire.
 

Yes, it is clearly on his mind.  When he sees the fear in Jolene's eyes over the presence of a Seanchan accent.  When he frees Teslyn, when he puts his neck on the line far beyond his own needs to get those three sisters out of Ebou Dar.  When he regrets killing Renna.  When he tells Seta and Bethamin to learn to channel and help him save the empire from itself.  

I understand that my random habit of just remembering everything is weird, but maybe double check what people say if you think it sounds off.  Yes, the sisters agree because of that reason, to start.  Teslyn is already changing her way of thinking by the time she parts with Mat and Mat SPECIFICALLY says to Seta and Bethamin  to learn as much as they can so they can to help him sway Tuon and stop the Damane process.  He wants things to change.

Again, he explicitly shares this to Seta and Bethamin.

 

First, the fact that he understands the trauma of being damane and how that petrifies the Aes Sedai he freed should make him all the more thoughtful about the Sharan woman he captures, instead of basically thinking that as she's happy to be treated like a dog there's no problem.

 

Second, I genuinely don't remember any encouragement by Mat to the sul'dam to learn to channel to reform the Empire from within.  Maybe it's there and I glossed over it but I reread the series last year and that's not something I remember. 

 

And if you think Tuon is a lady for turning I have to disagree.  Axe meet head seems far more likely for Mat than liberating Seanchan's damane.

 

21 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

  Beyond that, if you HONESTLY think he doesn't see the issue with his wife wanting to collar his sister you're woefully misunderstanding Mat as a character from the get go.  

 

I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt so I'll say I don't really know what you are saying here and why you used a capitalised honestly for emphasis but I've never said he doesn't have an issue with Tuon collaring people left, right and centre - only that by capturing and using a damane himself he isn't thinking about how his friends and family will react and interpret his actions. A shrug, a rueful grin and an excuse that he had a lot on his plate won't wash here.

 

And I don't think I misunderstand his character at all, thank you for sharing your opinion to that effect.

 

21 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

I thought so too when I read it as a 15-20 year old "boy" trying to fit exactly how a man was supposed to be.  Reading it as a 30 something woman and rereading it now at 40+?...  Not so much, it just reads as a combination of youthful stupidity and grave misunderstandings of what the requirements should be for masculinity and femininity. 

 

Well, we all have our own perspective regardless of age and circumstance.  If you can evaluate your own changing perspective and gain differing insights into the characters and their behaviour that's all to the good. 

 

I still don't warm to Faile and find (as Elayas did) quiet, introspective Perrin marrying a hot-tempered, jealous character to be hideously ill-suited and their relationship to be hard going.  Not saying this isn't realistic - it happens - but I don't enjoy reading it.

 

[Stedding Tofu]

21 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I will also add, Mat primarily married her so as not to die and ensure the last battle was won as per the prophecy he was told by the Finn. All other considerations where out of the window and he didn't really have the benefit of a measured choice of the pro's and cons. 

 

In all the Mat chapters after he meets Tuon and while he is courting her he never once thinks he has to do this to save the world.  The first Finn prophecy is "to marry the daughter of the nine moons" and he acts like his feet are set on this path without thinking of any of the consequences - as in when he earns the title Prince of Ravens he reacts with surprise as he realises he is now a Lord despite spending the entire series saying "I'm no bloody Lord". 

 

Technically he doesn't marry Tuon in any case, he blurts out some words in shock and then months later she marries him.  His courtship is not about him desperately hoping she'll accept so they can save the world together, just more stuff happens to Mat and he is in a fine pickle and has to ride with it.

 

He does think that, at least loosely, about rescuing Moiraine but that is connected to the third Finn prophecy "to give up the half the light of the world to save the world".  Does he know that Rand will fail without Moiraine?  I don't recall if her letter says so, only that only he with Thom and one other can rescue her and he understands that it is the right thing to do.

 

I like Mat but he is an accidental hero, who gives us a lot of comedy despite, in fact because of, his troubles.  Like all the Two Rivers folk he comes good and does his duty in the grand scheme of things but he's not a deep thinker (prosthetic battle tactics aside).

