Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[orbops]

On 12/24/2021 at 9:29 AM, orbops said:

8 seasons is a pipe dream. Look at The Expanse - Amazon is only doing 6 seasons of which 3 are their own. And that's with Bezos actively wanting that show. I think the best we can expect is 4-6 seasons. 

 

On 12/24/2021 at 9:38 AM, DigificWriter said:

@orbops Amazon is very happy with the show, so 8 seasons is entirely doable.

DigificWriter - You misquoted me. See top quote for my thoughts...

[Ryrin]

On 12/23/2021 at 5:37 PM, Arthellion said:

I just feel empty inside right now.

 

I really enjoyed elements of this show. I loved the cast.

 

But....Rafe just fundamentally understands this show in a different way than I do. I wanted to liked this show. I really did. I loved seeing Beltine. I loved seeing Tigraine be BA.

 

I love all the actors.

 

But the story. It's just not the story I love. And I get sick thinking about it right now. I'll be fine and move on. Life doesn't revolve around fictional stories after all. But there is an element of grief at the moment.

 

*sigh*

 

Peace friends. I"m done. I can't put myself through this for another season. 

 

 

I thought Beltine was strange with those Japanese lanterns and the focus on death. 
 

 

[TheSmurf]

8 hours ago, Dead Warder said:

Nope. I have the dumb.

The dumb is shared. Still dumb, just not alone ?

[SingleMort]

5 hours ago, Ryrin said:

I thought Beltine was strange with those Japanese lanterns and the focus on death. 
 

 

I agree. One the one hand I thought the visuals were nice and the actor playing Tam gave an very moving performance given how little screentime he had. But overall scenes at the Two Rivers felt too sombre to me. Maybe they thought it would be too corny or unrealistic to do but I thought the village should be this idyllic place (similar to the Shire in LoTR) where nothing really bad happens and even though people like Cenn Buie and the Coplins gossip and are a bit narrow-minded that's really the worse that's going on. The village felt sheltered from the evils of the wider world, which is why it was so sad when those evils found them at the start of EotW. We needed to see more of the unbridled joy and carefree lifestyles of those people before it was all taken away from them IMO.   

[Hobo]

38 minutes ago, TheSmurf said:

The dumb is shared. Still dumb, just not alone ?

Indeed. But as too the original question,  means "fire", it says it next to it, which i hear is what all the hip young people say instead of cool.

 

?.. nevermind that i cant seem to get rid of it... Anyways, moving on.. i can only guess at, but in Aus it usually isn't a bad thing when someone calls you a 'Orse

[Weird_Old_Lady]

15 minutes ago, Dead Warder said:

Much appreciated ?. Not only do I have the dumb, but I have the old.

Yeah I have both of those too. And my dad whispered the word 'eccentric' about me at Christmas. ??‍♀️?

 

The mystery of Bela remains for now a mystery.....

[ilovezam]

On 12/24/2021 at 9:37 AM, Arthellion said:

I just feel empty inside right now.

 

I really enjoyed elements of this show. I loved the cast.

 

But....Rafe just fundamentally understands this show in a different way than I do. I wanted to liked this show. I really did. I loved seeing Beltine. I loved seeing Tigraine be BA.

 

I love all the actors.

 

But the story. It's just not the story I love. And I get sick thinking about it right now. I'll be fine and move on. Life doesn't revolve around fictional stories after all. But there is an element of grief at the moment.

 

*sigh*

 

Peace friends. I"m done. I can't put myself through this for another season. 

 

 

I feel you man. I did not expect to be so attached to this show being good, but after the finale I just felt a sinking feeling of grief. It could have been so great, but Rafe seems hell bent in modifying the story with a weird misandrist twist. Turning competent, good men less so (Agelmar, LTT now arrogant idiots, Lan significantly less competent, even Nynaeve is a better tracker), is NOT feminism. A feminist female YouTuber suggests exactly that 

 

It's totally great to elevate the importance of some of the women. I love awesome female characters. But that's no reason to dumb down the male characters, and take their moments away, especially if they're literally the protagonist.

[Mirefox]

We are all probably aware of Brandon Sanderson’s role as a (seemingly oft ignored) advisor on the first six episodes but I’m curious as to how all that changes should the show make it to the books that he actually wrote.  Will the snow runners consider him a stronger source?  Will he be more particular about fidelity to his writings?  

