The Seanchan

[DigificWriter]

@TheDreadReader is right. The scene with the Seanchan doesn't need or require proper context because it's designed to make general audiences go 'Okay, what does that mean?'.

 

Whether or not it worked as intended is apparently dependent on the mindset of the individual viewer, but the success or failure of audiences to come away from the scene asking questions doesn't negate the purpose behind including it.

[DreadParrot]

Let’s say this was strictly meant to get people curious and ask what just happened. How will this fit into the story once we do know? Cause I can’t conceive of a singular scenario where do we get more information and them attacked a nearly empty beach enriches the story. They could have completely plagiarized the fleet of ships from Moana landing and it would have made people talk. Also would have made no sense. Had they wiped out a village, washed it away from the face of the earth and planted a flag…that is something you can work with. This was completely pointless. Imagine the writers room…

 

writer: so we have brainstormed some ideas on setting up the Seanchan and decided we need to highlight just how formidable and dangerous they are. Any ideas?
 

writer 2: maybe show a ship being boarded and have an Aes Sedai on board who gets collared to foreshadow the damane and they pan back to show a massive fleet with hundreds of captive channelers propelling the ships with the one power?
 

writer 3: or we show a fleet approaching the incoming force and then a tidal wave wipes out the defending fleet, the seanchan never even break formation and we see them sail directly through the scant debris without slowing…

 

writer 4: we could just have them attack an empty beach with the tidal wave, but put a little girl on the beach so there is a witness. 
 

writer 2: how does that help the story…

 

writer 4: it will make people talk! 
 

director: well I’m sold. 
 

I hope someone can change my mind here, cause as it stands this KILLED show for me. 

[bryce0110]

  On 12/28/2021 at 7:48 PM, DreadParrot said:

Let’s say this was strictly meant to get people curious and ask what just happened. How will this fit into the story once we do know? Cause I can’t conceive of a singular scenario where do we get more information and them attacked a nearly empty beach enriches the story. They could have completely plagiarized the fleet of ships from Moana landing and it would have made people talk. Also would have made no sense. Had they wiped out a village, washed it away from the face of the earth and planted a flag…that is something you can work with. This was completely pointless. Imagine the writers room…

 

writer: so we have brainstormed some ideas on setting up the Seanchan and decided we need to highlight just how formidable and dangerous they are. Any ideas?
 

writer 2: maybe show a ship being boarded and have an Aes Sedai on board who gets collared to foreshadow the damane and they pan back to show a massive fleet with hundreds of captive channelers propelling the ships with the one power?
 

writer 3: or we show a fleet approaching the incoming force and then a tidal wave wipes out the defending fleet, the seanchan never even break formation and we see them sail directly through the scant debris without slowing…

 

writer 4: we could just have them attack an empty beach with the tidal wave, but put a little girl on the beach so there is a witness. 
 

writer 2: how does that help the story…

 

writer 4: it will make people talk! 
 

director: well I’m sold. 
 

I hope someone can change my mind here, cause as it stands this KILLED show for me. 

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I think it's an overreaction to say a single scene at the end of the season is enough to kill the show for you. It wasn't that bad of a scene, I liked it well enough.

 

The point of the scene was to showcase a strange new culture approaching from the west. Their entire look was intimidating, they had people on board being completely dehumanized and looking devoid of emotion (That one Damane girl on the left looked completely broken inside.) And then the scene of a tidal wave, with a shot of a little girl standing in front of it, was extremely intimidating.

 

I agree a village on the shore or seeing it from the perspective of some ship captain would have been a lot better, the scene is definitely not perfect, but as it is the scene serves the purpose of showcasing an intimidating army approaching from the west.

Edited December 28, 2021 by bryce0110

[Brytac]

  On 12/28/2021 at 4:52 PM, DigificWriter said:

@TheDreadReader is right. The scene with the Seanchan doesn't need or require proper context because it's designed to make general audiences go 'Okay, what does that mean?'.

 

 

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The 2 I know who are none book readers arnt talking about it.  They kinda shrugged and said whats all that about. 

 

Indifference as it meant nothing. 

 

It had no context, no clue about it...anything at all.  It just didnt do anything for them, it was irrelevant as part of WOTs1 and certainly nothing to say to a friend..'omg go watch WOT...the end is amazing'.

