Moiraine, Siuan, and the Oath

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

On 12/26/2022 at 1:42 PM, Sir_Charrid said:

Gandalf would have done all he could to see all the Emonds Field children safe, Morraine makes it clear they are all expendable in order to win the last battle. 

Is this the same Gandalf who essentially shoves Bilbo and the dwarves into a blender and hopes for the best (in The Hobbit) in pursuit of a nebulous plan to replace the desolation of Smaug with kingdoms of the free peoples and so put an obstacle in the way of Sauron (as later explained in LoTR appendices)?  He then also repeatedly wanders off leaving them in mortal danger along the way and nearly sets off a war between dwarves, elves and men.  There is a lot of evidence in the books of general distrust for wizards (as I quoted).  

[Guire]

10 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

The books do the same thing, the Village Council are immediately undermined by the Women's Circle who are immediately undermined by Moraine, who gets ignored or fought by the kids frequently.
 

I didn't see cartoonish, they're arrogant in the books too.  As for inept, the battle for the gap was sloppy, but that was due to Covid more than anything.  I can give some forgiveness because it was a case of "Something will be put out, now figure it out or else."  So they do something simple and hope they can redeem later.
 

This is nonsense and I really do start to take offense at this insistence that any man being sensitive or more than a brick wall with a sword is somehow failing the Gaidin.  If you know the books to compare then you KNOW the bond and the warders are not what Lan portrays in book 1.   Not even Lan is what Lan portrays in book 1.
 

As they were in the books?  Maybe it comes from years of being a D&D player or maybe it's from reading Modesitt before Tolkien, but I NEVER took the Aes Sedai as mysterious and awe inducing, they were always just the magic users.  The infighting starts showing up at the beginning of Book 2 and gets worse progressively, so not sure what the complaint is supposed to be.

On my phone so cant answer comprehensively.  May later more point for point.  

 

First, warders through out books are described as dangerous, hyper-alert, always on the edge of violent action. They are also juiced by the bond to almost a superhuman level.  No where did I say a warder couldn't be sensitive, effeminate, short, or comically muscular.  The show has chosen them to be primarily emotional support and assistants.  Yes this is part of the bond but we just dont get much of the other.  Think Arya from GoT.  There should be a stillness, an economy of movement, an always on duty feel.

 

Second the borderlanders we were shown, the battle, the preparation, everything was comical.  It felt like a quest hub for World of Warcraft.  Not a fortified city that has held back the shadow for a 1000 years. Lots of things show could have done to improve emotional investment in characters and story,.  Given us a bit more characterization for EF5 and borderlanders while staying within restrictions of covid.  Maybe the need to use already shot footage and lack of availability of Agelmar or Amalisa actors may have hampered this. Otherwise it was bumbled.

 

Why would you be personally offended by warders characterization as warderdoodles.  Unless you wrote the script and felt you did a perfect characterization from book no reason to be offwnded. My family would characterize me as a warderdoodle.  I use that because my dogs in last 15 yeats have been a Great Pyrenhees and a boxerdoodle. The GP was a warder til her death.  The boxerdoodle is a total warderdoodle.

[KakitaOCU]

6 hours ago, Guire said:

 

First, warders through out books are described as dangerous, hyper-alert, always on the edge of violent action. They are also juiced by the bond to almost a superhuman level.  No where did I say a warder couldn't be sensitive, effeminate, short, or comically muscular.  The show has chosen them to be primarily emotional support and assistants.  Yes this is part of the bond but we just dont get much of the other.  Think Arya from GoT.  There should be a stillness, an economy of movement, an always on duty feel.

The thing is, telling us that in a book is cool, actually showing that on TV is boring.  Do you know what always on the edge of action, always calm, cool, in control looks like?  Boring.  It's small subtle things.  You notice when they walk they don't bob up and down like normal people, you notice their hand is always free and able to quickly move to a weapon or opponent's limb.  You notice the eyes are never quite resting.   And on camera that... Looks like a person casually walking or standing.   Again, nothing I've seen in the show suggests they aren't super competent warriors.  A handful of Sisters and Warders took down an army of 100's.  It was a little sloppy, but it happened.
 