[Mirefox]

1 hour ago, SingleMort said:

I agree. One the one hand I thought the visuals were nice and the actor playing Tam gave an very moving performance given how little screentime he had. But overall scenes at the Two Rivers felt too sombre to me. Maybe they thought it would be too corny or unrealistic to do but I thought the village should be this idyllic place (similar to the Shire in LoTR) where nothing really bad happens and even though people like Cenn Buie and the Coplins gossip and are a bit narrow-minded that's really the worse that's going on. The village felt sheltered from the evils of the wider world, which is why it was so sad when those evils found them at the start of EotW. We needed to see more of the unbridled joy and carefree lifestyles of those people before it was all taken away from them IMO.   

Absolutely.  Mirroring that is the innocence of youth we see in the E5 in the books.  Mat is a prankster but that’s about it.  The highlight of Rand’s relationship with Eg is dancing with her. I was so turned off to this show almost immediately when we saw Rand sleeping with Eg, seemingly with a wink from her parents and Matt actually stealing valuables from the community to sell.  Matt is not saint and Rand is no puritan, but in the books that os a result of leaving EF and discovering the world; it is part of their character development and growth.

[Mirefox]

Small question:  did it bug anyone that Perrin already has a beard?

[Skipp]

2 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Small question:  did it bug anyone that Perrin already has a beard?

Not really as him growing a beard wasn't ever central to his character arc, it was just how Faile liked her men. 

 

My assumption is that they introduced men having bears as a parallel to women braiding their hair.  Which is another thing that separated Rand from the TR folk because maybe Aiel can't grow beards.

 

No direct evidence to support this but it seemed all adult men in the TR wore beards.

[Ralph]

2 hours ago, Hobo said:

Indeed. But as too the original question,  means "fire", it says it next to it, which i hear is what all the hip young people say instead of cool.

 

?

I thought a flaming sword to indicate an attack or similar

[Skipp]

6 minutes ago, Ralph said:

I thought a flaming sword to indicate an attack or similar

My personal reference is to NBA JAM  "HE'S HEATING UP" "HE'S ON FIRE"

[fra85uk]

Time for a proper review of the season.

 

Let's start from characters.

 

Rating will be divided between acting and adaptation of the characters.

 

Here we go

 

Moiraine

Acting: 8/10 Pike is a great actress indeed and she has a central role in the series (more than in books). Manetheren speech was good (it is very difficult to do such a thing on a tv show) but she was solid overall even if there is no a single scene standing out. 

Adaptation: 5.5/10 While the character is essentially there, she is not mysterious as the book counterpart i.e. "hey guys, one of you is the Dragon, deal with it" or appears as intelligent.

 

Lan

Acting: 7/10 He is credible as Lan, do a solid job but nothing more than that to praise him. 

Adaptation: 2/10 This is where Rafe view starts making disasters. Of course, Lan is a stoic character but stoicism=toxic masculinity, so here comes the new Lan who is basically another person. And of course in no way it appears that he should be  the best of the best.

 

 

Rand

Acting: 6/10 He has written Rand Al'Thor all over him but the chances to shine, as a side-character, have been slim. 

Adaptation: 4/10 He is not butchered like the other two EF guys: as in the books also in the show he is the good and humble guy who wants a normal life but in the show he is deprived of all his moments and they have completely destroyed the struggle to accept who he really is.

 

Mat

Acting: 9/10 An excellent performance by a talented actor who unfortunately left the show. His character is not the book one but he is credible and delivers the perfect emotional balance for a character doing bad things (robbing the dead!) but caring for his sisters.

Adaptation: 0/10 He is a made-up character sharing only the name with the book Mat.

 

 

Perrin

Acting: 4/10 If there was an Oscar for staying with the mouth open, he would win it. I am not giving less only because i feel this character has been so butchered that no acting could save him.

Adaptation: 0/10 Killed his made-up wife, stayed with mouth open, enjoyed vegan cousine, fought over Egwene.

 

Egwene

Acting: 2/10 The weakest performer of the main cast, I really don't like her acting.