 

 

 

[DreadParrot]

  On 12/28/2021 at 8:13 PM, bryce0110 said:

I think it's an overreaction to say a single scene at the end of the season is enough to kill the show for you. It wasn't that bad of a scene, I liked it well enough.

 

The point of the scene was to showcase a strange new culture approaching from the west. Their entire look was intimidating, they had people on board being completely dehumanized and looking devoid of emotion (That one Damane girl on the left looked completely broken inside.) And then the scene of a tidal wave, with a shot of a little girl standing in front of it, was extremely intimidating.

 

I agree a village on the shore or seeing it from the perspective of some ship captain would have been a lot better, the scene is definitely not perfect, but as it is the scene serves the purpose of showcasing an intimidating army approaching from the west.

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I was badly wounded by several scenes, this was for me the coup de grace. Largely because they got so much right. They looked foreign and intimidating and terrifying. Then they threw it away for a completely pointless conclusion. I am struggling to think of an apt parallel. 
 

Spoiler for Game of thrones 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

imagine the Night King drags the dead dragon from the frozen lake after killing it. Hundreds of wights dragging impossibly long and powerful chains bring this massive awe inspiring monster from the depths and instead of reanimating it and getting the holy crap eye opening, they drop the chains and just leave the carcass in the ice, and walk away. 

 

[RextheDog]

without getting into all that, i really dislike the Seanchen....

 

i love it when rand serves them their own arses on a platter

[TheDreadReader]

  On 12/28/2021 at 8:26 PM, Brytac said:

The 2 I know who are none book readers arnt talking about it.  They kinda shrugged and said whats all that about. 

 

Indifference as it meant nothing. 

 

It had no context, no clue about it...anything at all.  It just didnt do anything for them, it was irrelevant as part of WOTs1 and certainly nothing to say to a friend..'omg go watch WOT...the end is amazing'.

 

 

 

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Then it didn't work for those two particular individuals.   The indifference of two individuals is just the indifference of two individuals.  

 

2 non-reader friends of mine were interested and asking questions about them.

 

2 indiiferent & 2 interested = zero net impact on the big picture.

 

Regardless, tv writers tend to know their business.  And, a simple teaser at the end of an episode is one of the common tools of the trade.  That's pretty much all it is.

 

 

[WhiteVeils]

Obviously, they didn't show it washing away a village because it's harder to CGI a village and a giant wave than just a giant wave. This was one tiny strip of shoreline, with the ends blocked off by rocks on either side, so we didn't see what lay beyond it to the north or south.  The wave was way longer than this small patch of beach.  There could be a giant city north or south and we wouldn't know.  For all we know this is within sight of Falme and they are making a big intimidating display.  Or maybe they will create a stationary standing wave that will let them land their fleet on top of the cliffs to come in from an unexpected angle.   We don't know.

[Mirefox]

Since they seem to be using apocalyptic destruction to decimate what is in their path, I have to assume next season we will see them sweeping through the world like a plague, right?  It seems they are no longer interested in a Return so much as an annihilating.  But then again, silly me for looking for any kind of internal logic or consistency.  

[DigificWriter]

  On 12/28/2021 at 8:26 PM, Brytac said:

The 2 I know who are none book readers arnt talking about it.  They kinda shrugged and said whats all that about. 

 

Indifference as it meant nothing. 

 

It had no context, no clue about it...anything at all.  It just didnt do anything for them, it was irrelevant as part of WOTs1 and certainly nothing to say to a friend..'omg go watch WOT...the end is amazing'.

 

 

 

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Like I said earlier (in the part of my post you didn't quote), the success or failure of audiences to come away from the scene asking questions doesn't negate the purpose behind including it.

[SingleMort]

  On 12/28/2021 at 10:34 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

Like I said earlier (in the part of my post you didn't quote), the success or failure of audiences to come away from the scene asking questions doesn't negate the purpose behind including it.

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I think the problem is that the level of success is generated not just by the mystery but by a level of understanding and excitement or anticipation at what the scene implies. 

 

I honestly didn't even think about this when I started this thread because (as a book reader) I just immediately thought "oh that's the Seanchan invasion but what are they attacking?" But someone who hasn't read the books might just look at the same scene and think "oh there's some people in a boat...neat" I can't say for sure but I think if you show more clearly this is an invasion from a foreign armada the scene would carry a lot more weight and a generate a lot more interest/questions among the non book audience. 

