Moiraine, Siuan, and the Oath

[Mailman]

47 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Thanks I made that point as well but it seems to not want to be heard, even hunting down Perrin Morraine doesn’t go in a straight line, she figures out where he is and where he is likely to be heading to and intercepts. It is Nyn who drives constantly trying to find them, she wants to move faster, further, Morraine always felt like she was moving at a more relaxed pace, she certainly wasn’t riding her and Lans horses to death. Or trying to hunt through the day and night for them. Like you say she was confident she would find them and she did. In the books she has the same view and behaves the same. In that moment the real threat is both Logain, but also the red who Morraine knows will switch there attention elsewhere as soon as Logain is Gentled. 
 

I also just want to add in the books Egwene is at the bottom of her priority list, Nyn is under no illusions that Morraine will sacrifice all of them for the Dragon Reborn. 

It has been addressed.

Why when you can sense the direction he is travelling in, in real time, would you not account for an intercept course based on his current movements.

Riding the horses to death or exhaustion would make them slower. Which would be stupid.

Nynaeve wants to find them all and Moiraine logically explains her plans and reasoning which make sense to Nynaeve. Moiraine at no point does not want to find them all any less than Nynaeve does even if not for the same reasons.

 

Logain is more than a month from being gentled at that point and while the red may be interested in Moiraines movements it is not more important to keep that secret in comparison to protecting the Dragon Reborn.

 

Logain is not the main threat. the threat to the true dragon is the main threat always.

[expat]

Quote

Moiraine makes multiple plans. 

Without the artifact of the coins, please explain how Moiraine was supposed to find our heroes?   In the book, they were separated by enough distance immediately after the escape that she couldn't quickly find/retrieve them, even with the coins.  In the show, more time passed because she was sick and then she was under the distrustful eye of the Reds throughout the journey.  Ignoring the Reds, it was like in 1700 America, trying to follow people from the edge of the frontier to Washington without knowing their path.  There were lots of ways to get between the two spots, so making elaborate plans, that you couldn't execute, to find them was only for show

 

Given they didn't have show time to spend large amounts on Moiraine trying to track down the lost heroes, what would have been gained by making a big deal of her making plans to find them?  I don't know about you, but Moiraine using her magical GPS to slowly follow behind the others is not interesting TV.

 

I don't miss the coins because even in the books they were clearly just plot movers since they never appeared again and they would have been extremely useful at many stages of the series.

[Mailman]

2 hours ago, expat said:

Without the artifact of the coins, please explain how Moiraine was supposed to find our heroes?   In the book, they were separated by enough distance immediately after the escape that she couldn't quickly find/retrieve them, even with the coins.  In the show, more time passed because she was sick and then she was under the distrustful eye of the Reds throughout the journey.  Ignoring the Reds, it was like in 1700 America, trying to follow people from the edge of the frontier to Washington without knowing their path.  There were lots of ways to get between the two spots, so making elaborate plans, that you couldn't execute, to find them was only for show

 

Given they didn't have show time to spend large amounts on Moiraine trying to track down the lost heroes, what would have been gained by making a big deal of her making plans to find them?  I don't know about you, but Moiraine using her magical GPS to slowly follow behind the others is not interesting TV.

 

I don't miss the coins because even in the books they were clearly just plot movers since they never appeared again and they would have been extremely useful at many stages of the series.

Could you please stop quoting me and removing the attribution of the author of the quote. I am not sure why you do it every time. I dont even know how you do it.

 

It does not change the fact that show Moiraine went from proactive to passive.

She could have gone to likely locations and asked questions. She could have gone to locations near TV and found the potential male channeler before they entered alone exposing them to danger. Nynaeve, Moiraine and Lan could have covered 3 of the roads into TV and met each evening to see if they found any of them.

She has just about the best tracker in the blight. And she has Nynaeve who is a good tracker as well.

Still claiming that Moiraine is in the same spot as book Moiraine makes no sense. She is still changed by the writers into a passive character.

 

 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Mailman

[DigificWriter]

7 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

He hasn’t used the word still yet has he? Pretty sure she has been blocked in some way but not stilled. 

