Foreshadowing ...

[expat]

If we are trying to be hyper technical on what could survive the breaking on the world, then we have to conclude that the book got it all wrong.  Nuclear waste from our age should have been scattered across much of the world, making many places uninhabitable due to radiation.

 

This is a fantasy.  Enjoy it (or not) for the presentation.  Digging too deeply into the details will always show issues that contradict the world building.

[Jsbrads2]

1 hour ago, expat said:

If we are trying to be hyper technical on what could survive the breaking on the world, then we have to conclude that the book got it all wrong.  Nuclear waste from our age should have been scattered across much of the world, making many places uninhabitable due to radiation.

 

This is a fantasy.  Enjoy it (or not) for the presentation.  Digging too deeply into the details will always show issues that contradict the world building.

It wasn’t an electricity based energy society. The standing waves were Saidin and Saidar. Their entire grid was powered by magic.

Nuclear facilities could have been decommissioned when the grid went from electric to magic. The most dangerous nuclear material are put in special containers and buried. A madman wouldn’t hunt for ancient nuclear sites that there are no longer any records of. 

[Skipp]

3 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

Actually, considering the varied ways the power works, I think it's entirely possible a city could remain intact. In fact, we see one that does....picked up and moved to the top of a mountain, but still intact, right down to its docks.  The Power doesn't have to be earthquakes only.  A weave that just kills every living thing in the city, including the channeler is completely likely to leave a city intact, and we know those weaves exist.

Of course it's rationalizing. It's much more rational to say "There could be a rational reason for this thing we see and here's a possible explanation," than it is to say, "There 100% is definitely no rational explanation for what we see and my understanding of what happened in the books absolutely proves that and there's no way I could be wrong or not seeing any possible explanation."

And it's more fun.

 

Thanks for saying this.  I was going to respond but it would have come out worse than what you wrote.

[expat]

Quote

Nuclear facilities could have been decommissioned when the grid went from electric to magic. The most dangerous nuclear material are put in special containers and buried. A madman wouldn’t hunt for ancient nuclear sites that there are no longer any records of. 

Waste from our nuclear plants have a half life of 4 billion years.  If it is impossible for a city sized area to remain undestroyed from earthquakes/mountain building, then by simple chance the destruction will damage some of the nuclear storage areas causing vast radiation issues. As the Wheel turns, the chances of the recurring breakings causing large uninhabitable regions increase drastically.  

 

If you don't like that problem, then here is another example that the whole concept of the Wheel of Time is impossible.  Oil and gas take millions of years to form.  The first version of our age removes all the easily found/pumped oil and gas reserves.  When the next version of our age comes around, there are no energy deposits.  You can also substitute other natural resources like rare metals.  Bottom line, our age can only happen once. 

 

The point isn't to knock the WOT, but we shouldn't get too hung up on minor implausible details.  The basic premise is so flawed that small details don't matter much.  Enjoy (or not) the world without thinking too deeply.  There is a reason its fantasy.

[Terry05]

10 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

Actually, considering the varied ways the power works, I think it's entirely possible a city could remain intact. In fact, we see one that does....picked up and moved to the top of a mountain, but still intact, right down to its docks.  The Power doesn't have to be earthquakes only.  A weave that just kills every living thing in the city, including the channeler is completely likely to leave a city intact, and we know those weaves exist.

Of course it's rationalizing. It's much more rational to say "There could be a rational reason for this thing we see and here's a possible explanation," than it is to say, "There 100% is definitely no rational explanation for what we see and my understanding of what happened in the books absolutely proves that and there's no way I could be wrong or not seeing any possible explanation."

And it's more fun.

It was definitely a great visual - had me reacting like that Leo DiCaprio meme from Once Upon a Time in Hollywood ?

[templar7]

16 hours ago, Ekoile said:

Regarding the Breaking, it's like Rand said in episode 8, "it's like puzzle pieces". We are only being given a few pieces at a time, and how, and in what order we get those pieces matters. That is to say, assuming the  conversation, from the flashback referenced at the start of this thread, refers to some kind of preemptive sealing away of the Dark One before the War of Power, while reasonable in isolation I believe to be incorrect. I have evidence.