[ForsakenPotato]

Too early for me to tell if I like the TV Seanchan, but just wanted to say I think the backs of their armor was where I saw the insect inspiration -- the shape and overlapping metal reminded me of the body of a wasp. Thought it looked pretty cool!

 

I think the show people probably knew they would remove the chains on the collars (imho didn't even seem practical in the books), but then if the chain is gone it's just a woman with a bracelet and a women with a necklace at which isn't alarming. Being gagged, chained, or caged are clear demonstrations that someone is captive and treated as property. The gag instantly shows that something is very wrong while still allowing all the Seanchan characters to move unencumbered in battle, which is smart. My only concern with the approach is they need to come up with an explanation for what happens at mealtime.

Edited December 29, 2021 by ForsakenPotato
typos

[Skipp]

  On 12/29/2021 at 12:50 AM, ForsakenPotato said:

Too early for me to tell if I like the TV Seanchan, but just wanted to say I think the backs of their armor was where I saw the insect inspiration -- the shape and overlapping metal reminded me of the body of a wasp. Thought it looked pretty cool!

 

I think the show people probably knew they would remove the chains on the collars (imho didn't even seem practical in the books), but then if the chain is gone it's just a woman with a bracelet and a women with a necklace at which isn't alarming. Being gagged, chained, or caged are clear demonstrations that someone is captive and treated as property. The gag instantly shows that something is very wrong while still allowing all the Seanchan characters to move unencumbered in battle, which is smart. My only concern with the approach is they need to come up with an explanation for what happens at mealtime.

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I am thinking that the Gag isn't part of the a'dam.  The shoulder/collar pieces have something engraved on them that seems to match the bracelet the Sul'Dam wear.  I presume the gag is just there to keep the dehumanizing factor in play.  After all a Damane doesn't need their hands or tongue to perform their duties.

[ForsakenPotato]

Oh thanks @Skipp, yeah that also makes sense. So the gag takes the place of the chain -- it's symbolic of their position and helplessness, but it's not, as they say, where the magic happens.

[notpropaganda73]

My issue with this scene really sums up the whole first series - it's a gaping missed opportunity. They had already set up Maigan going west in episode 6 to investigate the rumours. Why not use her viewpoint to then introduce the Seanchan? Maigan being captured by the Seanchan, or even just witnessing the (completely random) display of the One Power, would have added much more to the scene.

 

My preference would have been to show the Seanchan taking a town, capturing a female channeler/chaining them with an a'dam (preferably Maigan), and the camera panning out to show the ships in the harbour. 

 

As it is, everyone is left going "what?" There isn't even any real suspense or dread from the scene, they just look sort of exotic and used the OP to create a tsunami for some reason. So what? 

 

 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

  On 12/27/2021 at 8:52 PM, DigificWriter said:

The gold-plated pacifier gags add a much different connotation to the Seanchan culture of slavery and make it more unsettling and disturbing because they imply a deeper level of subservience and dehumanization than collars and physical leashes ever could.

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In the books they actually think of damane as non-humans, animals, to the extent that the idea of a person wanting to have sex with them is treated with the same repugnance as we treat bestiality or pedophilia - they consider that a right thinking person should not be capable of thinking of them as an adult human sex partner.  If this is a visual way of trying to convey that level of dehumanisation I am for it.  

[TheDreadReader]

  On 12/29/2021 at 11:44 AM, notpropaganda73 said:

My issue with this scene really sums up the whole first series - it's a gaping missed opportunity. They had already set up Maigan going west in episode 6 to investigate the rumours. Why not use her viewpoint to then introduce the Seanchan? Maigan being captured by the Seanchan, or even just witnessing the (completely random) display of the One Power, would have added much more to the scene.

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Maigain would have cost more money and may not have added much value.

 

 

 

  On 12/29/2021 at 11:44 AM, notpropaganda73 said:

My preference would have been to show the Seanchan taking a town, capturing a female channeler/chaining them with an a'dam (preferably Maigan), and the camera panning out to show the ships in the harbour. 

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All of which can either be shown or implied in season 2.

 

 

  On 12/29/2021 at 11:44 AM, notpropaganda73 said:

As it is, everyone is left going "what?" There isn't even any real suspense or dread from the scene, they just look sort of exotic and used the OP to create a tsunami for some reason. So what? 