 

I believe he's outright said she was Stilled, but even if he hasn't, he still confirmed that fact anyway by not correcting multiple interviewers who used that specific term to describe what happened to her at the Eye.

 

Also, I believe that Rosamund has said that Moiraine was Stilled at the Eye (even if Rafe didn't).

[expat]

Mailman said

Quote

Could you please stop quoting me and removing the attribution of the author of the quote. I am not sure why you do it every time. I dont even know how you do it.

Sorry, I never noticed that I didn't have attribution of the previous author in my posts (of course, I never noticed that other posts did have attribution either).  However, after your request, I tried to post this with attribution, but I have no idea how to do it.  Everything I tried got a message about my browser not supporting it.

 

Mailman said

Quote

Nynaeve, Moiraine and Lan could have covered 3 of the roads into TV and met each evening to see if they found any of them.

She had people watching the gates.  She knew when Mat and Rand entered the city and she knew where they were staying.  In the show, she said something about her eyes and ears watching the gates.  Moiraine and company couldn't do it personally since Liandrin and the Reds were suspicious of her and watching her and her group closely.  Would it really have helped the show if there were explicit scenes where she discussed getting people to watch the entrances?

[Mailman]

2 hours ago, expat said:

Mailman said

Sorry, I never noticed that I didn't have attribution of the previous author in my posts (of course, I never noticed that other posts did have attribution either).  However, after your request, I tried to post this with attribution, but I have no idea how to do it.  Everything I tried got a message about my browser not supporting it.

NPS then. The main issue is that I don't get an alert that someone has responded to my post is all.

[Scarloc99]

3 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

I believe he's outright said she was Stilled, but even if he hasn't, he still confirmed that fact anyway by not correcting multiple interviewers who used that specific term to describe what happened to her at the Eye.

 

Also, I believe that Rosamund has said that Moiraine was Stilled at the Eye (even if Rafe didn't).

Having a hunt online it is all still very much being left as a “wait and find out”. So I think we shouldn’t read anything into anything said or not said. If Rafe corrects everyone it will let on she isn’t stilled so better to just let people think she is and surprise them. 

[DigificWriter]

@Sir_Charrid I don't think we're dealing with any ambiguity at all here, but we'll see what Season 2 brings when we get it sometime next year.

 

My broader point is that I think changes are inevitable vis a vis Moiraine and characters intimately connected to her as a consequence of the show having shifted the point of view so as to position her as the central 'narrator'.

[A Memory Of Why]

I'm still convinced it was a knotted shield with a touch of compulsion instead of a stilling.

[VooDooNut]

19 minutes ago, A Memory Of Why said:

I'm still convinced it was a knotted shield with a touch of compulsion instead of a stilling.

Yep. We saw a stilling gentling with Logain. We saw *something else* with Moiraine. I like the idea of compulsion.

Edited December 24, 2022 by VooDooNut

[ForsakenPotato]

It's also pretty subjective what different viewers and readers are going to get out of Moiraine's characterization in either the books or the show. When I read book 1, Moiraine felt to me like an extremely aloof and potentially morally ambiguous character. Yeah she's kinda like Gandalf but Gandalf is very warm and friendly in comparison. He's like the sweet group grandpa and Moiraine is like the strict school fieldtrip chaperone. Yes she's driven, yes she's ambitious, but as a first time reader I wasn't totally sure what was driving her and it wasn't immediately obvious to me she was trustworthy, mainly because we see her from the POV of characters who also aren't sure they can trust her. It was only later in the books that I understood more of her motivation and behavior and actually liked her at all.

 

What I like about her portrayal in the show is that we get to see more of her as a full character early on. Her friendships and enemies in the white tower, her private conversations with Lan, a little romance, etc. I don't think she's less ambitious or focused than she was in the books, and she still is regularly annoyed and pissy with the teenagers (and withholds potentially useful info from them), but we also get to see the rest of her life and personally, I found that made her much more relatable and easy to root for.

 

Obviously that's just how it struck me, and others had different experiences! That's part of why it's great to see this story told is different mediums and different ways!