 

It absolutely is. If we're talking foreshadowing, we also need to address the opening. I believe this is the correct place for this. I am surprised some one else hasn't brought this up. It's in 7 of the 8 episodes. These screen captures are from a youtube video of the opening.

First, note the threads in both the foreground and background, especially going off into the infinite distance. We are looking at The Wheel, in the process of weaving the Age Lace. We are seeing the very fabric of the pattern. Almost after this establishing shot, we get this roughly 5 second sequence.

Here, please note the surface along the bottom of the images. Threads, the Pattern. Note the slight wave, or ripple in the early images, that becomes flat again. 

 

A burst of light, or something, is coming through. Almost as if it were boring a hole. 

 

Also note, what to my eyes appears to be a female humanoid shape, with longish hair and a dress that are both blown back by the disruption. 

 

We are witnessing an event. In the opening credits of season 1.

Wow... Totally awesome post!

[DaddyFinn]

The intro sequence is a piece of art. ?

[VooDooNut]

17 hours ago, Ekoile said:

Regarding the Breaking, it's like Rand said in episode 8, "it's like puzzle pieces". We are only being given a few pieces at a time, and how, and in what order we get those pieces matters. That is to say, assuming the  conversation, from the flashback referenced at the start of this thread, refers to some kind of preemptive sealing away of the Dark One before the War of Power, while reasonable in isolation I believe to be incorrect. I have evidence.

 

It absolutely is. If we're talking foreshadowing, we also need to address the opening. I believe this is the correct place for this. I am surprised some one else hasn't brought this up. It's in 7 of the 8 episodes. These screen captures are from a youtube video of the opening.

First, note the threads in both the foreground and background, especially going off into the infinite distance. We are looking at The Wheel, in the process of weaving the Age Lace. We are seeing the very fabric of the pattern. Almost after this establishing shot, we get this roughly 5 second sequence.

Here, please note the surface along the bottom of the images. Threads, the Pattern. Note the slight wave, or ripple in the early images, that becomes flat again. 

 

A burst of light, or something, is coming through. Almost as if it were boring a hole. 

 

Also note, what to my eyes appears to be a female humanoid shape, with longish hair and a dress that are both blown back by the disruption. 

 

We are witnessing an event. In the opening credits of season 1.

I love this intro so much. Thanks for sharing your theory on what this moment is. I didn't even think to consider the it might be the bore being drilled, but it's interesting to view the golden threads as TDO's influence on the Pattern.

 

My theory is that the golden threads are channeled threads and every other thread is just regular part of the pattern. The explosion moment at the end signifying a real strong woman channeler weaving something into the pattern. I think the intro is more symbolic of how weaves effect the pattern than a literal viewing of TDO entering the pattern, especially because the golden threads are so bright and light, and I don't associate either of those descriptors with TDO. 

[DaddyFinn]

I interpreted the golden weaves as ta'veren because they appear and swirl around and into the Pattern as Josha's, Marcus' and Barney's names are shown

[VooDooNut]

49 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

I interpreted the golden weaves as ta'veren because they appear and swirl around and into the Pattern as Josha's, Marcus' and Barney's names are shown

Oh, this makes more sense. It also ties in with the idea of ta'veren being represented as sparks in the darkness, which fits this moment in the intro:

 

[DaddyFinn]

1 hour ago, VooDooNut said:

Oh, this makes more sense. It also ties in with the idea of ta'veren being represented as sparks in the darkness, which fits this moment in the intro:

 

It doesn't add up with Fain's words of "five ta'veren in the same village" but I'm still hoping he's wrong and it's just the boys.

[Scarloc99]

On 1/4/2022 at 4:49 PM, Jsbrads2 said:

It wasn’t an electricity based energy society. The standing waves were Saidin and Saidar. Their entire grid was powered by magic.

