Bigger Perspectives on A Re-Read

[SilentRoamer]

Hey all,

I'm just going through a re-read of WoT. Im probably halfway through EotW. Its been over two decades since I read some of the earlier books and the later books I read on release. I'm spurred on to do this by the TV show as I find the adaption differences something to think about. I didn't actively dislike the show although there were some elements that bother me, I would put it around the same sort of quality as Shannara. 

It's so interesting reading these events with a full perspective on how things turn out and with a full(er) understanding of the world and its actors. The things I have found surprising or enjoyed so far:
 

• The talk about previous Ages and the hints to Ages similar to (or even possibly actually) ours.
• Moraines tale of the Fall of Manatheren - loved her telling of it. 
• Rand channelling much earlier in the book than I remembered - I think its clear he channelled a Healing weave into Bela because Bela manages to keep up with the other horses and is also the most refreshed and doesn't need Moraines Healing. The desciption of "Freezing Bones" is consistent with explicit Saidin channelling later in the series. 

 

I'm really enjoying the pacing and the prose, I mean sure it is quite derivative of LotR but for me this only seems to be true on a surface level. 

I'm planning on my re-read of WoT with some David Gemmell re-reads in between so I don't burn out and accidentally Gentle myself! 🤣

Anyone else done a re-read and how did it hold up for you?

[DojoToad]

Held up very well for me. I’ve read the entire series twice and many of the early books at least six times. 
 

Derivative of LotR and the Belgariad. But still awesome.

 

Just finished my latest re-read before the show came out.  Next one scheduled for 2023.

Edited June 8, 2022 by DojoToad

[Gypsum]

I read the first few books in the late 90s (yikes), then the others as they were released. I figure it was due for a reread this year. I just started The Shadow Rising a couple days ago.

 

Because I write novels myself, I am much more tuned into some of Jordan's writing quirks, far more so than I was as a teenager. For instance, his habit of repetitively describing the physical characteristics of people or places every time we encounter them, more or less using the same words as he did for the last 45 times. You have to assume your readers aren't idiots. They know that the Children of the Light wear white cloaks and sunbursts and very shiny mail. They know Lanfear is the most beautiful woman on the planet. You don't have to say that every single time those guys show up on the page. Similarly, he sometimes overdoes it with painstakingly detailed descriptions of things or very minor characters that don't matter, which bogs down the narrative. I totally get the temptation to describe everything down to the last thread in a coat, but my editor advised me to ease off on some of the details with things that were only peripherally important to the plot. It moves the story along faster, and your readers then pay more attention to your detailed descriptions of stuff that matters.

 

Jordan's writing about horse riding and horse behaviour in general is also pretty dire -- he has clearly never ridden -- but that's just my pet peeve. I doubt he's the first fantasy writer to use lots of horses in a book, but who's never got closer to one than watching racing on the tele.

 

However, it's still epic. It has a very different feel when you know more than the characters, and you can spot all the foreshadowing.  Or realize who's bad news long before the characters do. And the Emond's Fielders are all so cute and naive, especially for the first three books.

 

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by Gypsum

[Andra]

I'm one of those people who re-read everything whenever a new book came out - or more precisely, whenever I bought a new book.  I wasn't always able to keep up, and a couple of times ended up more than one book behind.  But whenever that happened, I still re-read everthing up to that point.

 

I actually got the first two books when they came out in trade paperback format (prior to their hardcover releases).  So my first read through of EotW and tGH happened in 1990.

 

I actually found that the story held up very well, and that I caught more missed details every time.

 

Also, I think being derivative of earlier works was intentional.  Since their world connected to many other worlds, and cycled through its own myths repeatedly with every new turning of the Wheel.  And the echoed details came from pretty much every major source of myths you can think of.  From LotR, yes.  But also from Arthurian legend, Dune, Japanese and Native American myths, even just actual history.

 

The more times through, the more references picked up.

 

For example - most of the Aiel names for their food and textiles are derived directly from real world names.  Algode = cotton.  Zemai = maize.  T'mat = tomato.  Oosquai = whiskey.  Pecara = pecan (genus Carya).  Even the Gara lizard is probably something like Gila Monster.  Or possibly an Alligator Lizard (genus Elgaria).