 

21 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Is it really? The only way he was going to get the information he needed, to not only rescue Faile but also deal with the Shado required him to take a hand. Thankfully a lot of Modern fantasy has realised that the idea of good guys only do good and bad guys only do bad has faded away. Good people can do bad things in the right circumstance and, the morals of the WOT are different to ours. One of the great things about fiction is that it gives the writer a chance to explore worlds with a different moral setting. Some of the actions of Morraine with the Black Ajah could be considered Torture, leaving them unable to speak or hear while held in a stress position the whole time they are not being questioned.

 

Yes.  When is he "worse" that this?

 

The end justifies the means is as old an argument as humanity.  There are lines that should not be crossed.  Perrin turning into a butcher to rescue Faile from captivity is not a plot line I would welcome or an argument I would support.  RJ played on it and then had Perrin back away from it.

 

I don't think he got any useful information from the captured Aiel?  Sulin and her scouts tracked them down.  I really don't think RJ's message here was that Perrin was right to do this.

 

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

 

In all the Mat chapters after he meets Tuon and while he is courting her he never once thinks he has to do this to save the world.  The first Finn prophecy is "to marry the daughter of the nine moons" and he acts like his feet are set on this path without thinking of any of the consequences - as in when he earns the title Prince of Ravens he reacts with surprise as he realises he is now a Lord despite spending the entire series saying "I'm no bloody Lord". 

 

Technically he doesn't marry Tuon in any case, he blurts out some words in shock and then months later she marries him.  His courtship is not about him desperately hoping she'll accept so they can save the world together, just more stuff happens to Mat and he is in a fine pickle and has to ride with it.

 

He does think that, at least loosely, about rescuing Moiraine but that is connected to the third Finn prophecy "to give up the half the light of the world to save the world".  Does he know that Rand will fail without Moiraine?  I don't recall if her letter says so, only that only he with Thom and one other can rescue her and he understands that it is the right thing to do.

 

I like Mat but he is an accidental hero, who gives us a lot of comedy despite, in fact because of, his troubles.  Like all the Two Rivers folk he comes good and does his duty in the grand scheme of things but he's not a deep thinker (prosthetic battle tactics aside).

 

 

Yes.  When is he "worse" that this?

 

The end justifies the means is as old an argument as humanity.  There are lines that should not be crossed.  Perrin turning into a butcher to rescue Faile from captivity is not a plot line I would welcome or an argument I would support.  RJ played on it and then had Perrin back away from it.

 

I don't think he got any useful information from the captured Aiel?  Sulin and her scouts tracked them down.  I really don't think RJ's message here was that Perrin was right to do this.

 

If you go back and re read the section where he is with the Finn he asks them what happens if he doesn’t follow the prophecy, and he is told that the pattern will kill him. He also connects really early on in the books to the idea that he is in some way tied to Rand and the last battle and accepts he needs to be there as the holder of the horn. 
 

It is not much to make that link that, even if he doesn’t say it, he understands if he does not marry the daughter of the nine moons he dies and therefore he won’t be there to play his part in the last battle with the horn. You can make any argument as to why he should not have married her, but if he doesn’t marry her he dies and the last battle is lost. That is stated in book 3 I think, maybe 4 by the Finn so RJ defines that rule

very early on. 

[KakitaOCU]

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

But this is the rub: Nynaeve does not think she should defer to anybody and specifically avoids Egwene once she is Amyrlin for this reason.

She avoids Egwene because she knows she should defer but it is both awkward and a hard habit to break of being in charge.  Also, she gets over it, she has no issues in the last few books at all with Egwene's authority.
 

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

To an extent.  Cadsuane and Alise don't enter the story until books 7 and 8 and Nynaeve's interactions with them are not early series.