Nuclear facilities could have been decommissioned when the grid went from electric to magic. The most dangerous nuclear material are put in special containers and buried. A madman wouldn’t hunt for ancient nuclear sites that there are no longer any records of. 

This opens up a whole new can of worms when it comes to mining ?, imagine finding a lost horde of strange canisters, warm to touch. No idea what they have uncovered. 

Then again, people used to put radioactive substances on their skin, or swallow radioactive paint (painting UV reflectors that where radioactive, licking the brush between strokes for a point). 

The world has broken to a point that no one has a clue what radiation can do :). 

[Scarloc99]

On 1/4/2022 at 8:41 PM, expat said:

Waste from our nuclear plants have a half life of 4 billion years.  If it is impossible for a city sized area to remain undestroyed from earthquakes/mountain building, then by simple chance the destruction will damage some of the nuclear storage areas causing vast radiation issues. As the Wheel turns, the chances of the recurring breakings causing large uninhabitable regions increase drastically.  

 

If you don't like that problem, then here is another example that the whole concept of the Wheel of Time is impossible.  Oil and gas take millions of years to form.  The first version of our age removes all the easily found/pumped oil and gas reserves.  When the next version of our age comes around, there are no energy deposits.  You can also substitute other natural resources like rare metals.  Bottom line, our age can only happen once. 

 

The point isn't to knock the WOT, but we shouldn't get too hung up on minor implausible details.  The basic premise is so flawed that small details don't matter much.  Enjoy (or not) the world without thinking too deeply.  There is a reason its fantasy.

and I mean WHAT ABOUT THE DINOSAURS ? 

[WhiteVeils]

On 1/4/2022 at 9:31 PM, VooDooNut said:

I love this intro so much. Thanks for sharing your theory on what this moment is. I didn't even think to consider the it might be the bore being drilled, but it's interesting to view the golden threads as TDO's influence on the Pattern.

 

My theory is that the golden threads are channeled threads and every other thread is just regular part of the pattern. The explosion moment at the end signifying a real strong woman channeler weaving something into the pattern. I think the intro is more symbolic of how weaves effect the pattern than a literal viewing of TDO entering the pattern, especially because the golden threads are so bright and light, and I don't associate either of those descriptors with TDO. 

The golden threads aren't just Ta'veran. They're lives...in the end, they are all the lives of all the characters in the story.  As I posted earlier, they begin with three individual dots (the boys), quickly followed by 2 additional dots (Egwene and Nynaeve). Then there are a half dozen or more additional dots (more characters) and the golden threads immediately spring from all the dots, adding more and more golden threads. 

[Jsbrads2]

3 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

This opens up a whole new can of worms when it comes to mining ?, imagine finding a lost horde of strange canisters, warm to touch. No idea what they have uncovered. 

Then again, people used to put radioactive substances on their skin, or swallow radioactive paint (painting UV reflectors that where radioactive, licking the brush between strokes for a point). 

The world has broken to a point that no one has a clue what radiation can do :). 

Maybe not, but radiation ain’t good for you. Many people who used lots of radioactive creams and the like, suffered terribly. True, most people were getting trace amounts, because there was little cost to the suppliers who used very dilute amounts and a moderate cost to those manufacturers that used more. Those costs were enough to make radioactive products expensive, and thus most people used them sparingly. 

[Jsbrads2]

3 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

and I mean WHAT ABOUT THE DINOSAURS ? 

Nuclear waste containers can be buried much deeper, but there are some idea today of making even stronger than normal containers and dropping them in subduction zones in the ocean.

subduction zones are areas where the land goes down into the magma, everything melts, the rocks, and anything with the rocks, and any concentrated materials would dissipate throughout the magma and when it next forms a rock, it will produce so little radiation and be completely safe.

You can detect radiation from granite and Grand Central station in NYC, made of granite, is the most radioactive structure people use. It is even more radioactive than the working areas of a nuclear reactor. 

[Arie]

? Let's stay on topic! 