Edited June 9, 2022 by Andra

[SilentRoamer]

So a couple of things on my re-read - not sure if these are inconsistencies or incongruities with the rest of the series:

Healing leaving a lasting impression similar to the Warder Bond - When Nynaeve comes to Baerlon she is immediately able to sense which Inn Moiraine and co are in because of her having healed Egwene of Breakbone fever. Is this connection via Healing something continued in the books?

Do we see objects like "Tar Valon Marks" being used as GPS tracking devices or is this a unique One Power element to the first book and subsequently abandoned?

 

What weave did Moiraine use to make herself huge? Some form of Illusion? If so then how did she step over the wall?

 

 

[DojoToad]

2 hours ago, SilentRoamer said:

So a couple of things on my re-read - not sure if these are inconsistencies or incongruities with the rest of the series:

Healing leaving a lasting impression similar to the Warder Bond - When Nynaeve comes to Baerlon she is immediately able to sense which Inn Moiraine and co are in because of her having healed Egwene of Breakbone fever. Is this connection via Healing something continued in the books?

Do we see objects like "Tar Valon Marks" being used as GPS tracking devices or is this a unique One Power element to the first book and subsequently abandoned?

 

What weave did Moiraine use to make herself huge? Some form of Illusion? If so then how did she step over the wall?

 

 

Don't recall the healing connection being mentioned ever again.

 

Also don't recall tracking tokens being used again either.

 

Giant Moiraine was some kind of illusion meant to distract.  Don't recall for sure, but believe the gate was still cracked open and she slid through while everyone was staring at her projection.  Been a while though...

[Andra]

16 hours ago, SilentRoamer said:

So a couple of things on my re-read - not sure if these are inconsistencies or incongruities with the rest of the series:

Healing leaving a lasting impression similar to the Warder Bond - When Nynaeve comes to Baerlon she is immediately able to sense which Inn Moiraine and co are in because of her having healed Egwene of Breakbone fever. Is this connection via Healing something continued in the books?

Do we see objects like "Tar Valon Marks" being used as GPS tracking devices or is this a unique One Power element to the first book and subsequently abandoned?

 

What weave did Moiraine use to make herself huge? Some form of Illusion? If so then how did she step over the wall?

 

 

These wouldn't by any means be the only plot gimmicks that Jordan uses once or twice, then abandons completely.  Portal Stones are another pretty big example.

I don't recall the connection from Healing ever being mentioned again.  Which isn't that surprising, considering how many people get Healed, by how many Aes Sedai.  That kind of connection between all of them would get kind of messy.

I thought I remembered other objects being "tracked" in the same way Moiraine's tokens were, but can't think of the context off the top of my head.

 

Moiraine definitely used Illusion to change her appearance.  We see it happen again with the gaggle of Two Rivers girls after Rand told them all he was the Dragon.  Alanna did something similar to get their attention and calm them down, appearing to grow taller until her head brushed the ceiling.   

Moiraine didn't actually step over the wall in Baerlon, she walked through the gate that hadn't closed yet.  It was only her illusory image that did that.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

3 hours ago, Andra said:

These wouldn't by any means be the only plot gimmicks that Jordan uses once or twice, then abandons completely.  Portal Stones are another pretty big example.

On the contrary - portal stones are used again in the final books to transport shadowspawn (once the ways are closed to them) since they die on passing a gateway (except the gholam).  Portal stones become unnecessary to the central characters once they can travel.

 

3 hours ago, Andra said:

I don't recall the connection from Healing ever being mentioned again.  Which isn't that surprising, considering how many people get Healed, by how many Aes Sedai. 

It is only a close range impression and explains (for example) how Moiraine knows who is knocking at her door in later books - AS do a lot of things just for the mystery to awe people.

 

18 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Also don't recall tracking tokens being used again either.

Elaine uses this or something similar to coerce a kleptomanic to act as her spy.

[Guire]

I think alot of Jordan's writing could have been tightened with a less intimate editor.  I have reread the books so many times I see these descriptive blocks as one unit and my mind just jumps past them.  The rereads for certain readers really are the reward with WoT.  The dribbles of foreshadowing and the set up for later emotional highs/lows or character heroism moments are amazing if you are the right kind of reader. For other readers all the flotsam just ruins the subtle beauty.

[Andra]

On 6/16/2022 at 12:29 AM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

On the contrary - portal stones are used again in the final books to transport shadowspawn (once the ways are closed to them) since they die on passing a gateway (except the gholam).  Portal stones become unnecessary to the central characters once they can travel.

It's true that Portal Sones appear again.  But only once that we know of.

