body swap

[Cadsuane]

Well, we could still call it games night, it just isn't board games anymore.  8)

[Luckers]

Well, I don't know... that thing you do with the chess pieces is a bit like a board game.

[elmis]

Sorry if this has been theorized on before, I'm at work so I had to skim through some of the posts.

 

I don't like the body-swap theory, but I agree that it seems the only thing possible at this point, however I'm thinking it might happen in another way, not that I have any real proof for my theory or anything. ;)

 

Go easy on me, painting this with broad strokes due to time constraints. :)

 

What I think, is that somewhere in aMoL, some time before the final battle, Rand and Moridin have a showdown, at which point the swap takes place. Alivia is there and helps Rand, now in Moridins body to kill Moridin who has Rands body (or a variation of that). (Help him die / live you must die / two men merging - one man living viewings)

 

Logain takes over as the Champion of the Light, as he's the "senior" Asha'man having booted Taim and his "hundred companions" out of the Black Tower. (Greatness/Glory viewing)

 

The girls all cry, thinking Rands is dead. (Funeral in a boat viewing)

 

Rand walks the lands as a beggar, either to get some time to regroup (the proverbial target being off his back), or because he's freaked out over having the body of one of the forsaken, or any number of other reasons. (Beggar viewing) 

 

Then he comes back, has a good time with Aviendla who gets pregnant (Odd babies viewing - they look like Moridin), and continues onward to the last battle where he probably ends up fighting SH. :)

 

As a side note:

When it comes to "his blood on the rocks" prophecy, I still think that will be the Aiel people.

[Saidar]

Could it be that like the soul of Lews Therin Telamon is caught in the body of Rand and it's one of the souls that need to die?

[Trib4l]

If they weren't the same soul, that would be fine. It so happens that Rand is the same soul as LTT, but their personalities are separate instances of the same soul's existence - hence the madness.

[Tyrell]

Hmmm while reading through this thread (I really don't know which side I'm on with regards to body swapping) that possibly the "something wrong" with Rand's eyes is the beginnings of saa comming along from his bond or w/e he has going on there with Morradin? Thinking about it I don't know what else has happened to him that could effect his eyes and that balefire (weave? How do you manipulate the TP?) that toutched his was made from the TP.

 

*I may be wrong

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yes, Tyrell, unfortunately you are incorrect, althought you're certainly not the only one to ever think that.

 

Rand does not have saa.  Rand has never channeled the True Power.  The "black flecks" he sees are the result of damage to his eyes from the exploding fireball that incinerated his hand, not something passed along through his link with Moridin.  Their description does not match that of saa, which move in a straight line across one eye, then the other.  Their description does match damage to the eyes, which diagnosis is confirmed when Nynaeve delved him immediately following the conflict.

 

She delved him right before the encounter, in Tear, and found nothing wrong with his eyes.  She delved him immediately after the encounter, and his eyes were damaged.  The "black flecks" are the result of the fight with Semirhage, not the link with Moridin.

[Luckers]

Indeed, Robert is correct. The symptoms don't match at all, and Rand's symptoms specifically match his own experience of the exploding fireball.

[Kura]

Hmm, though the black flecks aren't saa, it raises a question. If Rand and Moradin do bodyswap. then will the saa stay with Moradin's body, and if so, what are the negative effects, and what will they do to Rand? Or are they more of the soul and will transfer with Moradin, though I doubt it, since they are a physical manifestation.. they seem pretty bodily related.

[Davian93]

Hmm, though the black flecks are saa, it raises a question. If Rand and Moradin do bodyswap. then will the saa stay with Moradin's body, and if so, what are the negative effects, and what will they do to Rand? Or are they more of the soul and will transfer with Moradin, though I doubt it, since they are a physical manifestation.. they seem pretty bodily related.

