tv show spoilers Darkfriends in WoT TV Series (and books by extension)

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, DaddyFinn said:

There are screencaps but I couldn't find a good quality one right now.

 

Thanks a lot for the effort. However, if this is a representative view, and remember it took milliseconds to go by the screen, then it's very hard to believe that this is what RJ2 means as something to notice.

[DaddyFinn]

3 minutes ago, GanoesParan said:

It is very difficult to see, but to me the head of that weapon looks like a sledgehammer. 

It's either the same she used before or a similar one. Definitely a sledgehammer. Exact timestamp is 42:00. Laila drops it and we see the hammerhead clearly.

 

2 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Thanks a lot for the effort. However, if this is a representative view, and remember it took milliseconds to go by the screen, then it's very hard to believe that this is what RJ2 means as something to notice.

I don't think Rafe was referring to this exactly but to something else in the whole scene. I don't know what.

[DaddyFinn]

Just to put this to rest: @ 41:44 Laila has killed the trolloc with the sledgehammer, the trolloc falls down and trips her with its horns/head. She grabs the sledgehammer with two hands as she falls to her knees. Cut to Perrin as he attacks the last trolloc and starts decimating it. Cut to Perrin slicing Laila in half and Laila dropping the sledgehammer.

 

I'm still curious why there's a growl just before Perrin spins and hits her. Wolf sense was tingling?

Edited December 6, 2021 by DaddyFinn

[Harad the White]

16 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

 

I don't think Rafe was referring to this exactly but to something else in the whole scene. I don't know what.

The quote above by RJ2 was in the context of the question, "Is Laila a DF?" He concludes by saying there "is" something to notice there. To me, what there is to notice, is the image that @DaddyFinnposted above. It is a picture of Laila standing behind Perrin with a raised slaying device, hammer or axe. What are we to conclude? If Laila being a DF is ruled out, and medieval divorce is ruled out--what make Laila take this pose? She is controlled by evil, and the best quess for the evil, is a leaking out Forsaken.

[SinisterDeath]

8 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

 It is a picture of Laila standing behind Perrin with a raised slaying device, hammer or axe. 

Definitely Hammer. (Behold the Glory of MS Paint!)

[Harad the White]

Is that a Widow's peak and horns I see on Laila?

[Theseus78]

33 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

what make Laila take this pose? 

She was going to hit the Trolloc.

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, Theseus78 said:

She was going to hit the Trolloc.

The Trolloc was on the other side of Perrin, and by now mincemeat. Again that doesn't explain RJ2's quote. Mebe RJ2 was blowing smoke rings.

[Harad the White]

More evidence:

In Eps 3 Perrin has a dream. He call's "Laila" and the next image is Baalzamon. Next a wolf is eating the haggis of Laila. This all points to the "Forsaken" theory.

[Scarloc99]

On 12/1/2021 at 5:48 PM, TheDreadReader said:

 

Well, it is muddied.  Not all the Reds that were involved were black.  For example, Elaida plays a part in exposing it but she reverses the punishment for some Red Sisters that were involved.   And, Ishy punishes the BA for their involvement too. 

 

I think generally it comes down to the BA knew that the dragon had been reborn and responded by trying to kill him early and they convinced enough reds to go along with it until they got caught.  One of the easiest ways to hide the fact that you're hunting the DR is to just go after male channelers and hope you catch the DR in that wider net. 

This theme also fits into the idea of the BA perpetuating a theory that the dragon might be a women. If they find a very powerful women who won’t be joining them they can claim she is the dragon. This then allows for the Ars Sedai to misunderstand the myths. 

[Scarloc99]

I don’t get this obsession with Laila being a dark friend and the assumption that makes Perrin get over killing her. 
 

If she is then the psychological impact of learning that a girl he grew up with, courted, fell in love with and seemingly lost a child with was pretending the whole time should break him more then killing her. 
 

The idea works as a way of trying to convince yourself Perrin wasn’t really married and it’s ok he killed his wife. I prefer to enjoy this tweak to his arc showing his berserker rage in a new way and finding out how it impacts his relationship with Faille in the future. 

[Harad the White]

I consider it proven that Laila is controlled by a Forsaken, probably Baalzamon.

 

1. She is raising her weapon of mass destruction behind Perrin to kill him.

2. RJ2 points to the scene wrt Laila

3. In the (first?) dream of Perrin he calls "Laila" and the next image is Baalzamon.

4. In the same dream a wolf is eating Laila. This a wolfly confirmation that something needs to be excised from Laila.

 

Q.E.D.

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Harad the White

[Vambram]

The other option is the thought that perhaps Laila was being controlled by one of the Forsaken. In my mind, the only Forsaken who would have been able to do so would be Ishamael.

[Sabio]

Why would a forsaken control some random lady in hopes her husband may one day prove to be important?  There would be easier ways for Ishy to deal with this.  Ishy could have just appeared with the Trollocs and balefired everyone, problem solved.  He would have to find Laila and then use compulsion on her.  Fain was there to point out the people the Do was looking for, when would a forsaken of had anytime to control Laila?

[Scarloc99]

On 12/6/2021 at 10:45 PM, Harad the White said:

I consider it proven that Laila is controlled by a Forsaken, probably Baalzamon.

 

1. She is raising her weapon of mass destruction behind Perrin to kill him.

2. RJ2 points to the scene wrt Laila

3. In the (first?) dream of Perrin he calls "Laila" and the next image is Baalzamon.

4. In the same dream a wolf is eating Laila. This a wolfly confirmation that something needs to be excised from Laila.

 

Q.E.D.

 

Again this makes no real logical sense, at this point in time the Forsaken are not 100% on any of these being the dragon, Laila seems a random person to just take over. I think people are reading far far more into this scene than there is and am pretty sure when we learn what Rafe was referring to we will find it is completely different.  