And given the fact that we know they've been using the Ways all along, there's no reason to believe this single reappearance was part of a larger practice that we never hear about.  Though Rand put a lot of effort into doing so, the Ways were never successfully closed to the Shadowspawn.  Or if they were, it was only briefly.  Since we know for certain that whatever trap had been on the Waygate in Caemlyn was removed to permit invasion through it.

Which was the point of Verin's letter to Mat - the one he didn't read.

 

Also, this one example is technically from Sanderson, not Jordan.  Though I wouldn't say Jordan definitively excluded it from the notes Sanderson worked from.

[Dhearic]

My current "re-read" is via audio book. For the first time I realized how obvious it was to figure out Asmodeans killer...

[SilentRoamer]

So I finished my EotW re-read and have jumped straight into TGH. Here are some other things I noticed:

 

Power Mechanics

The black cord that Rand chops - in my own mind on my first read I always assumed this was just Aginors connection to the untainted Saidin in the EotW and I assumed that Rand had Shielded Aginor. Do you think that is accurate or do you think this is just a relic of Jordan not having everything crystal clear in terms of the One Power mechanics?

Stairway to Heaven and Travelling to the Gap of Hell
Ok so Rand traverses some stairs in his battle with Aginor - is this the first example of skimming we see? Does Rand also Travel at the end of Book 1 - that seems to me to be the explanation of how he got to Tarwins Gap. 

 

Voice of the Creator

"IT IS NOT HERE. It was not Rand’s thought, making his skull vibrate. I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL. “Where?” He did not want to say it, but he could not stop himself. “Where?” The haze surrounding him parted, leaving a dome of clear, clean air ten spans high, walled by billowing smoke and dust. Steps rose before him, each standing alone and unsupported, stretching up into the murk that obscured the sun. NOT HERE."

The excerpt above seems to have the Creator talking directly to Rand - was this something that Jordan intended and rowed back on? It can easily be explained by Saidin induced madness. 

 

Poor Rand - he really thought he beat the Dark One. Wool headed farm boy.....

[Nik]

I think the black cord is Aginor's connection to the Dark One because Asmodean has a similar one at the end of TSR that Rand also chops off. But it could be something else originally that RJ repurposed once he had a better handle on the mechanics of the One Power.

[Gypsum]

Enjoying my reread. When Jordan isn't overdoing it with people's clothes, he's a powerful writer, and he sucks you into the trippiness of his world. I'm in the middle of The Shadow Rising and everyone has just been through Rhuidean.

 

Here's my question. One of Rand's Rhuidean visions or whatever went back to the Age of Legends. It looks technologically advanced -- they have things that could be cars, planes, firearms, etc. The Breaking of the World happens, which sends everyone back to the 16th century, socially, politically, technologically. Fair enough. All your male channelers have gone nuts and blown up the world. Pretty much a nuclear apocalypse. But Rand's rise to power happens 3000 years after the Breaking. Why have these people not advanced past the 16th century in 3000 years? Aludra and Mat discover that gunpowder is useful for more than fireworks in the final books, but no one in the previous 3000 years worked that one out?

Edited June 22, 2022 by Gypsum

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

6 hours ago, Gypsum said:

Pretty much a nuclear apocalypse. But Rand's rise to power happens 3000 years after the Breaking. Why have these people not advanced past the 16th century in 3000 years? Aludra and Mat discover that gunpowder is useful for more than fireworks in the final books, but no one in the previous 3000 years worked that one out?

The illuminators guild kept it suppressed in the main continent (by assassination if necessary as shown in Mat saving Aludra in book 3), in seanchan the use of damane for both skylights and warfare means no need for weapons research.  Similar reasons can apply in Shara.   Only due to distrust of the one power as a battle weapon (and restrictions on AS use) were Mat and Aludra developing weapons.

 

Equally the very nature of a "third age" in the turning of the wheel is one of slow decay ending in a "last battle" before renewed growth - the return of innovation is a sign that the age is ending.  The characters do not remark on this as it is only clear to the readers outside perspective.  Since the wheel weaves as the wheel wills no one was allowed to think of these things.

 

[SilentRoamer]

On 6/20/2022 at 4:13 PM, Nik said:

I think the black cord is Aginor's connection to the Dark One because Asmodean has a similar one at the end of TSR that Rand also chops off. But it could be something else originally that RJ repurposed once he had a better handle on the mechanics of the One Power.