[Scarloc99]

15 minutes ago, ForsakenPotato said:

It's also pretty subjective what different viewers and readers are going to get out of Moiraine's characterization in either the books or the show. When I read book 1, Moiraine felt to me like an extremely aloof and potentially morally ambiguous character. Yeah she's kinda like Gandalf but Gandalf is very warm and friendly in comparison. He's like the sweet group grandpa and Moiraine is like the strict school fieldtrip chaperone. Yes she's driven, yes she's ambitious, but as a first time reader I wasn't totally sure what was driving her and it wasn't immediately obvious to me she was trustworthy, mainly because we see her from the POV of characters who also aren't sure they can trust her. It was only later in the books that I understood more of her motivation and behavior and actually liked her at all.

 

What I like about her portrayal in the show is that we get to see more of her as a full character early on. Her friendships and enemies in the white tower, her private conversations with Lan, a little romance, etc. I don't think she's less ambitious or focused than she was in the books, and she still is regularly annoyed and pissy with the teenagers (and withholds potentially useful info from them), but we also get to see the rest of her life and personally, I found that made her much more relatable and easy to root for.

 

Obviously that's just how it struck me, and others had different experiences! That's part of why it's great to see this story told is different mediums and different ways!

This voices far far better what I was trying to say.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

2 hours ago, ForsakenPotato said:

Yeah she's kinda like Gandalf but Gandalf is very warm and friendly in comparison. He's like the sweet group grandpa and Moiraine is like the strict school fieldtrip chaperone.

That is not the impression I have of Gandalf - he is also mysterious and arbitrary at times, and is directly spoken of as not explaining his actions.  He may be trusted by the hobbits but elsewhere he is feared (allowing Wormtoung to poison Theoden's opinion of him).  It is worth keeping in mind that he belongs to the same category of being as the Balrog and Sauron and is likewise capable of terrible things if he falls.  he has thousands of years of practice at assuming his harmless old man poise and there are so few wizards so he is not facing problems from the general opinions of his order so he is just better at being trusted than she is.  Also he shamelessly uses the power of the ring of fire to inspire people to follow his suggestions of valorous conduct.

 

"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger" was the opinion of an elf.

Edited December 25, 2022 by bringbackthomsmoustache

[Mailman]

4 hours ago, ForsakenPotato said:

It's also pretty subjective what different viewers and readers are going to get out of Moiraine's characterization in either the books or the show. When I read book 1, Moiraine felt to me like an extremely aloof and potentially morally ambiguous character. Yeah she's kinda like Gandalf but Gandalf is very warm and friendly in comparison. He's like the sweet group grandpa and Moiraine is like the strict school fieldtrip chaperone. Yes she's driven, yes she's ambitious, but as a first time reader I wasn't totally sure what was driving her and it wasn't immediately obvious to me she was trustworthy, mainly because we see her from the POV of characters who also aren't sure they can trust her. It was only later in the books that I understood more of her motivation and behavior and actually liked her at all.

 

What I like about her portrayal in the show is that we get to see more of her as a full character early on. Her friendships and enemies in the white tower, her private conversations with Lan, a little romance, etc. I don't think she's less ambitious or focused than she was in the books, and she still is regularly annoyed and pissy with the teenagers (and withholds potentially useful info from them), but we also get to see the rest of her life and personally, I found that made her much more relatable and easy to root for.

 

Obviously that's just how it struck me, and others had different experiences! That's part of why it's great to see this story told is different mediums and different ways!

Firstly I would say ambitious is a poor word to describe Moiraine. It is more apt to describe Moiraine and Siuan plan as ambitious and the fact that they would have gladly sacrificed their own lives in service of this plan makes them more selfless in it's service. I never got the impression at any point in the series that Moiraine was acting in her own self-interest.

 

I'm not sure how seeing her having more normal side interests during the show could fail to impact your view that she was less focused on her mission's goals. It may give the character a wider appeal but you have 100% lessened her portrayal as being fixated on her goal. Her fixation was what made her character compelling in the books it is what made her great. 

 

 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

5 hours ago, Mailman said:

I'm not sure how seeing her having more normal side interests during the show could fail to impact your view that she was less focused on her mission's goals. It may give the character a wider appeal but you have 100% lessened her portrayal as being fixated on her goal. Her fixation was what made her character compelling in the books it is what made her great. 