6 hours ago, Guire said:

Given us a bit more characterization for EF5 and borderlanders while staying within restrictions of covid.  Maybe the need to use already shot footage and lack of availability of Agelmar or Amalisa actors may have hampered this. Otherwise it was bumbled.

That's just it, it wasn't Covid Restrictions as an existing thing, it was Covid shut down production for months and caused everything to be scrapped and rewritten in a two month period.  I don't argue that it looks kind of bad, I just think the real world reasons for that give some excuse and leeway.
 

6 hours ago, Guire said:

Why would you be personally offended by warders characterization as warderdoodles. 

To be clear, I'm not specifically bothered by your statement, I just disagree with it.  But being perfectly frank, the statement is intended to make a comparison between the TV and Book Gaiden and then have the TV ones seem inferior.  Regardless of if you're okay with the term you are trying to make one lesser, which does put it in the category of what I was saying I was getting tired of.   

It's also not something you're doing heavily, but I spent months watching certain individuals on this forum essentially preach that a "real" warder was X, Y, Z and that the TV ruined it by showing things like... Them laughing, them having humanity, them caring about something.  Heck, some people ranted over something as small as "Lan shouldn't cry!"   It's become a pattern.  

[DojoToad]

28 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

The thing is, telling us that in a book is cool, actually showing that on TV is boring.  Do you know what always on the edge of action, always calm, cool, in control looks like?  Boring.  It's small subtle things.  You notice when they walk they don't bob up and down like normal people, you notice their hand is always free and able to quickly move to a weapon or opponent's limb.  You notice the eyes are never quite resting.   And on camera that... Looks like a person casually walking or standing.   Again, nothing I've seen in the show suggests they aren't super competent warriors.  A handful of Sisters and Warders took down an army of 100's.  It was a little sloppy, but it happened.

Boring is a matter of opinion - just as is cool.  I've seen TV and movie characters modeled to be like a Warder.  I was not bored, but rather tense - what is this person going to do?  Are they going to explode into a flurry of bloodshed?  Will they casually take care of business then return to tense alertness?

 

A handful of magic users and elite warriors took out a ragtag group of fighters with neither of those advantages - that is what should happen.  Were you expecting a different result?

 

The writers/producers/showrunner all got what was scripted. 😜  The creators (TV/movie/Lit) always get what they want because that is how it was created - sloppy or not.  We judge how well they did based on how sloppy it was.

[Scarloc99]

14 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Is this the same Gandalf who essentially shoves Bilbo and the dwarves into a blender and hopes for the best (in The Hobbit) in pursuit of a nebulous plan to replace the desolation of Smaug with kingdoms of the free peoples and so put an obstacle in the way of Sauron (as later explained in LoTR appendices)?  He then also repeatedly wanders off leaving them in mortal danger along the way and nearly sets off a war between dwarves, elves and men.  There is a lot of evidence in the books of general distrust for wizards (as I quoted).  

Hmmm I mean no, he leads them

to Mirkwood and, as soon as he learns the path has been destroyed tried to return to

save them. They all accepted that they didn’t know how they would kill the dragon once they got there, he also didn’t know that Thorin would go crazy. 
 

He left them because he needed to deal

with the necromancer, he makes that clear. But he puts himself in harms way before anyone else. 

[KakitaOCU]

18 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Boring is a matter of opinion - just as is cool.  I've seen TV and movie characters modeled to be like a Warder.  I was not bored, but rather tense - what is this person going to do?  Are they going to explode into a flurry of bloodshed?  Will they casually take care of business then return to tense alertness?

Absolutely.  And for someone insightful, or with the ability to see nuance, or someone trained, it can be cool seeing that.  But for the average viewer? 