[Harad the White]

7 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Again this makes no real logical sense, at this point in time the Forsaken are not 100% on any of these being the dragon, Laila seems a random person to just take over. I think people are reading far far more into this scene than there is and am pretty sure when we learn what Rafe was referring to we will find it is completely different.  

Theories make "real logical sense" if, for one thing, they fit all the facts. This one fits all the facts. The only real problem others have with the theory is that "it's not in the Book." Likewise, one could say, "It makes no real logical sense for Nyn to be dragged away by a Trolloc. Why would a Trolloc drag away a random person?" In fact, it happened in Amazon, it was motivated by the importance of Nyn, and it advanced the story. In the case of Laila--she is not a random person. She is the only person who can kill the VIP, Perrin, under the circumstances of the Trolloc attack. It is clear that the forces of Evil have identified VIPs like Nyn and Perrin and want to eliminate them. The events in Eps. 1 and Eps. 3, show that the Evil attempting to eliminate Perrin is Baalzamon through his compulsion on Laila.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

On 12/9/2021 at 5:11 PM, Harad the White said:

It is clear that the forces of Evil have identified VIPs like Nyn and Perrin and want to eliminate them. The events in Eps. 1 and Eps. 3, show that the Evil attempting to eliminate Perrin is Baalzamon through his compulsion on Laila.

Except the forces of evil explicitly do not want to eliminate them, they want to capture them (as stated by Dana).  Hence the trolloc (probably under direct fade control) dragging off Nynaeve when it could easily have killed her and going to eat a wounded trolloc (which the books state would always be their last choice for food due to the bad taste) instead of eating N).

[Sabio]

Fains job was to identify the targets, there would be no need for Fain if some Forsaken has already tossed compulsion on people.

[DermidAjala]

I'm not sure I really buy the hammer up stuff as meaning that she was about to bash Perrin. You've just been unexpectedly attacked by a terrifying group of monsters, I think it's pretty natural you are still ready to hit anything that moves because you have no idea what it takes to stop them moving. The pose is a bit dramatic but would suggest that's simply a visual choice.

 

I suspect the only extra thing going on there is that she was still ready because she doesn't trust Perrin after whatever they had in mind for him to have with Egwene (though that seems to have been played down in edit).

 

As for forsaken influence, the only one I would anticipate influencing anything at this stage is Ishy and he's not going to be sitting around waiting to opportunistically exert some influence on someone's partner at a moment of crisis. Doubly so given Ishy almost certainly doesn't to kill the dragon at this point and getting your head smashed in usually ends in death.

Edited December 11, 2021 by DermidAjala

[Pandemonium]

What was up with Laila though?  there is some unexplained drama with her.  she skipped the women's circle initiation and didn't want to hang with the villagers. usually shows explain these things before they kill a character.  But this show gave us a few sentences from Laila and then she was dead.  what conclusions are they expecting the audience to draw?

[DojoToad]

3 minutes ago, Pandemonium said:

What was up with Laila though?  there is some unexplained drama with her.  she skipped the women's circle initiation and didn't want to hang with the villagers. usually shows explain these things before they kill a character.  But this show gave us a few sentences from Laila and then she was dead.  what conclusions are they expecting the audience to draw?

The standard answer here is WAFO.  They'll probably handle it during a flashback - after non-book readers have completely forgotten who Laila was...

[wotfan4472]

On 12/3/2021 at 7:30 AM, DojoToad said:

That's a question I always had from the books.  Would the Dreadlords have come about without the BT?  Did the pattern have Rand found the BT in order to produce the Dreadlords for the final battle?  Or would a Forsaken have done it independently if the BT was never formed?

The Dreadlords were not just from the Black Tower and Taim. There were surviving Black Ajah as well, serving as Dreadlords, and many from Shara, as well. 

[DojoToad]

28 minutes ago, wotfan4472 said:

The Dreadlords were not just from the Black Tower and Taim. There were surviving Black Ajah as well, serving as Dreadlords, and many from Shara, as well. 

Ah, guess my focus was a bit narrow...

[Sabio]

Dreadlords was just the term used to describe channelers serving the Shadow.  It covered both men and women.

[7th age]

Anyone else feel like they made the Darkfriends too "good"(for lack of a better word?

 

Dana talks about breaking the world because ending the suffering would be a mercy. Aside from Ishamael all the book DF seem to believe the Wheel will be remade to the DO s liking and that they will be showered in power/glory/riches etc. (she talks about her glory/reward after catching them but her motivation for originally joining the Dark seems to be Mercy)

 

Then in Episode 8 we get Padan Fain, who somehow has figured out the main philosphical Ideaof WoT, one of the major revelations of aMoL. Now obviously the word of a DF is not to be trusted, but then we know that part of what he says is true, we need the Dark, we need the balance.

 

And then finally Ishy tries to tempt Rand into changing reality in a (semi-)positive way. No threats about having his loved ones souls, no trying to show him how futile his struggle would be (I win again...)

This part actually bothered me the least, I like the Actor and Temptation is certainly one of the DO s main weapons (hence the most prominent character trait of DF is selfishness) plus in the end Ishy got what he wanted, but if we go that route why show Mercy/End to suffering and Balance as motivation for the actions of DF, instead of greed and lust for power?

 

Trollocs/Fades and the blight clearly show the evil inherent in the DO, but it seems to me any upstanding Randlander who didnt experience those first hand( so most of them) and then talked a bit to Dana and Padan Fain might well be considering joining the shadow for ethical reasons.

 

I certainly would rather vote for Mercy and Balance then the Arrogance of Men/the destroyer of the world Reborn. # Baalzamon for President