 

As a physical side effect of channeling the TP, they will almost certainly stay with the body, if Rand and Moridin were to swap bodies or if Rand was tranmigrated into Moridins' body somehow.  Demandred comments that Ishy must have been channeling the TP extensively for the saa to show back up again in his eyes so quickly after his transmigration from his old body.  This would support that theory.

[Mr Ares]

Hmm, though the black flecks are saa, it raises a question. If Rand and Moradin do bodyswap. then will the saa stay with Moradin's body, and if so, what are the negative effects, and what will they do to Rand? Or are they more of the soul and will transfer with Moradin, though I doubt it, since they are a physical manifestation.. they seem pretty bodily related.

If they were part of the soul, then they surely would have transferred last time Ishydin changed bodies. As he lacks the flaming body cavities of Ishamael, they probably don't go with the soul, so Rand is likely to have to go cold turkey with no hope of satisfying an addiction - I hope the physical symptoms aren't too bad.

[DemandredFO]

I think the Saa are symptoms of the True Power.  I think the reason Moridin didn't come with Ishamael fire eyes is because they are a physical symptom and Moridin must work to gain them.  If Rand bodyswapped with Ishamael then Rand would have fire eyes but he's swapping with Moridin so I don't think he will have the Saa.  Or at least that's how I interpret it.  Hopefully I didn't overcomplicate it.

[Tyrell]

Moridin does have have Saa afaik, although not the fire eyes, apparrently he hasen't used the tp quite enough for those, he just has the "normal" saa.. the black flecks that drift accross the eyes.

 

*I may be wrong

 

[elmis]

I think the Saa are symptoms of the True Power.  I think the reason Moridin didn't come with Ishamael fire eyes is because they are a physical symptom and Moridin must work to gain them.  If Rand bodyswapped with Ishamael then Rand would have fire eyes but he's swapping with Moridin so I don't think he will have the Saa.  Or at least that's how I interpret it.  Hopefully I didn't overcomplicate it.

 

I agree with you DemandredFO, the Saa seems to be a physical symptom. I also believe that addiction to either power, One Source or True Source is a mental addiction, ie. linked with the consciousness, or soul of a person. I don't think we'll see a Rand going through any withdrawal symptoms. :)

 

On another note, this might be wrong, but don't you only have the Saa manifest when you're touching the True Power? If that's the case Rand won't have it at all. :D

[Cadsuane]

I think the Saa are symptoms of the True Power.  I think the reason Moridin didn't come with Ishamael fire eyes is because they are a physical symptom and Moridin must work to gain them.  If Rand bodyswapped with Ishamael then Rand would have fire eyes but he's swapping with Moridin so I don't think he will have the Saa.  Or at least that's how I interpret it.  Hopefully I didn't overcomplicate it.

 

The saa are a result of having channeled the True Power for a certain length of time. If I am not mistaken, the fire eyes are the result of having channeled the True Power for an even longer period of time - they are more extremely developed saa. Thus, if the fire eyes did not transfer to Moridin's new body when Ishy's soul did, then the fire eyes are not attached to the soul, but to the body. Taking that to the idea of Rand and Moridin changing bodies, the saa would stay with the body, meaning Rand in Moridin's body would indeed have saa. They may fade over time, since he does not channel the TP, but they may not.

[Luckers]

And if they don't... so what? A stream of black dots that in no way interfere with normal vision is not a horrible affliction. Especially to someone who is handless, partially blind and has lived with the agony of two never healing wounds.

 

He may well go through a detox though, since the effect seems cumulative with a direct correlation to use of the True Power--after all, there is no physical symptom that would caused tiny black dots to flow accross the eye therefore showing that the saa may well require the ongoing exposure of the True Power, as opposed to being the result of exposure to the true power... if you get the distinction.

[Andrew the Great]

I always thought that the saa only showed up when someone was actually drawing on the TP. But I guess that that's totally making something up and not important anyway.