 

I never thought about a connection to the DO - do you mean the True Source or just some intimation of some type of connection?

 

I always took it for the untainted Saidin stored in the Eye because Rand begins to take some of the Black Cord and then starts taking it all and Aginor starts screaming "it is mine" which I don't think he would do if the connection was to the Dark one and rather to the untainted Saidin stored in the bowl.

Its a really interesting concept and it could even be PTSD or madness shining through. 

[Gypsum]

7 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

The illuminators guild kept it suppressed in the main continent (by assassination if necessary as shown in Mat saving Aludra in book 3), in seanchan the use of damane for both skylights and warfare means no need for weapons research.  Similar reasons can apply in Shara.   Only due to distrust of the one power as a battle weapon (and restrictions on AS use) were Mat and Aludra developing weapons.

 

Equally the very nature of a "third age" in the turning of the wheel is one of slow decay ending in a "last battle" before renewed growth - the return of innovation is a sign that the age is ending.  The characters do not remark on this as it is only clear to the readers outside perspective.  Since the wheel weaves as the wheel wills no one was allowed to think of these things.

 

Yes, that knowledge was deliberately suppressed. You're right. I suppose gunpowder was a bad example. But what about transport? People are using sail power and horse power for 3000 years, with no technological development or innovations. Clearly, in the Age of Legends, they had non-horse transport (and also Travelling... if you can use the One Power to Travel, who cares? I could be in New York in six seconds). Seeing as Travelling had been lost until Rand and co rediscovered it, and most people don't have access to the One Power anyway, one would imagine that some bright spark would be figuring out steam power, or how to create energy with oil. After all, horses are a pain the arse to maintain. I have two.

 

Do the metaphysics of the Wheel of Time prevent innovation? The Wheel weaves in a way where no one on these continents discovers the science that would lead to the internal combustion engine or aeronautical engineering. Nor do they question feudalism or the validity of hereditary autocracy or oligarchy itself. Most of these countries are pretty autocratic. For 3000 years, society on the whole continent seemed pretty static, but industrial revolution and social revolution are intertwined. Does the Wheel prevent both?

[SinisterDeath]

15 hours ago, Gypsum said:

The Breaking of the World happens, which sends everyone back to the 16th century, socially, politically, technologically. Fair enough. All your male channelers have gone nuts and blown up the world. Pretty much a nuclear apocalypse. But Rand's rise to power happens 3000 years after the Breaking. Why have these people not advanced past the 16th century in 3000 years?

We don't really have much information of what their technology/social structure was Post breaking and before the current era. 
We have a few POV's during that time frame, but that was mostly about Aiel wandering the desert getting killed by bandits, not really a good reflection of what the tech or social structure on the main continent was even say, 1500 years prior.

Here's some other anomalies for this being similar to the 16th century.

Armor. We don't have much in the way of description of what their armor was capable of.

 

In our reality, Plate armor become heavier and stronger due to advances in metallurgy and the existence of Long bows and Crossbows that created the need for armor that was capable of resisting arrows/bolts. 
Without the invention of gunpowder & rifling, there's no reason we should see most soldiers in randland would run around basically armorless. This could be an implication that the one power was just so devastating that they never bothered to try to invent armor that could withstand it.

 

It's also interesting that Randland has an obsession with "swordsmanship", at the expense of tactics. This "culture" differences probably lead to some of the non-advancements in technology over at least the last 1000 years.

 

Oh, and Forsaken interference. They were 100% behind keeping technology from advancing too far.

[Nik]

4 hours ago, SilentRoamer said:

 

I never thought about a connection to the DO - do you mean the True Source or just some intimation of some type of connection?

 

I always took it for the untainted Saidin stored in the Eye because Rand begins to take some of the Black Cord and then starts taking it all and Aginor starts screaming "it is mine" which I don't think he would do if the connection was to the Dark one and rather to the untainted Saidin stored in the bowl.

Its a really interesting concept and it could even be PTSD or madness shining through. 

 

I will have to reread. I thought the cord they struggled for was different from the black DO cord. I agree the struggle was over the Eye. Maybe I'm confusing it will something that happened with Ishy.

 

In my defense, it's a very confusing set of scenes 😅

[DojoToad]

I never thought about this too deeply, but I will on the next re-read...

[SilentRoamer]

17 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

We don't really have much information of what their technology/social structure was Post breaking and before the current era. 