[Andra]

On 12/27/2021 at 10:37 AM, WhiteVeils said:

There could be a tiny pocket of non-utterly-broken spot somewhere remote.  For example, if these particular buildings are made of Cuendillar.  Lews Therrin's devastation of his home and family didn't even destroy the tapestries.  It all depends on how that particular spot was broken.

The problem with judging the extent of devastation to the world from the Breaking by that scene is that the Breaking had literally just started by then. 

As is explained in a scene with Loial, the sanctuary offered by the stedding to any male channeler extended the Breaking - by a lot.  But without it, the world may not have survived at all.

 

Given the implications of that, the idea that any city would have survived intact enough to leave those ruins seems highly improbable.  To say the least.

 

[Andra]

Regarding the ruins seen by Rand and Asmodean - it wasn't an entire city.  It was a few buildings and a dock.

I really don't think that can be described as an entire city surviving the Breaking.  Even tossed up onto a mountain.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Andra

[WhiteVeils]

7 hours ago, Andra said:

Regarding the ruins seen by Rand and Asmodean - it wasn't an entire city.  It was a few buildings and a dock.

I really don't think that can be described as an entire city surviving the Breaking.  Even tossed up onto a mountain.

It was so far up the mountain and so far away, we can't say exactly how much was up there. It wasn't shown.  It is absolutely within the range of individual interpretation how much city there was there and how much city there could be surviving anyplace in the entire world.  I understand that for your interpretation of how the breaking worked, it would be impossible for any city to be somewhat intact at the end of the Breaking.  But that is not the only interpretation of how 'broken' the world was.  Another reader is free to interpret differently.

[ArrylT]

That view was from 1 window going in 1 direction.   We have no idea what the other 3 cardinal points look like or how they would be seen post-breaking of the world.   In the end it is all subjective, personally I think that visual made for a good comparison pre/post breaking.   

 

 

[ArrylT]

Anyways here is a comment on foreshadowing from reddit

 

[Andra]

6 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

It was so far up the mountain and so far away, we can't say exactly how much was up there. It wasn't shown.  It is absolutely within the range of individual interpretation how much city there was there and how much city there could be surviving anyplace in the entire world.  I understand that for your interpretation of how the breaking worked, it would be impossible for any city to be somewhat intact at the end of the Breaking.  But that is not the only interpretation of how 'broken' the world was.  Another reader is free to interpret differently.

Except that what we ARE told of it is inconsistent with an entire surviving city.

"He could have sworn it was the remnants of shattered buildings, shining gray against the darker mountain, and stranger still, what appeared to be a dock made of the same material."

 

That isn't "somewhat intact."  It's remnants, and even the remnants are shattered.  It's the most intact relic of the AOL we hear of throughout the books that wasn't power-wrought.

 

And even it is far less intact than than the image mentioned.

[Skipp]

The funny thing about all of this is that all of the people I watched the show with didn't notice that they were buildings in episode 1.  They just thought they were rocky outcroppings until I pointed it out.

 

This is one of those things that Television is going to do compared to books.  If they can do a cool looking shot that is not consistent with the books they will probably do it because of the visual medium. Even better if it ultimately doesn't matter if it isn't exactly consistent with the books.

 

In the books we know some structures have survived the breaking. The buildings/docks Rand sees in tSR, Whitebridge is presumed to be from the AoL, The tower of Ghenji etc...  The show took an extra step to give us a nice bookmark between the cold open of episodes 1 and 8.

 

Not an exact comparison but in the Two Towers movie the Battle of helms deep is 1/3 of the run time more or less.  In the books it is a chapter/20 pages long.

[WhiteVeils]

19 hours ago, Andra said:

Except that what we ARE told of it is inconsistent with an entire surviving city.

"He could have sworn it was the remnants of shattered buildings, shining gray against the darker mountain, and stranger still, what appeared to be a dock made of the same material."

 

That isn't "somewhat intact."  It's remnants, and even the remnants are shattered.  It's the most intact relic of the AOL we hear of throughout the books that wasn't power-wrought.

 

And even it is far less intact than than the image mentioned.

That's all he saw from where he was. Not necessarily all that there was.  He was very far away.