Adaptation: 0/10 How to transform a brilliant and ambitious young girl that however is still a rookie and naive in a Mary-sue. Well done Rafe.

 

Nynaeve

Acting: 7.5/10 She is really charismatic and a credible Nynaeve,  well  done by her.

Adaptation: 0/10 How to transform a great multifaceted character in a Mary-sue. Well done Rafe.

Edited December 26, 2021 by fra85uk

[Hobo]

42 minutes ago, Ralph said:

I thought a flaming sword to indicate an attack or similar

It may well be, i was just putting two and two together. I hear it alot lately, people saying "thats fire". I think it sounds ridiculous. 

[AdamF70]

I have been hoping and praying for the Wheel of Time series of books to be made into a film or TV series and now we have it!!

I'm absolutely devastated by what the writers have done to the story. I'm not saying it's rubbish because it isn't, if I hadn't read the books several times and know the story inside out I'm sure I would be loving it BUT, with that said I'm left feeling the TV series has left so much out and jumped ahead in the story I think if they continue to get commissioned the story will really suffer later and just get further away from the truth of the books.

 

I hope they employ new writers or just get the current ones to follow the original story lines closer.

 

I know it sounds overly dramatic but it's heartbreaking to watch.

[Lethira the second]

4 hours ago, Mirefox said:

We are all probably aware of Brandon Sanderson’s role as a (seemingly oft ignored) advisor on the first six episodes but I’m curious as to how all that changes should the show make it to the books that he actually wrote.  Will the snow runners consider him a stronger source?  Will he be more particular about fidelity to his writings?  

 

It seems pretty clear that both Brandon Sanderson and Harriets involvement is limited to advising on the scripts.  They don't have the power of veto, all they are able to do is make suggestions.  Whether or not those suggestions are acted upon falls ultimately on Rafes shoulders.

 

I firmly believe Rafe and his team believe they are making a decent show -and there are a lot of people who are enjoying it!  Personally, I disagree and am disappointed that what I thought would be an adaptation of my favourite series ended up straying massively from the source material

[EmreY]

I had three main concerns about an adaptation of the WoT: the eventually godlike powers of the main character, the actor portraying him, and the source material.

 

I am impressed with Josha Stradowski, much more than @fra85uk above.  He does well with the role allotted to him, and his vocal shading I found impressive in the final episode.  My worries are much diminished; this young man could complain about not liking sand and you might think that it was an interesting comment to make.

 

The second fear I had was the initial build-up would be too strong.  In the written text, Rand becomes overpowered at the end of Book 1, then there's the explanation that his access and control are variable (which I found weak) and the young adult angst (which I have rarely encountered in prodigies) as an explanation of why he doesn't steamroll through half the kingdoms on earth before he starts going mad, and then of course he finally starts to go loopy, which is an excellent reason to dampen his channelling to bare essentials.  As it was, it is an even slower start than I hoped, and though I know a lot of people were looking forward to him dispatching Forsaken and pounding the earth and stuff, I'm very happy with where things are now.  And I am even happier, considering that the endings of Books 2 and 3 are also Big Bangs.  Less is sometimes more.

 

The third fear was the source material.  The WOT is an incredibly ambitious book series, with more named characters than the Bible and running at about six times the length.  But WoT is not quite (!) as culturally significant.  (And a good re-write would have been nice.)  My fear was that the writers could not translate the bare minimum and prune away the relatively unnecessary.  This fear proved unfounded.  However, the show writers could do with some discipline, because there is no time to introduce filler material of their own.

 

I also wonder whether if any of our adaptations in our minds' eyes would have worked within the constraints of the viewing time and probable number of episodes.

[Chivalry]

4 hours ago, Mirefox said:

Small question:  did it bug anyone that Perrin already has a beard?

 

I was more bothered by the fact that he doesn't have a job. 

[JaimAybara]

4 hours ago, Mirefox said:

Small question:  did it bug anyone that Perrin already has a beard?

That he had a beard? Yes. That it was a bad beard? Also, yes. 

Edited December 26, 2021 by JaimAybara

[EmreY]

4 hours ago, Mirefox said:

Small question:  did it bug anyone that Perrin already has a beard?

 

Much less than Aragorn having one.