 

I would imagine that they clung to the remnants of technological advancements for as long as possible but that these became ever rarer without either:

1. The facilities to replicate the technology (such as say Joh Cars) 

2. Those left with the ability to understand the technology.

3. Those with capability/knowledge in the Power to recreate the manufacturing/industrial base. 

So the Post Breaking era would just be a combination of AoL tech gradually degrading and then a rekindling of more basic none power methods. 

Food production for example - must have been much easier in a weather controlled environment with being capable of Singing crops into maturity. 

As for the reasons why technology never progressed - I think the civil wars within Randland and the Breaking of Nations following the fall of Hawkwings Empire play a huge part of it. 

Also I think for story reasons if the Borderlanders had Automatic Weapons then i'm not sure it would have been fair on the Trollocs. 

[Kalessin]

We shouldn't forget the devastating impact the Trolloc Wars had on the re-establishment of society in the millenium following the Breaking. There was this established, quarrelsome but developing society, and suddenly they are face with three hundred years of devastation. Similar - but shorter wars - in Europe had the effect of slowing down certain societies, the Thirty Years War in the Holy Roman Empire (that Voltaire famously pointed out, was neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire) which took a while to recover from, and that was with suitable trade partners in Europe who didn't suffer a similar devastation.

 

As far as the survival of Second Age technology goes, the Breaking itself would've had a devastating effect. If as one US First Lady was fond of saying, it takes a village to raise a child, it takes a civilization to maintain a technological level. As well as that, a certain level of population. You need a certain number of motor mechanics to make a motor industry viable; you need a certain number of aircraft mechanics to make an aircraft industry viable. And to get those, you need a certain number of skilled craftsmen to be able to turn out the cars and aircraft to a satisfactory standard.

 

If at any point, you lose those technicians, and you lose the information, and you have no way to recover that information, you've lost that technology. I estimate the world's population at the end of the Second Age plunged by at least fifty per cent, if not more. They would not have been able to fix jo-cars let alone sho-wings, even if such things were not buried under the rubble of the cities.

[Gypsum]

That makes sense. I would not expect the survival of Second Age tech after the Breaking, for all the reasons you say. But rather the re-invention of something parallel to it. People experimenting with more efficient ways to plow a field, or move goods from A to B, or kill one another.  That seems like human nature. Even with wars, I can't think of anywhere in our world which has been in total stasis for a few thousand years. Arguably, wars drive tech development.

 

To be more meta, it's a high fantasy trope to set your epic in a pre-industrial society. Tolkien paved the way  with that. Jordan very much paid homage to him. That's probably the biggest reason why everyone is riding horses and running around with swords.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Gypsum

[SinisterDeath]

7 minutes ago, Gypsum said:

Even with wars, I can't think of anywhere in our world which has been in total stasis for a few thousand years. Arguably, wars drive tech development.

To be fair, we don't know if they were knocked back to the literal stone age.
E.g. From the "Copper Age" to the "Iron Age" was ~3200 years in our reality.

In our reality we had various wars and religions that effectively stalled our technological advancement, like when the Library of Alexandria was burnt to the ground.

 

In Randland, we had literal agents of the Dark One that were probably assassinating anyone that developed anything too advanced. We have an example of just this when Rand founds his own little College, and a scholar who was helping Rand figure out how to stop the DO got assassinated.

 

[SilentRoamer]

I don't think technological stagnation is hard to believe. The European Dark Ages can be considered as lasting 500 Years. Thats without the One Power, without Trollocs and environmental pressure (The Blight), the Illuminators Guild, Forsaken destabilising things (Ishamael in particular has been a wrecking ball to any kind of unification or technological development). 

I think its also worth remembering that while the AoL did have the Standing Weaves to ensure non channelers could use technological items, these were developed in conjunction with understanding of the One Power. Take for example Mettalurgy - why bother to develop technology based on different strength metals when the One Power can create Power Wrought metal or even something which is completely impervious to all forms of damage including other channelers. My suspicion would be that during the AoL there would be great understanding of mettalurgy but it would be kind of abstract fascination - sort of like a hobby, which is how I see other Academic pursuits such as Philosophy and Psychology. Why develop complex understanding of natural functions like how the body works when you have significant parts of the population that could Heal with a touch. 

As the Aes Sedai (or more widely Channelers) began to be reduced so does the technological manufacturing base. Not to mention that half of the technological development base team are now likely to go insane and kill everyone!