Once I was looking for a new martial arts school and I decided to go check out a BJJ studio for the first time.  Some friends who claimed they were interested came along.  We watched a few sparring matches, took a look at the school.  One friend and myself watched a fight and saw technique, skill, precision.  The third friend said "Why are they just lying on the ground hugging?"   

The show has to aim at the wide audience.  This is true in everything.  It's why the Swordplay in almost any fantasy movie or show is garbage and nonsense.  Flash is more interesting to look at.

 

[DojoToad]

20 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Absolutely.  And for someone insightful, or with the ability to see nuance, or someone trained, it can be cool seeing that.  But for the average viewer? 

Once I was looking for a new martial arts school and I decided to go check out a BJJ studio for the first time.  Some friends who claimed they were interested came along.  We watched a few sparring matches, took a look at the school.  One friend and myself watched a fight and saw technique, skill, precision.  The third friend said "Why are they just lying on the ground hugging?"   

The show has to aim at the wide audience.  This is true in everything.  It's why the Swordplay in almost any fantasy movie or show is garbage and nonsense.  Flash is more interesting to look at.

 

True that.  I've had trouble finding martial arts schools for the same reason.

 

When I read a book, my imagination brings my mind to the 'correct' spot - unless there is something so overtly wrong that I just can't steer my mind there.

 

TV and movies are harder because the stuff is right in your face without imagination being able to compensate for whatever is 'wrong'.  I'm just not as forgiving with what I deem as failures on the screen.  Just can't turn off the judgement.  Not to say I never suspend disbelief or cut slack.  But my ability to do so is usually directly correlated to how much I care about the show.  Ruins my enjoyment of some stuff - but just the way I am...

[KakitaOCU]

8 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

TV and movies are harder because the stuff is right in your face without imagination being able to compensate for whatever is 'wrong'.  I'm just not as forgiving with what I deem as failures on the screen.  Just can't turn off the judgement.  Not to say I never suspend disbelief or cut slack.  But my ability to do so is usually directly correlated to how much I care about the show.  Ruins my enjoyment of some stuff - but just the way I am...

Makes sense to me.  I'm a bit better, but it's largely because I also understand stage fighting and acrobatics and so I tend to look for those technical aspects instead of an actual fight.  Even then, it only works so long as nothing triggers my brain to see it as such.

Fun example is Phantom Menace.  I give a lot of props to the Duel of Fates.  And StarWars has never been THAT realistic when it comes to sabre fights.  But then I saw an interview where Ray Park bragged about how he choreographed the entire sequence and never left a single opening...  And now anytime I watch that fight it's just "You die there, you die there, you die there."   Ruins my ability to just have fun with it.  🙂

[Scarloc99]

5 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Makes sense to me.  I'm a bit better, but it's largely because I also understand stage fighting and acrobatics and so I tend to look for those technical aspects instead of an actual fight.  Even then, it only works so long as nothing triggers my brain to see it as such.

Fun example is Phantom Menace.  I give a lot of props to the Duel of Fates.  And StarWars has never been THAT realistic when it comes to sabre fights.  But then I saw an interview where Ray Park bragged about how he choreographed the entire sequence and never left a single opening...  And now anytime I watch that fight it's just "You die there, you die there, you die there."   Ruins my ability to just have fun with it.  🙂

My very guilty pleasure is Wrestling, but in much the same way when I watch it with my wife who is a 3rd Dan in judo she has to constantly point out all the logical issues and how it makes no sense and if it where a real fight none of it would actually work lol. The moment she does that I find myself having to turn it off because I have lost my immersion lol. 
 

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Sir_Charrid

[Mailman]

8 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Makes sense to me.  I'm a bit better, but it's largely because I also understand stage fighting and acrobatics and so I tend to look for those technical aspects instead of an actual fight.  Even then, it only works so long as nothing triggers my brain to see it as such.

