Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[notpropaganda73]

7 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

The book just kinda mentions over and over again that the Bond is important and that Warders go crazy when their Aes Sedai die. Then, like a miracle, when Moiraine dies our brains do their job and we immediately understand the stakes. Almost like we're intelligent people capable of making connections. 

 

RJ trusted his readers. The WoT show thinks we're stupid. 

 

I didn't like the Steppin arc because it felt too drawn out and took focus away for too long from what should be the main characters, but to be honest if I was watching a TV show or movie that constantly told me how important something was without ever showing it to me, I'd just think "yeah whatever". It's a bit like some JJ Abrams movie, where they are constantly running from scene to scene yelling about the important thing. It's very surface level stuff and doesn't make for lasting story-telling, at least in film and television. Books are obviously a different kettle of fish.

 

It'd be pretty tedious to get three seasons in to the show and have had everyone mention over and over again that the bond is important. This way it's been a big focus early on and it's not something the show has to keep harping on about for it to have an impact further down the line. I have said I didn't like how much focus this took away from our main characters, and it's absolutely fair to criticise that aspect of things in my view, but I think the arc itself was really well executed and makes total sense from a story telling perspective of the Warder-Aes Sedai bond. (imo).

 

Funnily enough, I think the show has probably not explained some things enough. I don't think they are assuming the audience are stupid at all. But hey, who'd have thought we might disagree swolly ?

[KakitaOCU]

21 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

The book just kinda mentions over and over again that the Bond is important and that Warders go crazy when their Aes Sedai die. Then, like a miracle, when Moiraine dies our brains do their job and we immediately understand the stakes. Almost like we're intelligent people capable of making connections. 

 

RJ trusted his readers. The WoT show thinks we're stupid. 

Actually, I wrote off the bond as a major issue until way later when we actually see Warders snap.

I knew the bond was magical.  I knew Moraine did something, but I genuinely read it at the time as her knowing Lan would just march on the Blight if he wasn't tied to her so she tied him to Myrelle because she felt Nynaeve wasn't ready.  

You can't tell me that at book 5 alone you knew how severe the bond was.  Because we had never seen it.

[TheDreadReader]

1 minute ago, KakitaOCU said:

I knew the bond was magical.  I knew Moraine did something, but I genuinely read it at the time as her knowing Lan would just march on the Blight if he wasn't tied to her so she tied him to Myrelle because she felt Nynaeve wasn't ready.  
 

 

Given how much time they've spent on the bond + Nyneave, we could easily expect the the show to skip over the Myrelle part of that process.  I'm okay with that.

 

Also, now that they've introduced the bond to the degree that they had, they may have created a space for introducing Elyas to help flesh out Perrin's storyline.   He's an ex-warder.  He's still bonded.  Yet, he no longer acts like a warder.  There is a context for that to make sense to the average viewer while also emphasizing that Perrin's gift is different from the one power.

 

 

 

[TheSmurf]

1 hour ago, GanoesParan said:

 

Here is something to keep in mind about Amazon's adaptation of WoT. If the purpose of Rafe Judkins and Amazon was to produce the show in order to please book readers of RJ's work only, then they would not be targeting a big enough audience to make the show a huge success and justify the hundreds of millions of dollars already spent for seasons 1 & 2. 

I believe that If this show is going to be a success, then it MUST have the largest majority of its audience come from viewers who enjoy watching fantasy but don't like reading door stop sized books. Considering that the show is getting mostly positive reviews from non-readers, then I believe that the show is well on its way to being successful.

See this is where I would question the the idea that the GA may like or need a different story to what the books told to enjoy it.

 

Change what is necessary to ensure the book story is well told in a visual medium. The story itself should be good enough to interest the GA. I don't think they're nailing that aspect as well as I'd have liked to date. 

 

It's kind of telling that we know the importance of the bond better than we do, for example, the prophesies of the Dragon. For my Wife and I, we wish our kids watching had been told more about the Dragon at this point.

