Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[DaddyFinn]

1/10 ratings in IMDb are dropping slow and steady in %. Few days ago it was 8,2% and now 7,4%.

 

[Pandemonium]

1 hour ago, Beidomon said:

It’s hard to believe we’re FOUR HOURS into this series and we “only” have four hours left of Season 1.

 

Yes, they are making a lot of mostly little changes, but overall it seems to me that the writers are doing a pretty good job of checking the boxes of the broad strokes of TEOTW.

1. Introducing the EF5, Mo, Lan.

2. Tam, Sword, Winternight.

3. Eg learns to channel.

4. Nyn is angry and distrustful and stubborn.

5. Baz hauntin’ dreams.

6. Shadar Logoth (but damn they really messed it up).

7. Mat, Rand, Thom, Darkfriends, and the Dagger.

8. Perrin, Eg, and the Tinkers.

 

And of course they’ve added….

1. Pretty much a whole episode exploring Logain, the Reds, the Greens, and the Warder bond (worth it to me). 
2. More Whitecloaks, and making them more menacing to the Aes Sedai (that’s working for me).

 

I think I only have 4 major complaints so far….

1. No prologue, but it can still work later in the series.

2. Changing the lore to DR might be a “boy or girl” - Rafe’s latest excuse of “well, maybe Moraine just doesn’t trust the prophesy” is damage control to try to appease the fans, especially after he already said they made this change to adapt the story to modern sensibilities. But hopefully the ripples will be contained when the DR is revealed this season. 

3. Guys, they really did mess up Shadar Logoth in a major way. What a let down. Major set piece - huge disappointment.

4. The show looks a bit too clean, artificial, staged. A little YA/CW. Can’t tell you why - it’s just a look.

 

There's nothing here the show can’t recover from. It has a lot of promise. The main actors are all great.

 

Since they are cutting Caemlyn, I think they should be able to round out the final major pieces of TEOTW in the final four episodes: Perrin and Eg meet the WC, Loial, TV, Ways, FD, Blight, Eye, DR.

 

I agree that the Shadar Logoth scene was a let down so far.  That said, based on Rafe's AMA comment, I believe we are going to get a part 2 where Fain and possibly the trollocs went into Shadar Logoth.  Not sure if this will be season 1 or 2, but hopefully they have more in store with Fain this season.  

[RhienneAgain]

8 hours ago, phoenixtrinity said:

I've been enjoying the diversity. Jordan's world always felt diverse and although there are certainly nitpicks to be had, overall the diversity in the show is working really well. Even my husband says it really gives the impression this fantasy world has a blend of cultures and he hasn't even read the books.

 

To that end, I'd have been more disappointed if the show only featured stereotypically Caucasion actors and actresses as I personally would have found it lore-breaking.

 

 

Yeah, I think the one aspect of it I've found a bit disappointing is that in the books I got such a strong sense that each area had its own ethnicity (i.e. a Domain would look very different from a Cairhienin) and that doesn't seem to have been replicated in the shows. It was part of what made the world feel real to me. I can understand why that would have been tough to replicate though.

[RhienneAgain]

7 hours ago, Windigo said:

I think some of it is likeability, with the books you could have 8 books where many readers hated Nynaeve Moiraine, Perrin or Mat, which in a show makes it harder to invest in the characters if they are boring, irritating, annoying early on, even if later they become a favorite. To me they have eliminated some of that, and the characters are more like what they are later on,

Thats a very fair point. I had been thinking that Nynaeve seemed much more like Nynaeve in the later books when she is much more at peace with herself. Your reasoning on this makes sense.

[RhienneAgain]

5 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

I have long been assuming that the sea folk will be omitted entirely (as a timesaver) as they are the most clearly dispensable plot line.  The use of multiple earrings on several TV show characters (and nose ring on Dana) which were unique to the book sea folk culture also points to this.  The only thing we have not seen is the ear to nose chains with medallions (which were only for the highest rank sea folk).

Yes, good point. I think Bowl of the Winds is their only really critical plot point and their role as master weather manipulators using saidar could be passed to the Kin or other channelers.

[Ralph]

6 hours ago, phoenixtrinity said:

In Episode 3, in the dream with Laila, the wolf is eating Laila and then she looks at Perrin and says "I know!"

 

Do we know why she said this or what it could be refering to? Is this something that could be related to the theory Laila had a miscarriage and/or their marriage was strained?

 

I thought she is repeating her response to him saying "I love you." It had the same intonation. So I believe it is a reference to the difficulty in the relationship, though we don't yet know what that was

[flinn]

5 hours ago, RhienneAgain said:

Yes, good point. I think Bowl of the Winds is their only really critical plot point and their role as master weather manipulators using saidar could be passed to the Kin or other channelers.

 Most likely, Nynaeve will sneeze and the weather across the world will change to suit her needs. Creator+

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

Ok, so I've been back and forth on being hopeful and being critical - but after episode 4 my hope meter has greatly increased! 

There are a lot of changes - but there has to be - even if you get 8 seasons you have cut and speed up stuff a whole lot to tell the story and get to the end. So....