To play devils advocate in favour of the show one could argue that the show needed a quick way to show that Moiraine was sacrificing something in order to pursue her self imposed duty of finding the dragon reborn - and sacrificing romantic love is a clear way to do that rather than the more nebulous concept of sacrificing the opportunity to do a (non-specific) something instead.  A bit like using a redshirt dying as a quick way to establish that there is a mortal threat in an episode of star trek (as this is a one off for the show rather than happening in most episodes it does not lay them open to an accusation of lazy writing).

[ForsakenPotato]

@Mailman in my view ambition doesn't need to solely be for personal gain, I don't think of it as the same thing as greed -- she's ambitious in service of specific goal. She has to make sacrifices, she has to keep her goals in mind, she has to be continually planning and pivoting and making hard choices. But she's not, most of the time, like a university student cramming for an exam who is so focused they don't eat, sleep, bathe, or speak to friends. It's a marathon not a sprint. She's been doing this for decades. It makes complete sense to me that in that time she has also formed relationships and enjoyed baths and has inside jokes with her warder. Even in the books she has her stuff with Thom which is real and genuine and not about her over-arching goal to guide Rand.

 

Rand himself has only a few years to literally save the entire world and he seems to find time for extracurriculars like having three girlfriends and learning the flute or whatever. He's the dragon reborn, but he's also a person. With a life. I don't see why that needs to be allowed for him but forbidden for Moiraine. But maybe it's time to just agree to disagree on this one, I certainly respect that we didn't have the same impression of her and that's ok!

 

@bringbackthomsmoustache fair points on Gandalf, I'm not very well versed in LotR! My impression from the movies which I've only seen a few times was that he was mostly a kindly old guy who babysat the hobbits and would occasionally save everyone's butts by whipping out some magic or or saying something wise sounding in a stern voice. But I definitely don't know the lore in detail, so makes sense I would have missed that a lot of that is an act he puts on to achieve his goals -- thanks for informing me!

Edited December 25, 2022 by ForsakenPotato
typo as usual

[Scarloc99]

On 12/25/2022 at 2:19 AM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

That is not the impression I have of Gandalf - he is also mysterious and arbitrary at times, and is directly spoken of as not explaining his actions.  He may be trusted by the hobbits but elsewhere he is feared (allowing Wormtoung to poison Theoden's opinion of him).  It is worth keeping in mind that he belongs to the same category of being as the Balrog and Sauron and is likewise capable of terrible things if he falls.  he has thousands of years of practice at assuming his harmless old man poise and there are so few wizards so he is not facing problems from the general opinions of his order so he is just better at being trusted than she is.  Also he shamelessly uses the power of the ring of fire to inspire people to follow his suggestions of valorous conduct.

 

"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger" was the opinion of an elf.

No Gandalf is loved by all that have not been corrupted by Sauron (or Saruman). In the books it is shown that Borimir and Fatimir have a lot of affection for him and he was given free rein of the city of Gondor before their father was turned by the plaintir. The Rohinrian also have an affection for him, again until Saruman works to turn them. Yes he keeps his secrets, but he puts all life above his own. Morraine would have killed Frodo before allowing Sauron to have the ring, Gandalf would never have that remote thought. Gandalf would have done all he could to see all the Emonds Field children safe, Morraine makes it clear they are all expendable in order to win the last battle. 

[Scarloc99]

On 12/25/2022 at 5:32 AM, Mailman said:

Firstly I would say ambitious is a poor word to describe Moiraine. It is more apt to describe Moiraine and Siuan plan as ambitious and the fact that they would have gladly sacrificed their own lives in service of this plan makes them more selfless in it's service. I never got the impression at any point in the series that Moiraine was acting in her own self-interest.

 

I'm not sure how seeing her having more normal side interests during the show could fail to impact your view that she was less focused on her mission's goals. It may give the character a wider appeal but you have 100% lessened her portrayal as being fixated on her goal. Her fixation was what made her character compelling in the books it is what made her great. 