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There doesn't have to be any suspense or dread from the scene.  It is just teasing something to come later.

 

Sometimes less is more.  

 

[SingleMort]

  On 12/29/2021 at 3:02 PM, TheDreadReader said:

All of which can either be shown or implied in season 2

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That's true it can, but then they could have pushed the whole Seanchan introduction to season 2 as well. It wasn't exactly needed this season and didn't really connect to anything else. Think that's why people keep referring to it as a "post credit scene" even though it's not. I actually wonder if it might have worked better as bonus material or part of a teaser for season 2.

[notpropaganda73]

  On 12/29/2021 at 3:02 PM, TheDreadReader said:

Sometimes less is more.  

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I'm sorry, but it's a consistent issue in S1 where they just show things that book readers know without any in-show context for it. Imo it doesn't function as a good tease because there is no context. If the tease is just to leave everyone going "Wtf" then it works, but why should anyone care? Who are they? It reminds me of when Thanos appears as a tease in the MCU, I think after Age of Ultron, and says "alright, I'll do it myself". That's an exciting tease for comic book fans, but I had no idea who he was, and the line itself implies he was in the background controlling everything, which just wasn't the case later on. That tease didn't work for me either because I didn't care about this randomer I had no connection to or context for (at the time). 

 

I'm sure it worked for some people but really I just think it's a bad attempt at even teasing the Seanchan. Why are they creating a tsunami with the OP? It makes zero sense. Why not reduce the budget for this weird display and use it instead for getting the actress playing Maigan in for another scene, seeing as we're so concerned about the pennies here. 

 

There are too many legit criticisms of S1 that get waved away as "that can be addressed later". I have enjoyed enough of S1 to be optimistic going forward but at some point we have to actually take the scenes we are shown on their merits. It was a bad tease imo and as I said it summed up a lot of issues throughout the season for me. I hope they end up course correcting and carrying on with the Thanos comparison, if we get anything close to Infinity War and Endgame I'll be delighted. But we can still criticise the scene as it stands.

[TheDreadReader]

  On 12/29/2021 at 3:16 PM, SingleMort said:

That's true it can, but then they could have pushed the whole Seanchan introduction to season 2 as well. It wasn't exactly needed this season and didn't really connect to anything else. Think that's why people keep referring to it as a "post credit scene" even though it's not. I actually wonder if it might have worked better as bonus material or part of a teaser for season 2.

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They haven't introduced the Seanchan.   They teased the Seanchan.  

 

[TheDreadReader]

  On 12/29/2021 at 3:17 PM, notpropaganda73 said:

 

I'm sorry, but it's a consistent issue in S1 where they just show things that book readers know without any in-show context for it. Imo it doesn't function as a good tease because there is no context. If the tease is just to leave everyone going "Wtf" then it works, but why should anyone care? Who are they? It reminds me of when Thanos appears as a tease in the MCU, I think after Age of Ultron, and says "alright, I'll do it myself". That's an exciting tease for comic book fans, but I had no idea who he was, and the line itself implies he was in the background controlling everything, which just wasn't the case later on. That tease didn't work for me either because I didn't care about this randomer I had no connection to or context for (at the time). 

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MCU does a teaser scene.  The MCU fandom then does a bunch of videos talking about the teaser scene.   It becomes part of the hype cycle.   It a basic part marketing series/films these days.

 

 

  On 12/29/2021 at 3:17 PM, notpropaganda73 said:

I'm sure it worked for some people but really I just think it's a bad attempt at even teasing the Seanchan.

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To me that is like complaining that a teaser trailer is not a narratively complete story.  It isn't designed to be nor is it expected to be.

 

 

  On 12/29/2021 at 3:17 PM, notpropaganda73 said:

Why are they creating a tsunami with the OP? It makes zero sense.

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You can spend five minutes thinking about it and come up with a few logical explanations.  

 

I've already said that to me it looks to be a magical equivalent of doing a naval bombardment before conducting a landing.  It takes only a few minutes to think about the effects of that wave would be on the shoreline and how that might be leveraged. 

 

I saw another possible explanation on twitter last night where they were suggesting that maybe the wave was designed to carry the ships to the top of the cliffs to create a burn the ships kind of moment. Personally, I don't see that.... but it is another quick logical explanation for why they would set up a wave like that.