 

Changes I like so far:

#1. Tv Thom is my favorite major change so far. Because - that book Thom could one on one survive a fight with a Fade never made sense to me. This darker, grittier, more bad-ass Thom is really working for me. 

 

#2. Tv Matt is much more, immediately likeable and funny, than book Matt. Book Matt was an annoying, always making mistakes, prankster in the first books and became the awesome Han-Solo rogue later on. They're already nailing that. 

 

#3. Playing up the Egwene/Rand love connection. That's been done better than the books.

 

#4. Giving us more of Logain from the get go. That's Smaht (as my Bostonian friends would say) because it's great for world-building with elements around male-channelers and Aes Sedai. 

 

Changes I didn't like but am coming around to: 

#1. Pressing into the "Who is the Dragon" question. After episode 4 I think they're doing it well - and the reveal of who it is could be really cool. This has got to change after S1 though. 

 

#2. Aging up and giving the characters motivations. I'm sure they asked the question in the writers room, "How do we fast track Perrins internal conflict with the hammer and the ax/violence and peace?" "How do we fast track that Nyn is one of the most powerful female channelers and a healer?" "How do we fast track Rand's distrust of Aes Sedai & Matt's muddled motivations?" 

 

I don't totally love how they're doing it. But I get it. You only have so much space... I doubt any of us could do better at setting up the next 7 seasons than they've done in 4 episodes. 

 

#3. Moving most of the "meet ups"/significant convergences to TV. If it didn't make sense to have the Trakands or Caemlyn budget-wise for S1 ... Tar Valon makes a lot of sense to meet Loial/Min/Basil (and maybe even the Trakands??? Perhaps Caemlyn is cut all together???) 

 

Changes I still don't like/probably won't come around to: 

 

#1. Saying the DR could be male/female and pump faking hard toward Eg multiple times (and now, once again - towards Nyn). It's too much change for not enough pay off. And if you changed it for "modern sensiblities" those "modern people" still won't be pleased when you keep the Dragon as 

Spoiler

Rand and not Egwene 

 

#2. Shadar Logoth. Got to agree that, that was botched. Could have been much cooler and scarier. If you're going to spend tons on building SL instead of Caemlyn, do it right and use it properly. 

 

Overall. I'm pretty optimistic at this point. 

 

Edited November 28, 2021 by Wolfbrother31

[sierramekate]

1 hour ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

Changes I still don't like/probably won't come around to: 

 

#1. Saying the DR could be male/female and pump faking hard toward Eg multiple times (and now, once again - towards Nyn). It's too much change for not enough pay off. And if you changed it for "modern sensiblities" those "modern people" still won't be pleased when you keep the Dragon as [is]

 

Overall. I'm pretty optimistic at this point. 

 

I speculated at one point that even though the show is keeping Saidin and Saidar that there were two ways around the DR possibility being a woman or a man by deviating from the books.

1) Maybe on previous turnings of the Wheel that Saidar was tainted, but not permanently. Maybe the DR that binds the world & cleanses the taint just has to be the same sex/gender as the last DR that broke the world & tainted half of the source).

2) Maybe the DR is different and has so much power not just because they are the most powerful channeller, but that they are the only known person who (eventually?) has access to both Saidin and Saidar. That both of those facts could make them unique & distinguishable, and allow the DR to be a man or woman each time.

Edited November 28, 2021 by sierramekate

[Jaysen Gore]

At this point, even if I didn't know anything about what's to come, I would be starting to have questions around all the speculation and misdirection, stemming from the fact that 4 episodes in, only 1 of the 5 EF characters has not been obviously shown as being special in some way. Perrin has something with Wolves, Mat can see Fades, and the girls can channel. Who does that leave - the one who's had a couple of clues in passing, but nothing obvious. Yet. 

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Mat can see Fades

Everyone can do that.

[CaddySedai]

3 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Everyone can do that.

 

Ha.

[Jaysen Gore]

5 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Everyone can do that.

Yeah, oops - try it this way. Mat could sense the Fade's evil, almost the same way the Aes Sedai could

[sierramekate]

5 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Everyone can do that.

 

Maybe they meant Matt can sense Fades ?

I mean, what drew Matt from the Barn (even if he did wake) towards that family's farm house? Unless they want the audience to infer it was homicidal lust ?

 

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, Jaysen Gore said:

almost the same way the Aes Sedai could

And Thom?

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

The Matt misdirect was super obvious - Thom saying that he thinks he can channel. 

 

The Nyn misdirect was not subtle either which makes no sense since she's too old (but Moiraine saying to Logain that his power was nothing compared to the brilliant light of the Dragon or something like that) and then Nyn healing everybody and Logain saying, "what a brilliant light" or something like that.

 

The Eg misdirect is slightly more subtle ... Lan asking if Logain is as strong as her... 

 

Rand knocked down that door...

 

There's not really been an obvious Perrin faint. With Perrin there's something with Wolves but there's nothing we've been told that connects the DR with wolves. 

 

I.E ... In the TV WoT we know the DR is the most powerful channeler & that the Dark One is after them. They've given us reason to believe or suspect that Egwene, Nyn, and Matt can channel and maybe Rand. No indication that Perrin can channel. 