I agree that the saa are physical symptoms, and that if the body swap occurs and the saa are present at  random times rather than when drawing on the P, Rand will have saa. I do not think, however, that Rand will have to "go through detox" as Luckers put it, simply because i see the TP as an addiction of the mind/soul, not of the body. Just my 2 cents.

[Guest leebarr]

I do not think a body swap wiil happen. I think Rand will die in thier meeting and Nyn will heal death [getting a even bigger head} wicth in turn will remove the wound in Rand's side and fixing his eyes and hand then march to Tg and lay havic on all bad guys.

[Luckers]

And your thoughts on how that fulfils the concurrancy issue of the 'he who is dead yet lives' prophecy? Rand must be dead and alive at the same time, and the only way i can see that is either in the bodyswap (the physical death of the body at Rand's hand) or possibly balefire, though that has the issue that balefire wipes out a timeline and replaces it whole, it is one, then the other.

 

 

 

 

[professorskar]

I think people with the saa have them even when they're not currently channeling the True Power.  I believe the speed and amount of black flecks in the eyes increases when they are currently channeling it.

 

If the body swap occurs, I think Rand will have the saa.  In fact, this might even be supported in the books, specifically Perrin's wolf dream in the Shadow Rising of seeing someone he thought was Rand, but wasn't sure (Rand in Moridin's body), who happened to have a bandage over his eyes at the time.  Maybe Rand will wear the bandage to hide the saa.

[Luckers]

Yeah, thats possible, though personally i think thats refering to Moridin in Rands body shielding Rand's damaged eyes from the light. I think it ties in to all of that about Rand living as a beggar, only its my belief that it is Moridin that is the beggar, hiding out after Tarmon Gai'don and that that is how Rand and Alivia will find him when they come to kill him--but both are more then possible. We simply dont know enough yet.

[stoper]

Yeah, thats possible, though personally i think thats refering to Moridin in Rands body shielding Rand's damaged eyes from the light. I think it ties in to all of that about Rand living as a beggar, only its my belief that it is Moridin that is the beggar, hiding out after Tarmon Gai'don and that that is how Rand and Alivia will find him when they come to kill him--but both are more then possible. We simply dont know enough yet.

But we have this viewing: "three woman standing over a funeral bier with him on it." and the other moment with three woman on the boat "and he who is dead yet lives".

That means if Rand and Alivia kill Moridin somewere after TGD, the three girls must find his body (Rand's body) to mourn him. Am I right?

And also Rand must make contact with Alivia after this body-swap (and she must believe him, so she may agree to help him kill his old body), but not with the girls. And that sounds strangely to me.

[Shard]

The reason I believe it is a fake death and not a body swap (Why would Rand want to use Moridin's Saa infected body?) is Egwene's vision of Rand's dead body falling apart like paper. As if to say his death is an illusion, fake, he want's people to think he is dead so they will focus on something else.

[Luckers]

Firstly, the question of why Rand would want to use Moridin's infected body is fairly moot. The suggestion has always been that the swap occurs unnintentionally as a result of the pre-existing link between the two and indeed, i personally think it unlikely that it will occur without Rand again severing Moridin from the Dark One and thus forcing him to use saidin concurrently with Rand thus resulting in the swap.

 

Secondly, Egwenes vision specifically links the body with the mourners mourning him. The crumbling suggest to me more that it is the mourners perceptions that are misplaced--which shows only that other percieve Rand to be dead at one stage. Her later vision of mourners raising their voice in song about a man who was not dead and must not die just adds to that.

 

But the issue is that whilst that particular vision is open to interpretations, and yes, does imply the false perception of Rand being dead, it does not suggest that Rand fakes his death. Meanwhile other prophecies about Rand are much more clear in that an actual death occurs--and more specifically, Rand's actual death. Thus the two mix, an actual death of Rand resulting in the false perception that Rand is dead when in fact he is not--which is also required by prophecy.

 

Hence the body swap. The only explanation i can find that handles the pardoxes.