 

So, possible logical explanations exist.  The fact that they exist are evidence that the "teasing" function worked in part.

 

Whether you like those explanations is a different question than whether it makes sense or not.

 

  On 12/29/2021 at 3:17 PM, notpropaganda73 said:

 

 

Why not reduce the budget for this weird display and use it instead for getting the actress playing Maigan in for another scene, seeing as we're so concerned about the pennies here. 

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Why incur the costs of bringing in a minor role that may never be seen again in this scene?

 

It's a teaser.  It is not a entire narrative arc.  It can fit into a narrative arc but as it is presented at this time it is not yet one.

 

 

  On 12/29/2021 at 3:17 PM, notpropaganda73 said:

There are too many legit criticisms of S1 that get waved away as "that can be addressed later".

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There certainly are legit criticisms.  But, not all criticisms make equal sense.  Sometimes, you have to view the scene in question based what it is functionally trying to do.   In this case, teasing the Seanchan is directly implying "this will be addressed later" and it will be important.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2021 by TheDreadReader

[SingleMort]

  On 12/29/2021 at 3:25 PM, TheDreadReader said:

 

They haven't introduced the Seanchan.   They teased the Seanchan.  

 

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Lol okay if you want to split hairs over it. Allow me to rephrase to *shown the Seanchan

[notpropaganda73]

  On 12/29/2021 at 3:51 PM, TheDreadReader said:

 

MCU does a teaser scene.  The MCU fandom then does a bunch of videos talking about the teaser scene.   It becomes part of the hype cycle.   It a basic part marketing series/films these days.

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We fundamentally disagree on this and that's ok, but the best MCU teasers are ones that use something from the movie we have just seen, or has some link to other characters or events we are aware of if we've been following the other movies. 

 

Simply dropping in a scene like this without any other links to the world we have been watching for 8 episodes does not succeed as a teaser for anything, imo. 

[ArrylT]

Just a couple portions from the Seanchan attack on Ebou Dar

 

Using spoilers due to volume of text

 

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About to turn away, he realized almost no one was moving. The docks usually bustled, yet on every ship he could see, crewmen lined the rails and had climbed into the rigging to stare toward the bay. Barrels and crates stood abandoned while shirtless men and wiry women in green leather vests crowded together at the ends of the docks to peer between the ships, south, toward the thunder. Down that way, black smoke rose in thick towering columns, slanting sharply north on the wind.

Hesitating only a moment, he trotted out along the nearest dock. At first, ships tied to the long fingers of stone to the south blocked his view of anything except the smoke. Because of the way the shoreline lay, though, each dock stuck out farther than the next down; once he pushed into the murmuring crowd at the end, the broad river made an open path of choppy green water to the wave-tossed bay.

At least two dozen ships were burning out on the wide expanse of the bay, maybe more, engulfed in flame from end to end. A number of others had already settled, only a bow or stern still above water and that sliding under. Even as he looked, the bow of a broad two-masted ship flying a large banner of red and blue and gold, the banner of Altara, suddenly flew apart with a roar, a boom like thunder, and fast-thickening tendrils of smoke wafted away on the wind as the vessel began settling by the head. Hundreds of vessels were in motion, every craft in the bay, three-masted Sea Folk rakers and skimmers and two-masted soarers, coastal ships with their triangular sails, riverships under sail or sweep, some fleeing upriver, most trying to beat out to sea. Scores of other ships swanned into the bay before the wind, great bluff-bowed vessels as tall as any of the rakers, crashing through the rolling waves, throwing aside spray. His breath caught as he suddenly made out square, ribbed sails.

“Blood and bloody ashes,” he muttered in shock. “It’s the flaming Seanchan!”

 

and

 

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The Seanchan were not the only reason everyone else had gotten out of sight. At the other end of the street, a good hundred mounted men swung long-pointed lances down. They wore baggy white breeches and green coats, and the gold cords on the officer’s helmet glittered. With a collective shout, a hundred or more of Tylin’s soldiers hurled themselves toward the city’s attackers. They outnumbered the Seanchan in front of them by at least two to one.