She rubs wrong with Cadsuane for the same reasons you just got done saying you didn't like Cadsuane...  Not sure of the issue here.   Alise she doesn't actually have problems with, she gets frustrated with her but you'll notice she never takes it out on her, never takes her to task, never tries to force her superiority with Alise.  She's confused by her but then takes it in stride after the flight from Ebou Dar.  Nothing in the book shows he fighting Alise.
 

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

But that's Mat ALWAYS - put off thinking about the consequences of his actions.  I don't think any of Rand, Nynaeve, Egwene or his sister would give him a pass for being preoccupied.

Except they do, repeatedly.  And again, he didn't actively take a damane.  He ended their threat in combat and OTHERS did it on his behalf.  Which he is horrified by, but then, oh yeah, Trollocs everywhere, gotta focus.   Again, there are specific points to show he's not okay with or going to allow Damane to continue.
 

 

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

Second, I genuinely don't remember any encouragement by Mat to the sul'dam to learn to channel to reform the Empire from within.  Maybe it's there and I glossed over it but I reread the series last year and that's not something I remember. 

He specifically says it to Seta and Bethamin when they leave his company with the Aes Sedai.

 

 

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

And if you think Tuon is a lady for turning I have to disagree.  Axe meet head seems far more likely for Mat than liberating Seanchan's damane.

I hate to say this, but I'm picking up on a pattern about how you view most of the women in authority here.  Again, we can already see her softening with Mat and just because early Tuon would act a certain way doesn't mean she will down the road as Mat works.

 

 

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

And I don't think I misunderstand his character at all, thank you for sharing your opinion to that effect.

You're literally saying his lack of immediate action regarding an enemy combatant in the middle of the last battle somehow says he doesn't have enough concern for the whole issue.  That is woefully misunderstanding of him and the situation.

 

[Scarloc99]

18 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

She avoids Egwene because she knows she should defer but it is both awkward and a hard habit to break of being in charge.  Also, she gets over it, she has no issues in the last few books at all with Egwene's authority.
 

She rubs wrong with Cadsuane for the same reasons you just got done saying you didn't like Cadsuane...  Not sure of the issue here.   Alise she doesn't actually have problems with, she gets frustrated with her but you'll notice she never takes it out on her, never takes her to task, never tries to force her superiority with Alise.  She's confused by her but then takes it in stride after the flight from Ebou Dar.  Nothing in the book shows he fighting Alise.
 

Except they do, repeatedly.  And again, he didn't actively take a damane.  He ended their threat in combat and OTHERS did it on his behalf.  Which he is horrified by, but then, oh yeah, Trollocs everywhere, gotta focus.   Again, there are specific points to show he's not okay with or going to allow Damane to continue.
 

 

He specifically says it to Seta and Bethamin when they leave his company with the Aes Sedai.

 

 

I hate to say this, but I'm picking up on a pattern about how you view most of the women in authority here.  Again, we can already see her softening with Mat and just because early Tuon would act a certain way doesn't mean she will down the road as Mat works.

 

 

You're literally saying his lack of immediate action regarding an enemy combatant in the middle of the last battle somehow says he doesn't have enough concern for the whole issue.  That is woefully misunderstanding of him and the situation.

 

Have to agree with these points and just to reiterate anything that happens in the last 2 books, especially the last book, any choices that are made are done so based on the immediate situation right now and not any consideration for the future.
 

Mat is in the middle of overseeing the biggest battle in the history of the 3rd age,

 

Tuon needs to ensure her nation stays in one piece while they fight the biggest battle of the 3rd age. This is not the time to make dramatic changes of policy, The voices in mats head would tell him the life of 1 aes sedai in that moment is not worth risking the greater war on. 

 

This is one of those moments in fiction where every faction and character is thinking of just one thing, how to survive right now. At the battle for winterfell Daenerys didn’t worry about the politics of what came next, she was slightly more concerned with 200,000 zombies trying to destroy the world. It was after that battle that the political machinations, new alliances and concerns for what new revelations would mean for people’s power came to the forth. We have never seen what that looks like in the WOT books. The reader can not make assumptions for what comes next based on actions, or inaction,  in the heat of battle. 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

On 1/11/2023 at 2:27 PM, Sir_Charrid said:

I mean my issue isn’t railroads, I have read some books I love that stick on one path, the hobbit and LOTR as 2 examples,  I just feel in book 1 especially and then in parts of 2 and 3 RJ is finding his voice still. Book 1 especially is from a very limited POV, I think RJ realised towards the end he needed to open that up. 
 