 

 

In book 1 we learn very little about Morraine as a character because she has no POV chapters or even paragraphs. She keeps herself aloof, explains next to nothing to the other characters until the very end, and even then is limited in what she says. She makes it clear that all the boys the 2 women and herself are expendable, in fact if she had known who the Dragon is earlier I have no doubt she would have ignored Mat and Perrin when the group was split up and chased only after Rand. 

We only discover what you talk about in later books, or in the prequel, on the very first read through Morraine as a character is very one dimensional in book 1, in fact I remember on the first read through thinking she was just a crueler version of Gandalf there to ensure the party got to where they needed to in the story. It is later on as a character she gets more interesting, now, in the TV show, that book version of Morraine would have come across awfully on TV and viewers would have come to the end of season 1 thinking there was nothing sympathetic about her. The TV show has to approach things differently. You seem to think TV Morraine isn't focused, like that focus is a good charaxcter point, but, the fact is in book 1 it is the only character point. 

I have said it before but I will repeat it, had Robert Jordan written Eye of the World after books 4/5 had been written you would have had a different morraine being written, one more like you see in the TV show. That is where he moves to in writing her, in fact even the way she is written in New Spring is different to Eye of the World, and there is a clear reason for this. Robert Jordan wrote Eye of the World for book publishers, he knew the tropes and characterisation they wanted to see from a fantasy book in the late 80's early 90's and so he wrote that. He wrote a Lord of the Rings inspired piece because that was what he needed to to get published. Then, as the series progressed he subtly changed his writing style and in doing so also changed a number of characters and the way he presents them. But, the key thing about Morraine in book 1 is that we can't say we really know anything about her, and that is the intention of RJ, for a TV show the audience have to warm to her in order to care about her.  

[Guire]

6 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

In book 1 we learn very little about Morraine as a character because she has no POV chapters or even paragraphs. She keeps herself aloof, explains next to nothing to the other characters until the very end, and even then is limited in what she says. She makes it clear that all the boys the 2 women and herself are expendable, in fact if she had known who the Dragon is earlier I have no doubt she would have ignored Mat and Perrin when the group was split up and chased only after Rand. 

We only discover what you talk about in later books, or in the prequel, on the very first read through Morraine as a character is very one dimensional in book 1, in fact I remember on the first read through thinking she was just a crueler version of Gandalf there to ensure the party got to where they needed to in the story. It is later on as a character she gets more interesting, now, in the TV show, that book version of Morraine would have come across awfully on TV and viewers would have come to the end of season 1 thinking there was nothing sympathetic about her. The TV show has to approach things differently. You seem to think TV Morraine isn't focused, like that focus is a good charaxcter point, but, the fact is in book 1 it is the only character point. 

I have said it before but I will repeat it, had Robert Jordan written Eye of the World after books 4/5 had been written you would have had a different morraine being written, one more like you see in the TV show. That is where he moves to in writing her, in fact even the way she is written in New Spring is different to Eye of the World, and there is a clear reason for this. Robert Jordan wrote Eye of the World for book publishers, he knew the tropes and characterisation they wanted to see from a fantasy book in the late 80's early 90's and so he wrote that. He wrote a Lord of the Rings inspired piece because that was what he needed to to get published. Then, as the series progressed he subtly changed his writing style and in doing so also changed a number of characters and the way he presents them. But, the key thing about Morraine in book 1 is that we can't say we really know anything about her, and that is the intention of RJ, for a TV show the audience have to warm to her in order to care about her.  

IMHO the Moraine changes to make Moraine more accesible and centered in the show weakens the overall strength of the show.  The show seems to want to undermine all authority from the start instead of gradually revealing the weakness and doubt present. 

 

Borderlanders aren't disciplined soldiers but cartoonish, arrogant, and inept.  Warders are now emotional support dogs instead of barely constrained wolves. I call them warderdoodles. Aes Sedai are no longer mysterious and awe inducing.  Now they are just squabbling house wives of Tar Valon County.

 

I prefered Moraine icy and a bit scary.  It made her true character emerging all the more delicious. 

[Scarloc99]

41 minutes ago, Guire said:

IMHO the Moraine changes to make Moraine more accesible and centered in the show weakens the overall strength of the show.  The show seems to want to undermine all authority from the start instead of gradually revealing the weakness and doubt present. 