[Theseus78]

40 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

It's this simple: Have Moirane explain the bond. Later, have a scene where an Aes Sedai is killed and have our characters pass the body of a Warder, his own sword sticking out of his chest. Squeeze another mention from Lan, maybe a conversation with Nynaeve where he explains his own feelings about the Bond to her (also develops their relationship). Oiala! That's it! That's all you have to do. People aren't goldfish. We can remember things, and this would be enough across 2 seasons to justify the Bond taking on greater importance in season 3. 

 

Kinda just seems like writing 101. But then again, these days it seems like most writers think their audience is stupid, so I'm not surprised they chose to just beat us over the head with it. 

It's book writing 101, but TV writing?  Have this conversation, and then this one, and then say this.  Blah blah blah.  People were complaining about Moraine's Manetheren info dump as being too much talking.  While I think they took too much time with the Stepin arc, it's way better than a ton of exposition later. 

[WhiteVeils]

30 minutes ago, TheSmurf said:

It's kind of telling that we know the importance of the bond better than we do, for example, the prophesies of the Dragon. For my Wife and I, we wish our kids watching had been told more about the Dragon at this point.

You're not supposed to know anything about the Dragon now.  Learning about the Dragon is something that goes across multiple years and books.  It works best right now that it is mysterious and confusing...it is for our EF5.

[swollymammoth]

1 hour ago, notpropaganda73 said:

Funnily enough, I think the show has probably not explained some things enough. I don't think they are assuming the audience are stupid at all. But hey, who'd have thought we might disagree swolly ?

I may have let my emotions get away from me here haha I'll rescind that. I don't think they think we're stupid. 

[TheSmurf]

28 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

You're not supposed to know anything about the Dragon now.  Learning about the Dragon is something that goes across multiple years and books.  It works best right now that it is mysterious and confusing...it is for our EF5.

I meant the prophecies, not The Dragon, apologies... And I do wish more had been mentioned of them by this point... But maybe they will be mentioned more soon. 

Edited December 7, 2021 by TheSmurf

[swollymammoth]

52 minutes ago, Theseus78 said:

It's book writing 101, but TV writing?  Have this conversation, and then this one, and then say this.  Blah blah blah.  People were complaining about Moraine's Manetheren info dump as being too much talking.

This is literally 2 conversations over the course of 2 seasons and a scene (probably following the aftermath at Falme) which could be included very, very organically. 

 

"The bond between an Aes Sedai and Warder is deep. Lan feels what I feel, but it is so much more than that. When the bond is severed, a warder may go mad." 

 

15 seconds? Squeeze that in a scene where Moiraine is explaining Aes Sedai stuff to Egwene (which she's already done in the show). The conversation with Lan and Nynaeve that I brought up would be about their relationship firstly. Why can't they be together? The Bond is then explained from Lan's perspective but it's couched in this character moment. Hardly boring. Hardly an exposition dump. Hardly incompatible with TV. 

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

This is literally 2 conversations over the course of 2 seasons and a scene (probably following the aftermath at Falme) which could be included very, very organically. 

 

"The bond between an Aes Sedai and Warder is deep. Lan feels what I feel, but it is so much more than that. When the bond is severed, a warder may go mad." 

 

15 seconds? Squeeze that in a scene where Moiraine is explaining Aes Sedai stuff to Egwene (which she's already done in the show). The conversation with Lan and Nynaeve that I brought up would be about their relationship firstly. Why can't they be together? The Bond is then explained from Lan's perspective, but it's couched in this character moment. Hardly boring. Hardly an exposition dump. Hardly incompatible with TV. 

Is that memorable though? Does it have a visceral impact? Will it make people understand that gravity of Alanna's bonding Rand? Or why it saves Birgitte? Or is that the type of thing that will fly over people's heads the first time and they will have to be reminded of repeatedly?

[RextheDog]

9 hours ago, Chwooly said:

 

 

GOT,  are all good examples of how it should be done.