I am not saying the books are awful, far from it just that across the whole series they are the weaker of them all, especially with the sheer repetition of story thread throughout all 3. 

I agree. I’m noticing now while rereading the series for the first time since completing it a while back that RJ really seems to me that he evolves as a writer as the books progress and it feels like the story grows in the telling the more he immersed himself in the writing. 

[Stedding Tofu]

On 2/18/2023 at 3:32 PM, Sir_Charrid said:

If you go back and re read the section where he is with the Finn he asks them what happens if he doesn’t follow the prophecy, and he is told that the pattern will kill him. He also connects really early on in the books to the idea that he is in some way tied to Rand and the last battle and accepts he needs to be there as the holder of the horn. 
 

It is not much to make that link that, even if he doesn’t say it, he understands if he does not marry the daughter of the nine moons he dies and therefore he won’t be there to play his part in the last battle with the horn. You can make any argument as to why he should not have married her, but if he doesn’t marry her he dies and the last battle is lost. That is stated in book 3 I think, maybe 4 by the Finn so RJ defines that rule

very early on. 

 

In Tear (TSR) he asks the Finns for answers.  They tell him to go to Rhuidean so he goes with Rand and afterwards he sticks with him as it's the best way of escaping The Aiel Waste.  He attempts to escape before the battle of Cairhien (TFoH) but The Pattern pulls him back and even after he kills Couladin he needs to be dragooned by Rand into going to Caemlyn (Egwene helps corner him).  Ironically, he's right to worry as he dies in Caemlyn but of course this is okay and in line with prophecy but even so...

 

Stuff happens to Mat, in fact it catches up with him despite him trying to avoid it and I don't think he has everything as neatly tied up at a strategic level as you say (marrying a sul'dam and owning an "Aes Sedai" is pretty much the opposite of what he would choose for himself).

 

Whether you want to see Mat as a deep thinker with a clear strategy or a more reactive character who stumbles out of the frying pan into the fire is up to you and is a matter of opinion.

[Stedding Tofu]

On 2/19/2023 at 10:19 AM, Sir_Charrid said:

Have to agree with these points and just to reiterate anything that happens in the last 2 books, especially the last book, any choices that are made are done so based on the immediate situation right now and not any consideration for the future.
 

Mat is in the middle of overseeing the biggest battle in the history of the 3rd age,

 

Tuon needs to ensure her nation stays in one piece while they fight the biggest battle of the 3rd age. This is not the time to make dramatic changes of policy, The voices in mats head would tell him the life of 1 aes sedai in that moment is not worth risking the greater war on. 

 

This is valid to a point but it feels like you are saying the end justifies the means and that's a dangerous approach to take.  If one Sharan can be collared and made damane to fight The Shadow so can hundreds.  And so can hundreds of Shaido as Perrin does indeed sacrifice in order to free Faile.  Except those damane can now be pointed at anyone.  And even if they are not, they will still be treated as animals and have their personalities broken and be reshaped as obedient and merciless weapons.

 

My criticism is Mat does not wrestle with this or even think about it more.  A few lines of troubled conscience or imagining Bode's or Egwene's reaction are all that are needed to establish this moral dilemma, not a major plot arc.  Instead it's how useful and well-behaved she is.

[KakitaOCU]

39 minutes ago, Stedding Tofu said:

Whether you want to see Mat as a deep thinker with a clear strategy or a more reactive character who stumbles out of the frying pan into the fire is up to you and is a matter of opinion.

Except none of that really ties to the point we're debating.  You argued that because Mat didn't drop everything he was doing to actively fight an enemy combatant being collared in the middle of Tarmon Gaidin he doesn't sufficiently care.