 

Borderlanders aren't disciplined soldiers but cartoonish, arrogant, and inept.  Warders are now emotional support dogs instead of barely constrained wolves. I call them warderdoodles. Aes Sedai are no longer mysterious and awe inducing.  Now they are just squabbling house wives of Tar Valon County.

 

I prefered Moraine icy and a bit scary.  It made her true character emerging all the more delicious. 

Bridgette, when she is made a warder, explains that is exactly what warders are meant to be. Elayne is shocked when she sees how Bridgette treats her, we don’t see it between Lan and Morraine but it is hinted at that Lan does act as that role, we just never see it because the other characters POV doesn’t see it. But it is there and after Bridgette’s bonding I have always read between the lines and seen it. 
 

Aes Sedai are shown to also be squabbling house wives of Tar Valon in the books, politicking against each other as much as trying to work to keep the land safe, and not just Black be the rest. In book 2 you start to see that and it becomes clearer in book 3. Now, could Rafe have held that reveal a little longer, maybe, but it is also important to show the divisions between the Ajah and within them so what comes later can be foreshadowed.

 

The border landers can be arrogant and inept. But the series didn’t show that, it showed an army organized and ready to fight to the last man to protect the rest of the land from an attacking trolloc army. It feels the whole thing would have been better pre covid, we would have better seen them fighting a lot better and got that sense of a strong army. But maybe I see that differently, I think if your trying to find negatives you will find far more then someone who tries to just enjoy it for what it is. It is strange I picked apart ROP in a way I didn’t WOT, and I have read both books and invested in the lore an equal

amount (wot more so). A friend of mine who has studied LOTR for his PHD and takes part in Tolkien lectures etc and understands the lore far more then I do told me after one episode, when I questioned a few things with him. Just enjoy it and stop nit picking, yes they have changed loads but enjoy the tv show for what it is and don’t worry about what is wrong because ultimately there are more important things in the world to worry about, I mean I struggle to do that still lol I mean, Isildur was alive when the rings where forged really and Sauron would have gone off into the wilderness and never been seen again, or been eaten by a big fish, if Galadrial hadn’t jumped off the boat to the grey havens lol. 
 

As a seperete point. I just don’t see how the characters as presented in book 1 are excitable to the viewer. If I am honest with myself when I first read eye of the world if I had not already bought the great hunt and dragon reborn I might have stopped there and gone to read a different series. I remember I had read the Thomas covenant series just before I read Eye of the world and found Eye hard to work through, not because it was a difficult read but because the characters where just so bland generic fantasy tropes seen in so many books. The colourful bard good with knives, the strong lad who doesn’t want to fight, the cheeky one who gets in trouble, the quiet reluctant hero, the enigmatic wizard and the silent strong warrior who can kill his way through anything, they where also frustrating in so many ways, and the story felt very generic for large parts.
 

I was on holiday with the 3 books for 2 weeks so I read them, and by the end of book 3 was happier I had but still a tv audience will not stick around for season 2 if season 1 doesn’t grab them so changes had to be made. 

Edited December 26, 2022 by Sir_Charrid

[Mailman]

8 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

In book 1 we learn very little about Morraine as a character because she has no POV chapters or even paragraphs. She keeps herself aloof, explains next to nothing to the other characters until the very end, and even then is limited in what she says. She makes it clear that all the boys the 2 women and herself are expendable, in fact if she had known who the Dragon is earlier I have no doubt she would have ignored Mat and Perrin when the group was split up and chased only after Rand. 

We only discover what you talk about in later books, or in the prequel, on the very first read through Morraine as a character is very one dimensional in book 1, in fact I remember on the first read through thinking she was just a crueler version of Gandalf there to ensure the party got to where they needed to in the story. It is later on as a character she gets more interesting, now, in the TV show, that book version of Morraine would have come across awfully on TV and viewers would have come to the end of season 1 thinking there was nothing sympathetic about her. The TV show has to approach things differently. You seem to think TV Morraine isn't focused, like that focus is a good charaxcter point, but, the fact is in book 1 it is the only character point. 