 

 

edited for clarity, but i dont believe i have changed the context of your post

 

GOT was horrendous. i have no idea why people have forgiven such a badly, long drawn out, commercially successful show....

 

the first season was a drag, the last three were pathetic, and inbetween, when it was a quality drama at least, it was way too rapey and violent....

 

 

people are seeing it with rose tinted glasses methinks...it was a juggernaught and the politiking first class, but you cant ignore the other stuff....it was all GOT....

 

if we can apply that logic to GOT, then we can filter out the bits of WOT we dont like aswell......and if we can do that, badabing badabang, just like that, we already have a show that is a monty for an Emmy or two

 

 

 

[Katherine]

10 minutes ago, RextheDog said:

 

 

edited for clarity, but i dont believe i have changed the context of your post

 

GOT was horrendous. i have no idea why people have forgiven such a badly, long drawn out, commercially successful show....

 

the first season was a drag, the last three were pathetic, and inbetween, when it was a quality drama at least, it was way too rapey and violent....

 

 

people are seeing it with rose tinted glasses methinks...it was a juggernaught and the politiking first class, but you cant ignore the other stuff....it was all GOT....

 

if we can apply that logic to GOT, then we can filter out the bits of WOT we dont like aswell......and if we can do that, badabing badabang, just like that, we already have a show that is a monty for an Emmy or two

 

 

 

And yet it was a cultural phenomenon. 

 

Led by the book fans.

 

 

[flinn]

2 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

I'd ask you this: what key book moment have we missed? I can think of only two so far:  Perrin did not kill a Whitecloak (at least he hasn't yet), and Rand did not fall into the palace Garden. Otherwise, the main beats of EotW are all present in the tv show. 

 (at least he hasnt yet)...

 

 That ship has sailed. If he killed a WC now, who would blame him? At this point Perrin and the WCs are enemies as far as I am concerned and feeling guilty for killing a WC after they tortured him is not something for him to feel guilty about.

[themann1086]

1 minute ago, flinn said:

 (at least he hasnt yet)...

 

 That ship has sailed. If he killed a WC now, who would blame him? At this point Perrin and the WCs are enemies as far as I am concerned and feeling guilty for killing a WC after they tortured him is not something for him to feel guilty about.

And since the wolves definitely killed some WCs, and Valda is absolutely going to hold the dude whose eyes turned wolf like responsible, there's already a ton of emnity between them. Mission accomplished

[Elder_Haman]

19 minutes ago, flinn said:

If he killed a WC now, who would blame him?

Well that sort of depends on how its written. Bornhald seemed to be a decent guy, so there is still the potential for Perring to dig himself in further. But at any rate, I always took the "killed Laila" arc as a replacement for the "killed a WC" arc anyway.

[Deviations]

2 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I'd ask you this: what key book moment have we missed? I can think of only two so far:  Perrin did not kill a Whitecloak (at least he hasn't yet), and Rand did not fall into the palace Garden. Otherwise, the main beats of EotW are all present in the tv show. 

Here is one:  Nyn vs Moraine with the rest present at the Queen's Blessing.

Here is another: Perrin meeting Elyas and the wolves - Perrin's interaction with the wolves so far is less than understandable for anyone who hasn't read the books

Here is another: I guess I'm the only person here fixated on Rand's journey with the flute.  At the end of his journey, he goes of into the sunset content to explore the land.  The book doesn't mention the flute but the feel of it is there.

[Elder_Haman]

20 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Nyn vs Moraine with the rest present at the Queen's Blessing.

Here is another: Perrin meeting Elyas and the wolves - Perrin's interaction with the wolves so far is less than understandable for anyone who hasn't read the books

Nyn vs. Moiraine with the rest present is still very possible. In fact, I'd say likely.

 

I think they are teasing Perrin's wolf stuff but going to move the heavy lifting for the wolf dream (and the Elyas character) to Season 2. That will smooth his arc out. 