By that logic why didn't Egwene immediately go to War with Fortuona  when they met on the battlefield?  Egwene knows exactly what the terror is of the collars and has already bloodied the Seanchan once.  Clearly her willingness to work with Fortuona shows she doesn't have a proper level of concern over the Damane issue.

Which sounds ridiculous to say, which is right up there with ignoring everything Mat does showing he does care about the issue to argue that one moment in the thick of battle says something about him.

 

  

26 minutes ago, Stedding Tofu said:

My criticism is Mat does not wrestle with this or even think about it more.  A few lines of troubled conscience or imagining Bode's or Egwene's reaction are all that are needed to establish this moral dilemma, not a major plot arc.  Instead it's how useful and well-behaved she is.

So an extra line right there would have made you happy while you ignore the multiple earlier lines in earlier books that much more clearly show his concern?  I'm confused.

So all the following meaning nothing:
-Freeing sisters from the A'dam
-Smuggling them out of Seanchan lands
-Taking the Sul'Dam who want to break the cycle to safety.
-Shielding them from the Seanchan when they catch up to Fortuona and making sure they come with him instead of going back collared like Fortuona would have wanted.
-Actively telling Seta and Bethamin to learn everthing they can about channeling and to help him make Tuon understand and change things.

But if he had had a momentary internal thought of "Wow, Bode will hate this."  It would have been all good for you?

To quote Batman of all things "It's not who you are on the inside, but what you do that defines you."  Mat internally is flippant, selfish, actively wants to avoid responsibility or danger.  Mat externally is a noble hero who rushes headlong into every problem and saves life after life while fighting for everyone else's freedom and safety.

Edited February 20, 2023 by KakitaOCU

[Stedding Tofu]

On 2/18/2023 at 3:36 PM, KakitaOCU said:

She rubs wrong with Cadsuane for the same reasons you just got done saying you didn't like Cadsuane... 

 

They are both domineering characters who expect obedience.  I really don't know why you object to me pointing this out so much, I didn't write them but they are on page the way they are.

 

On 2/18/2023 at 3:36 PM, KakitaOCU said:

Alise she doesn't actually have problems with, she gets frustrated with her but you'll notice she never takes it out on her, never takes her to task, never tries to force her superiority with Alise.  She's confused by her but then takes it in stride after the flight from Ebou Dar.  Nothing in the book shows he fighting Alise.

 

I never said she fought Alise.  I said she couldn't handle not being the one in charge and that the chapters after they left Ebou Dar when Alise usurped what she saw as her rightful role in organising the party, leaving her flummoxed, were hilarious.

 

You seem to take criticism of Nynaeve personally.  I've said I'm generally well-disposed towards her but that I find her overbearing and not an easy person to be around.  You're welcome to interpret her differently but we won't agree.

 

On 2/18/2023 at 3:36 PM, KakitaOCU said:

Except they do, repeatedly.  And again, he didn't actively take a damane.  He ended their threat in combat and OTHERS did it on his behalf.  Which he is horrified by, but then, oh yeah, Trollocs everywhere, gotta focus.   Again, there are specific points to show he's not okay with or going to allow Damane to continue.

 

Others did it?  So someone else enslaved someone on his behalf and he's an accidental slaveowner who nonetheless  decides to benefit from owning a slave because it's convenient?  Not a strong argument in a court of law I think you'll find.

 

Now that's a bold contention.  I don't really see how you think he's going to liberate Seanchan's damane and get Tuon on board with it but I'm all ears.

 

On 2/18/2023 at 3:36 PM, KakitaOCU said:

He specifically says it to Seta and Bethamin when they leave his company with the Aes Sedai.

 

Does he?  I remember he gave Jolien sweet buns laced with blue dye as a prank (I think BS was off in his characterisation but it is how he wrote Mat).

 

On 2/18/2023 at 3:36 PM, KakitaOCU said:

I hate to say this, but I'm picking up on a pattern about how you view most of the women in authority here.