“Bloody fools,” Mat muttered. “Not like that. That sul’dam will—”

The only movement among the Seanchan was the woman in the lightning-marked dress raising her hand to point, as one might launch a hawk, or send off a hound. The golden-haired woman at the other end of the silvery leash took a small step forward. The foxhead medallion cooled against his chest.

Underneath the head of the Ebou Dari charge, the street suddenly erupted, paving stones and men and horses flying into the air with a deafening roar. The concussion knocked Mat flat on his back, or maybe it was the way the ground seemed to leap from under his feet. He pulled himself up in time to see the front of an inn across the way suddenly collapse into the street in a cloud of dust, exposing the rooms within.

 

Men and horses lay everywhere, pieces of men and horses, those still alive thrashing, around a hole in the ground half as wide as the street. Screams from the wounded filled the air. Fewer than half the Ebou Dari staggered to their feet, dazed and stumbling. Some seized up the reins of horses as wobbly-legged as they, heaving themselves into saddles, kicking the animals into some semblance of a run. Others just ran afoot. All away from the Seanchan. Steel they could face, but not this.

Running, Mat realized, seemed a particularly fine idea right then. A glance back down the alley showed dust and rubble piled at least a story high. He darted down the street ahead of the fleeing Ebou Dari, keeping as close to the walls as possible, hoping none of the Seanchan would think he was one of Tylin’s soldiers. He should never have worn a green coat.

The sul’dam apparently was not satisfied. The foxhead went cool again, and from behind another roar hammered him to the pavement, pavement that jumped up to meet him. Through the ringing in his ears, he heard masonry groan. Above him, the white-plastered brick wall began leaning outward.

“What happened to my bloody luck?” he shouted. He had time for that. And just time to realize, as brick and timbers crashed down on him, that the dice in his head had just stopped dead.

 

Basically evidence that the Seanchan were willing to use tactics that could/would hurt innocent civilians during assault.  Because until they had sworn the oaths ... 

 

Also, as an fyi according to the WOT Wiki

 

The Ever Victorious Army is a reference to an imperial army in 19th century China.

 

So it makes sense that the navy has a similar look to Chinese Junks

 

And according to the books themselves

 

A typical Seanchan soldier wears a uniform of red, green and gold painted steel plates and dark leather (Great Hunt Chp 29).

 

As for the idea that the tidal wave was meant as a warning shot - very possible.  They used this to force Bayle Domon to let them board:

 

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Domon had no intention of meeting any Seanchan, if he could avoid it.

He was raising the glass to see what he could make out on the nearing Seanchan decks, when, with a roar, the surface of the sea broke into fountaining water and flame not a hundred paces from his larboard side. Before he had even begun to gape, another column of flame split the sea on the other side, and as he was spinning to stare at that, another burst up ahead. The eruptions died as quickly as they were born, spray from them blown across the deck. Where they had been, the sea bubbled and steamed as if boiling.

“We . . . we’ll reach shallow water before they can close with us,” Yarin said slowly. He seemed to be trying not to look at the water roiling under clouds of mist.

Domon shook his head. “Whatever they did, they can shatter us, even do I take her into the breakers.” He shivered, thinking of the flame inside the fountains of water, and his holds full of fireworks. “Fortune prick me, we might no live to drown.” He tugged at his beard and rubbed his bare upper lip, reluctant to give the order—the vessel and what it contained were all he had in the world—but finally he made himself speak. “Bring her into the wind, Yarin, and down sail. Quickly, man, quickly! Before they do think we still try to escape.”

 

 

Basically everything from the brief glimpse of the Seanchan shown suggests, imho, that the show has done them very very well.

 

I underlined a certain sentence that could serve as a reminder that even when we do not expect it, the show takes stuff from the books and places it in episodes we do not expect. ?

Edited December 30, 2021 by ArrylT

[Jaysen Gore]

  On 12/28/2021 at 10:03 PM, Mirefox said:

Since they seem to be using apocalyptic destruction to decimate what is in their path, I have to assume next season we will see them sweeping through the world like a plague, right?  It seems they are no longer interested in a Return so much as an annihilating.  But then again, silly me for looking for any kind of internal logic or consistency.  

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Nah, I could still see them taking a more rational approach once a foothold is established. This was basically just clearing the beaches at Normandy, and doesn't necessarily mean an immediate push for Berlin. They have no idea what the state of the world is in Randland, and aren't going to be subtle while they are vulnerable on their ships.