 

 

[Ralph]

29 minutes ago, Deviations said:

: I guess I'm the only person here fixated on Rand's flute.  

 

Yup

[Yojimbo]

11 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

Yup

While not fixated on it, I miss it a great deal.   Thom and Lan become surrogate fathers for Rand in the books, and the flute is a symbol of that connection between Rand and Thom.   

[Jaysen Gore]

15 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

While not fixated on it, I miss it a great deal.   Thom and Lan become surrogate fathers for Rand in the books, and the flute is a symbol of that connection between Rand and Thom.   

I also think that with just a little more space to breathe from Amazon, the flute would have been a great way to show how long the boys were on the road. Having him butchering notes early, and as they close on TV, have him sing for his supper with it. But with 8 episodes, we got 2 road encounters, instead of about 10. But I'm not putting that decision on Rafe.

[swollymammoth]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

Is that memorable though? Does it have a visceral impact? Will it make people understand that gravity of Alanna's bonding Rand? Or why it saves Birgitte? Or is that the type of thing that will fly over people's heads the first time and they will have to be reminded of repeatedly?

How about this: Are the characters memorable? Is Rand not a wooden plank with a face on it? Is Egwene not a mary sue? Maybe they should have spent some of this time on fleshing out the story at hand rather than indulging themselves in fan fiction. If they wanted to explore the bond, they had a perfect opportunity when Moiaine was injured and they just did nothing. 

 

Do my suggestions have a visceral impact? They don't need to. Not yet. All that the first two seasons need to to is introduce the idea and familiarize the audience with it. That's it. Laying out breadcrumbs is something that literally every show does. Every time a show does this, the answer to "is it visceral?" is "no, but we have bigger fish to fry right now, so we'll plant the seeds and get back to them later when it doesn't distract from the story." This is just basic prioritization. Every writer does it whether in TV, books, or movies. They should have done it here. 

 

The writing team seems to have fallen victim to the same mistake that many on his forum have: boiling EotW down to a few key events and satisfying themselves with checking the boxes. "As long as we keep those things, it's all good," they seem to think, but it's clear they never understood the tissue that was holding it all together in the first place. They gutted one of the finest adventure stories ever told and stuffed it with lint. Sure, they bones are still there, and it's still got the same face, but everyone inside is dead. 

 

I said before the show even aired that I was worried the writers wouldn't respect EotW because it contains so little of what most would consider "awesome" about WoT. And I was exactly right.  

[swollymammoth]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

I think they are teasing Perrin's wolf stuff but going to move the heavy lifting for the wolf dream (and the Elyas character) to Season 2. That will smooth his arc out. 

Hmmm... almost like they realized that in order to make the story flow they needed to prioritize other things, so they just hinted at this part of the story in season 1 with plans on returning to it later. Interesting. Where else could they have done something like this, I wonder? 

Edited December 7, 2021 by swollymammoth

[Elder_Haman]

37 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Is Rand not a wooden plank

Not at all.

 

38 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Is Egwene not a mary sue?

Again, not at all.

 

38 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

they never understood the tissue that was holding it all together in the first place. They gutted one of the finest adventure stories ever told and stuffed it with lint.

What is this tissue? What has been 'gutted'?

 

37 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Where else could they have done something like this, I wonder? 

I suspect you're referring to the bond. But it's apples to oranges. The bond is a concept that applies to numerous characters across the series and has major impacts on at least 5 character storylines. So the concept of the bond had to be conveyed in a memorable way.

 

Perrin, on the other hand, is a character who needs things to fill his screen time. Even in the books Perrin gets lost at times. And he essentially repeats his entire arc twice. Stretching Perrin's arc makes sense.

[fra85uk]

Just want to share here this nice technical review in which a competent woman explains all the filming major flows of the series and why everything look so fake.

 

 

[WheelofJuke]

Quote

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced ... but I know it when I see it ..."

- Elder Potter Stewart, in reference to "tissue" that defines WoT-ness