 

It's almost as if I responded in a light-hearted way to a comment saying that all the characters had matured and become likeable by pointing out what I see as flaws or aspects of immaturity in Mat, Perrin, Faile and Nynaeve.  Characters I took issue with, in however small a way, rather than those I didn't.

 

I have very little time for people who handle differences of opinion and interpretation with ad hominem accusations and insinuations of sexism or any other kind of bias.  The characters are written as they are and we should be free to discuss their characters without this kind of foolishness.

 

On 2/18/2023 at 3:36 PM, KakitaOCU said:

Again, we can already see her softening with Mat and just because early Tuon would act a certain way doesn't mean she will down the road as Mat works.

 

So you think Tuon will melt in Mat's embrace and be all for the emancipation of the damane kept in "kennels" and walked twice a day, given treats for being obedient and performing tricks for the sul'dam and literally regarded as less than human?

 

I think that's extremely unlikely.

 

Note that's because the Seanchan powerbase is based on damane so it would cripple the empire not because of "a pattern in how I view women in authority" 🤔

 

On 2/18/2023 at 3:36 PM, KakitaOCU said:

You're literally saying his lack of immediate action regarding an enemy combatant in the middle of the last battle somehow says he doesn't have enough concern for the whole issue.  That is woefully misunderstanding of him and the situation.

 

It's really not but I can accept you see it differently.  It's shame you can't but I gather you like to lecture.

[Stedding Tofu]

18 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Except none of that really ties to the point we're debating.  You argued that because Mat didn't drop everything he was doing to actively fight an enemy combatant being collared in the middle of Tarmon Gaidin he doesn't sufficiently care.

By that logic why didn't Egwene immediately go to War with Fortuona  when they met on the battlefield?  Egwene knows exactly what the terror is of the collars and has already bloodied the Seanchan once.  Clearly her willingness to work with Fortuona shows she doesn't have a proper level of concern over the Damane issue.

Which sounds ridiculous to say, which is right up there with ignoring everything Mat does showing he does care about the issue to argue that one moment in the thick of battle says something about him.

 

  

So an extra line right there would have made you happy while you ignore the multiple earlier lines in earlier books that much more clearly show his concern?  I'm confused.

So all the following meaning nothing:
-Freeing sisters from the A'dam
-Smuggling them out of Seanchan lands
-Taking the Sul'Dam who want to break the cycle to safety.
-Shielding them from the Seanchan when they catch up to Fortuona and making sure they come with him instead of going back collared like Fortuona would have wanted.
-Actively telling Seta and Bethamin to learn everthing they can about channeling and to help him make Tuon understand and change things.

But if he had had a momentary internal thought of "Wow, Bode will hate this."  It would have been all good for you?

To quote Batman of all things "It's not who you are on the inside, but what you do that defines you."  Mat internally is flippant, selfish, actively wants to avoid responsibility or danger.  Mat externally is a noble hero who rushes headlong into every problem and saves life after life while fighting for everyone else's freedom and safety.

 

Just stop.  I have no interest in your overly charged responses.  I don't know why this bothers you so much and I really don't care either.

[KakitaOCU]

24 minutes ago, Stedding Tofu said:

They are both domineering characters who expect obedience.  I really don't know why you object to me pointing this out so much, I didn't write them but they are on page the way they are.

You quoted Nynaeve bristling under Cadsuane as a sign that Nynaeve couldn't handle submitting to authority.  But then you said Cadsuane would make you bristle too.  Are you suggesting you have the same character flaws you're attributing to Nynaeve?
 

24 minutes ago, Stedding Tofu said:

I said she couldn't handle not being the one in charge and that the chapters after they left Ebou Dar when Alise usurped what she saw as her rightful role in organising the party, leaving her flummoxed, were hilarious.

Except she handled it fine.  She had a handful of comments that she shared with Elayne and not in front of the Kinwomen so as not to undermine Alise and went on with her day.  
 