[WoTwasThat]

5 hours ago, ilovezam said:

I feel you man. I did not expect to be so attached to this show being good, but after the finale I just felt a sinking feeling of grief. It could have been so great, but Rafe seems hell bent in modifying the story with a weird misandrist twist. Turning competent, good men less so (Agelmar, LTT now arrogant idiots, Lan significantly less competent, even Nynaeve is a better tracker), is NOT feminism. A feminist female YouTuber suggests exactly that 

 

It's totally great to elevate the importance of some of the women. I love awesome female characters. But that's no reason to dumb down the male characters, and take their moments away, especially if they're literally the protagonist.

Man, exactly this. It feels deliberate. 

[Mailman]

6 hours ago, fra85uk said:

Time for a proper review of the season.

 

Let's start from characters.

 

Rating will be divided between acting and adaptation of the characters.

 

Here we go

 

Moiraine

Acting: 8/10 Pike is a great actress indeed and she has a central role in the series (more than in books). Manetheren speech was good (it is very difficult to do such a thing on a tv show) but she was solid overall even if there is no a single scene standing out. 

Adaptation: 5.5/10 While the character is essentially there, she is not mysterious as the book counterpart i.e. "hey guys, one of you is the Dragon, deal with it" or appears as intelligent.

 

Lan

Acting: 7/10 He is credible as Lan, do a solid job but nothing more than that to praise him. 

Adaptation: 2/10 This is where Rafe view starts making disasters. Of course, Lan is a stoic character but stoicism=toxic masculinity, so here comes the new Lan who is basically another person. And of course in no way it appears that he should be  the best of the best.

 

 

Rand

Acting: 6/10 He has written Rand Al'Thor all over him but the chances to shine, as a side-character, have been slim. 

Adaptation: 4/10 He is not butchered like the other two EF guys: as in the books also in the show he is the good and humble guy who wants a normal life but in the show he is deprived of all his moments and they have completely destroyed the struggle to accept who he really is.

 

Mat

Acting: 9/10 An excellent performance by a talented actor who unfortunately left the show. His character is not the book one but he is credible and delivers the perfect emotional balance for a character doing bad things (robbing the dead!) but caring for his sisters.

Adaptation: 0/10 He is a made-up character sharing only the name with the book Mat.

 

 

Perrin

Acting: 4/10 If there was an Oscar for staying with the mouth open, he would win it. I am not giving less only because i feel this character has been so butchered that no acting could save him.

Adaptation: 0/10 Killed his made-up wife, stayed with mouth open, enjoyed vegan cousine, fought over Egwene.

 

Egwene

Acting: 2/10 The weakest performer of the main cast, I really don't like her acting.

Adaptation: 0/10 How to transform a brilliant and ambitious young girl that however is still a rookie and naive in a Mary-sue. Well done Rafe.

 

Nynaeve

Acting: 7.5/10 She is really charismatic and a credible Nynaeve,  well  done by her.

Adaptation: 0/10 How to transform a great multifaceted character in a Mary-sue. Well done Rafe.

Excellent breakdown. The one I would disagree on is Moiraine's adaption rank the changes just completely destroy her, the white tower politics is just embarrassing and her abandonment of the EFs is a travesty to the book character. 0/10 for me. The most diminished character in the whole series. 

[notpropaganda73]

As I mentioned in the ep8 thread, how you end something will leave the bigger impression. I know there are many that have hated this adaptation vehemently, and that’s ok, but as bitterly disappointed as I was with the finale I still have to say I enjoyed the season as a whole.

 

Episode 4 is really the shining light in terms of potential for the show. And I feel that they had strong moments through the middle episodes. The finale was an unmitigated disaster, but there was enough in S1 for me to be optimistic about

[Spiritweaver1]

I believe I mentioned earlier that shortly after New Years i was going to binge all 8 episodes.  That binge will give me a final score on the series to date and determine my going forward plan.  There are other shows out there and I need to be discerning at my age on how I spend my time next year.   Until then I am going dark on here, except for my final thoughts.  I have appreciated being a part of the community and do wish I had joined back in the days when I was first going through the books.   I think I read TEOTW in 1992 or thereabouts.  At any rate I am about to finish ACOT which is where my sister Egw becomes super badass not in TEOTW.  Of course by season three of the show she will have changed her name to Captain Marvel.