 

Honestly, right now I think they want the audience to think the DR is Nyn. She's the only one we've seen powerfully channel (and the Moiraine/Nyn convo in E1 was perhaps to suggest that they don't know how old Nyn is??) 

Edited November 28, 2021 by Wolfbrother31

[fra85uk]

I have lurked this site for years, being a long-time fan of the series, which is indeed my favourite one.

So hello everyone from Italy.

I have thought really carefully about my opinion on this show, which I hoped to be as good as possible, being well aware that 1:1 adaptation was not possible (and not desirable either).

Unfortunately, this show

a) fails to portray the WoT universe on both the micro (plot, scenes, dialog etc) and the macro (character motivations/feelings, locations, general spirit of the world) level.

b) it performs a) with poor acting (with few exceptions), fake-looking scenery, and some very awkard/cringe moments ("but mah son!", ghealdean king running in battle among a bunch of ill-clothed cgi-less trollocs, etc.), all of this making you question where the 10 milion per episode really go.

 

I don't want to go in detail, because basically each episode simply delivers a) with b).

However, there is one thing that is bothering me, going beyond the failures of this show as an adaptation and as a being a decent show itself. Why they chose as main theme of the show the """mystery""" of who the Dragon reborn is? It feels so, so cheap in all the possible ways. And it is not going to pay in the long time when the DR will be revealed (unless they choose to go "all in" and change the DR, which i would actually prefer because that would be the less hypocritical choice and it's what they really would like to do)
 

Finally, from a perspective of the show itself, it is currently failing in what was the goal of the producers, i.e rival GoT. Of course, this occurs because it is worse from any possible angle. In my little bubble of the world, I remember I was working at Uni in Switzerland when GoT dropped. After a few episodes, everybody in my research group was talking about it, from the chinese phd student to the US senior post-doc.  By the end of the season, cafeterias were organizing screenings and got my mum calling me to ask if it was worth seeing. I have to say that none of this is happening for this series, which unfortunately, as The Guardian pointed out, will be soon forgotten.

 

At least, the books will remain.

 

Sorry for the long post and have a nice day

[CaddySedai]

Thank you for your opinion.

 

I'm glad someone brought up The Guardian.

 

It is always fun to point out how "off pulse" The Guardian always is. Hot takes missing hard going back to the American Civil War.

 

Takes major effort to fail so consistently ?

[fra85uk]

Well, I am not a Guardian fan but having spent 4 year of my life in UK, I took the habit of reading it.

However, while I do not share some of the thoughts in their review (which I expected to be more positive considering their general political views), I frankly cannot disagree with the title " Jeff Bezos’s Game of Thrones is destined to be forgotten". 

Edited November 28, 2021 by fra85uk

[CaddySedai]

We shall see.

 

There is still much disagreement on both sides ?

[fra85uk]

To be clear: as much as I dislike the show, I would be happy that people enjoying it might have the chance to have their full 8 seasons.

 

What I wanted to point out is that I fear this will not happen not because is subjetively/objectively bad but because it is failing in its grand purpose, which is not giving the fans of the book a faithful adaptation to be discussed on-line, but it is establishing the series as a pop-culture phenomenon, a feat that has been fully accomplished by GoT and, in other genres, by Squid Game very recently. In this context, WoT does not come even close and for a series with such a high budget this is a big problem. 

[itsjodie]

For everyone who’s upset about the wacky hand movements of the Aes Sedai, I suggest you take a close look at the way Logain channels - he doesn’t move his hands. Hopefully this is on purpose (thank you Sarah, if so) but it helps to emphasize that Aes Sedai canonically use hand movement when they channel. It’s noted that Wise Ones and Athan Miere don’t use their hands and find it odd that the Aes Sedai do. So, yes, it’s irritating but it is true to the books and I’m glad they’ve laid those foundations. Logain shouldn’t use his hands when he channels because he didn’t train with the Aes Sedai and thus didn’t learn how to do weaves with his hands. I was so happy when he didn’t channel with movements because it shows that they payed attention to that haha

[TheMountain]

There are two main points that I think are driving disappointment in the show:

 

1. Major changes so far to the source material far above and beyond "changes required for a visual medium."

2. The production quality and writing is nowhere near Game of Thrones level.

 

I think that if either one of these issues was addressed, Amazon could have a wildly successfull and critically acclaimed show in its hands.

Edited November 28, 2021 by TheMountain

[CaddySedai]

2 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

2. The production quality and writing is nowhere near Game of Thrones level.

 

It reminds me of GoT season one. Lots of rose colored glasses for that season from fans lol.

 

Also the problem is they need to spend bigger amounts on CGI right off the bat. GoT avoided large scale battles and the white walker army through two whole seasons. And they didn't have magic then or even really any dragon setpieces.

 

Right off the bat WoT needed hordes of monsters and tons and tons of magic.

 

I suspect of the TWO points you made that is where you see the most improvement over time.

[Elder_Haman]

Also, for the “where’s the money gone” folks: remember, the biggest set pieces are still to come. The Ways, the Eye (?), Tarwin’s Gap, the Blight. 
 

Those will have gotten more priority and more money invested in them.