24 minutes ago, Stedding Tofu said:

Others did it?  So someone else enslaved someone on his behalf and he's an accidental slaveowner who nonetheless  decides to benefit from owning a slave because it's convenient?  Not a strong argument in a court of law I think you'll find.

Actually, a court of law is going to go off the laws, so Seanchan courts won't find a crime and he's a royal so he has diplomatic immunity anywhere else.  We're not arguing Legal justice, we're arguing morality, in which case you cannot judge him for something others do on their own volition.  Which you are not only doing but then claiming he should have immediately fought to free a woman trying to kill him and everyone else on the Light's side.
 

24 minutes ago, Stedding Tofu said:

Now that's a bold contention.  I don't really see how you think he's going to liberate Seanchan's damane and get Tuon on board with it but I'm all ears.

Offhandedly?  Bring back Seta and Bethamin in secret, give Tuon an ultimatum to take action to start ending it now or he goes public.  Maybe even Collaring Tuon to make the point.  But I'm not in the situation and I'm not Mat so I can't say exactly what his plans will be, only that he clearly has thoughts that direction and has taken actions already in the series.  (Pushing Sul'Dam to learn so they can help force the change).   Realistically it's going to be a bloody civil war.  Fortuona gets to decide if she's the North or the South so to speak.
 

24 minutes ago, Stedding Tofu said:

Does he?  I remember he gave Jolien sweet buns laced with blue dye as a prank (I think BS was off in his characterisation but it is how he wrote Mat).

Yes, he does.  Towers of Midnight Chapter 17 and I quote:
“Go with the Aes Sedai,” Mat said. “I’ll give you your own horses, so you don’t have to rely on them. Learn to channel. That’ll be more use than dying. Maybe someday you two can convince Tuon of the truth. Help me find a way to fix this without causing the Empire to collapse.”
 

24 minutes ago, Stedding Tofu said:

Note that's because the Seanchan powerbase is based on damane so it would cripple the empire not because of "a pattern in how I view women in authority"

Yeah, hence it will likely be a bloody civil war.  Kind of like in real life when a significant part of a country is only possible on the back of slave labor and enough people want change and force it.  It's possible for Tuon to be on the right side of history, or maybe it won't happen and she'll have to be overthrown, we don't know, but I'm not talking about how likely something is, or how successful a plan will be.  You're arguing that Mat doesn't care, I'm arguing he does.  There are real world issues I despise and want to see changed, I am unlikely to succeed by myself, that fact doesn't change my actual stance on the matter, only my power.

Mat does NOT like the idea of Damane, he actively protects women who can channel from it and wants to see it end.  That he cannot do so on his own immediately does not change that.

Edited February 20, 2023 by KakitaOCU

[Scarloc99]

13 hours ago, Stedding Tofu said:

 

This is valid to a point but it feels like you are saying the end justifies the means and that's a dangerous approach to take.  If one Sharan can be collared and made damane to fight The Shadow so can hundreds.  And so can hundreds of Shaido as Perrin does indeed sacrifice in order to free Faile.  Except those damane can now be pointed at anyone.  And even if they are not, they will still be treated as animals and have their personalities broken and be reshaped as obedient and merciless weapons.

 

My criticism is Mat does not wrestle with this or even think about it more.  A few lines of troubled conscience or imagining Bode's or Egwene's reaction are all that are needed to establish this moral dilemma, not a major plot arc.  Instead it's how useful and well-behaved she is.

In the middle of a battle yes, you cut off the arm to save the body. That is accepted military thinking, sometimes you have to sacrifice your own soldiers or even civilians in the battle in order to win the war. Mat is the greatest general of all time and would fully understand that, something that is shown by the many sacrifices he makes allowing many of his own soldiers to be killed in order to spring a trap to win the war. So yes he would sacrifice an enemy I mean his choices are collaring or death. He can’t afford to waste an aes sedai on blocking her. He needs them all to fight. It is a simple matter of logistics, an enemy aes sedai collared instantly is one less on the enemy side and, potentially a new weapon he can use to try and save the entire world. 
 