I have said it before but I will repeat it, had Robert Jordan written Eye of the World after books 4/5 had been written you would have had a different morraine being written, one more like you see in the TV show. That is where he moves to in writing her, in fact even the way she is written in New Spring is different to Eye of the World, and there is a clear reason for this. Robert Jordan wrote Eye of the World for book publishers, he knew the tropes and characterisation they wanted to see from a fantasy book in the late 80's early 90's and so he wrote that. He wrote a Lord of the Rings inspired piece because that was what he needed to to get published. Then, as the series progressed he subtly changed his writing style and in doing so also changed a number of characters and the way he presents them. But, the key thing about Morraine in book 1 is that we can't say we really know anything about her, and that is the intention of RJ, for a TV show the audience have to warm to her in order to care about her.  

That focus is Moiraine, it defines her for the entire series. Weakening that focus so early in the show is poor writing. You don't have to like the character for them to be a good character.

Edited December 26, 2022 by Mailman

[DojoToad]

3 hours ago, Guire said:

IMHO the Moraine changes to make Moraine more accesible and centered in the show weakens the overall strength of the show.  The show seems to want to undermine all authority from the start instead of gradually revealing the weakness and doubt present. 

 

Borderlanders aren't disciplined soldiers but cartoonish, arrogant, and inept.  Warders are now emotional support dogs instead of barely constrained wolves. I call them warderdoodles. Aes Sedai are no longer mysterious and awe inducing.  Now they are just squabbling house wives of Tar Valon County.

 

I prefered Moraine icy and a bit scary.  It made her true character emerging all the more delicious. 

Warderdoodles  🤣

[zacz1987]

On 12/25/2022 at 7:03 PM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

To play devils advocate in favour of the show one could argue that the show needed a quick way to show that Moiraine was sacrificing something in order to pursue her self imposed duty of finding the dragon reborn - and sacrificing romantic love is a clear way to do that rather than the more nebulous concept of sacrificing the opportunity to do a (non-specific) something instead.  

Honestly, I have said so before, but if they wanted Moiraine to be the main character they should have started the series with adapting New Spring. It could have started as a miniseries and would give us some background.

[Guire]

1 hour ago, zacz1987 said:

Honestly, I have said so before, but if they wanted Moiraine to be the main character they should have started the series with adapting New Spring. It could have started as a miniseries and would give us some background.

This I could really support.  My issue with fully revealed Moraine as lead is the perspectuve change.  We dont get a naive perspective giving us wonder and fear.  Then overcoming their naivety and moving mountains.  Instead we have kind of a jaded cop kind of story w 2 old detectives trying to overcome the slog and do right.

[KakitaOCU]

On 12/26/2022 at 2:23 PM, Guire said:

The show seems to want to undermine all authority from the start instead of gradually revealing the weakness and doubt present. 

The books do the same thing, the Village Council are immediately undermined by the Women's Circle who are immediately undermined by Moraine, who gets ignored or fought by the kids frequently.
 

On 12/26/2022 at 2:23 PM, Guire said:

Borderlanders aren't disciplined soldiers but cartoonish, arrogant, and inept

I didn't see cartoonish, they're arrogant in the books too.  As for inept, the battle for the gap was sloppy, but that was due to Covid more than anything.  I can give some forgiveness because it was a case of "Something will be put out, now figure it out or else."  So they do something simple and hope they can redeem later.
 

On 12/26/2022 at 2:23 PM, Guire said:

Warders are now emotional support dogs instead of barely constrained wolves. I call them warderdoodles.

This is nonsense and I really do start to take offense at this insistence that any man being sensitive or more than a brick wall with a sword is somehow failing the Gaidin.  If you know the books to compare then you KNOW the bond and the warders are not what Lan portrays in book 1.   Not even Lan is what Lan portrays in book 1.
 

On 12/26/2022 at 2:23 PM, Guire said:

Aes Sedai are no longer mysterious and awe inducing.  Now they are just squabbling house wives of Tar Valon County.

As they were in the books?  Maybe it comes from years of being a D&D player or maybe it's from reading Modesitt before Tolkien, but I NEVER took the Aes Sedai as mysterious and awe inducing, they were always just the magic users.  The infighting starts showing up at the beginning of Book 2 and gets worse progressively, so not sure what the complaint is supposed to be.