Fun example is Phantom Menace.  I give a lot of props to the Duel of Fates.  And StarWars has never been THAT realistic when it comes to sabre fights.  But then I saw an interview where Ray Park bragged about how he choreographed the entire sequence and never left a single opening...  And now anytime I watch that fight it's just "You die there, you die there, you die there."   Ruins my ability to just have fun with it.  🙂

It's still 1000x better than the throne room fight from Last Jedi where they had to CGI out weapons in post-production.

 

I always hoped the fights for WoT would be like the duel of the fates or Anakin vs Obi-wan in the movies. The use of the force and the oneness lend themselves to that almost dancing style of fighting which while not realistic look great visually. I always thought the almost predictive nature of the force and the oneness to sort of cover what may be perceived to be openings somewhat.

[DojoToad]

8 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

My very guilty pleasure is Wrestling, but in much the same way when I watch it with my wife who is a 3rd Dan in judo she has to constantly point out all the logical issues and how it makes no sense and if it where a real fight none of it would actually work lol. The moment she does that I find myself having to turn it off because I have lost my immersion lol. 
 

 

Reality always getting in the way of a good time.

[Elder_Haman]

On 12/28/2022 at 7:58 PM, Mailman said:

It's still 1000x better than the throne room fight from Last Jedi where they had to CGI out weapons in post-production.

You mean the one where they used two different angles of the same sequence and pretended they were entirely different things?

[wotfan4472]

On 1/20/2022 at 3:09 AM, ilovezam said:

Without even going into whether it's a good change or not, it was executed laughably poorly. They were openly weeping in full sight of the Hall while Moiraine was given a "punishment" that allowed her to continue doing her stuff outside of the Tower, which was what Liandrin used to get her into trouble in the first place. Anyone with half a brain would have immediately called out on it, especially given the Aes Sedai's propensity to bicker.

 

There were also so many easy ways to get out of the "pressure" put up by Liandrin. It was framed as though there was some political masterclass going on there with the characters, but it was in fact written more like an episode of Mean Girls than anything else. 

 

Liandrin: Her purpose - the purpose of all Blues, is to gather secrets and discover danger before it strikes at the heart of us, before it strikes at you, Mother. But Trollocs invaded from the west, and Logain's army swelled from the south without even a warning from Moiraine. Why?

 

Moiraine: Yo. I was following rumours of ta'veren (may as well make that one-liner relevant again) and brought back the most powerful channeller in a thousand years, without whom all of us, you included, would have been dead. I suspected that she might have potential but she had no training and could not channel as far as I knew then. She would be a great asset under the Tower, instead of a dangerous wilder. In the two years since I left, I travelled from Tear to the Two Rivers and many towns in between. Neither of which are in the same general direction as Ghaeldan or "the west". Also, Logain and his army sounds like Red Ajah business, where were the warnings from you lot?

 

FIN

 

 

 

 

That is the dumbest thing Moiraine could have said.

 

Any mention of Taveren in her group would lead to the Dragon in that conversation.

Any mention of the Dragon, and Moiraine in the same sentence would see her stilled and executed within hours of that meeting with the Hall. They all know the Prophecies. A whiff of Taveren, instant connection.

 

Particularly if the Aes Sedai started thinking Nyneave was the Dragon Reborn on the month trip back to Tar Valon.  She would have suffered the same fate.

 

What we saw was the opening moves of the Game Of Houses in one location, and how it will affect the main story and that world power.

 

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by wotfan4472

[expat]

Disagree.  Ta'veren doesn't imply Dragon.  Was Hawkwing the Dragon? Historically, is the Dragon even known as Ta'veren?  It's unclear that the concept even existed when LTT was alive.  From Forsaken POVs, we know that they consider Rand lucky and they believe that his luck is going to run out.  If they had the concept of Ta'veren and they knew that LTT was the strongest one, their conversation should have been much different than the books.

 

If the AS suspected that Nyneave was the Dragon reborn, why would she be stilled and executed?  There is no prohibition against women channelers.  At worst, she would be in the generic danger from the black Ajah as any other potential Dragon.