And no, in the middle of managing an entire war, the result of which will impact the entire world any great general would not spare a seconds thought for a single individual maybe in a bad situation. Especially an enemy, She is alive, that can be dealt with later, if mat gets distracted by it then there is no world left so it doesn’t matter if she is collared. 
 

I found the quote in f the scene where Mat asks the Finn what happens if he does not marry the daughter of the 9 moons, they tell him he will die. 
 

Should I go home to my people?"

"You must go to Rhuidean."

"Why should I?" "If you do not go to Rhuidean you will die."

"Why?"

"You will have sidestepped the thread of fate, left your fate to drift on the winds of time, and you will be killed by those who do not want that fate fulfilled."

When Mat demands to know his fate, the Aelfinn continue, "To marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons! To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was! To give up half the light of the world to save the world! Go to Rhuidean, son of battles! Go to Rhuidean, trickster! Go, gambler! Go!"

 

So the Finn tell him if he sidesteps his fate he will die. He then asks what his fate is and they tell him, they have just told him if he sidesteps it he dies. 
 

No more motivation is needed, if Tuon had been the most evil women in the world he would have married her because if he doesn’t he dies and therefore isn’t there to save the world. 
 

but let’s add to that, in the same chapter where Mat uses that sharan to open a gateway to view the battle he has made the Seanchan refer to the Aes Sedai as Aes Sedai not marath'damane, Tuon has not countermanded that, so already he is winning the battles he can win you make change slowly. Had he pushed too far too hard he would have risked it all and, once again, she is an enemy combatant. The memories in his head will enforce that thinking because it is the only way you can think in the middle of a battle and, Randland does not work to the same moral rules as our own when it comes to torture, treatment of prisoners and rules of engagement. There is no Geneva convention, you do what you must to survive and darkfriend prisoners are, I imagine, simply executed on the field of battle. 

Edited February 21, 2023 by Sir_Charrid

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

Yikes…this is getting uncomfortable 😬

[Stedding Tofu]

16 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

In the middle of a battle yes, you cut off the arm to save the body.

 

If you phrase it like that, then yes  🙂

 

But the Seanchan are not an unknown and how they treat channeleres is not an unknown.  The fact that they absorb every captive channeler into their army, break them and use them against their former friends and allies is well established.

 

I don't think it's unrealistic to expect to see Mat wrestle with this more.  I'm pretty sure he knocked her out and took her prisoner himself.

 

Do you give Perrin a pass for giving the Seanchan hundreds of Shaido Wise Ones because it helps secure his objective?  Apart from the human misery it will lead to it's a colossal strategic error and swing in the balance of power (already favouring the Seanchan).

 

16 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

"Why?"

"You will have sidestepped the thread of fate, left your fate to drift on the winds of time, and you will be killed by those who do not want that fate fulfilled."

When Mat demands to know his fate, the Aelfinn continue, "To marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons! To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was! To give up half the light of the world to save the world! Go to Rhuidean, son of battles! Go to Rhuidean, trickster! Go, gambler! Go!"

 

But this is just it.  He has to go to Rhuidean to avoid death.  Marrying the daughter of the Nine Moons is part of the thread of his fate but it is not established as a precondition for saving the world. 

 

If Mat truly believed it was he would be on the hunt for her from that moment on because if the world ends so does he.  Instead he warily starts asking women if the Daughter of The Nine Moons means anything to them before he gets involved with them as he does with Melindhra.  Mat being Mat he accidentally kidnaps Tuon in a typical out of the frying pan into the fire fashion as he finally escapes Tylin and the Seanchan only to find he's cornered himself.  As with all RJ's relationships he then falls in love with her in record time which makes it ok but it's classic "stuff happens to Mat" for comedy.

 

He thinks he has to marry Tuon because the Finns told him it was part of his fate not because he is hell bent on this as the only means of ensuring the world survives.  That bit comes when he joins Thom and Noal in rescuing Moiraine and is separate from his courtship of Tuon.