tv show spoilers Darkfriends in WoT TV Series (and books by extension)

[Harad the White]

2 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Well sort of easier to prove if a man can channel then if someone may of committed murder or some crime

Ok. You cornvinced me. Make up a "law" with the death penalty for some "offense." Then carry out the sentence summarily. Not gonna be vacationing there.

[CaddySedai]

1 minute ago, Harad the White said:

Ok. You cornvinced me. Make up a "law" with the death penalty for some "offense." Then carry out the sentence summarily. Not gonna be vacationing there.

 

So basically everywhere in GoT. 

 

But yeah I can see it from their perspective and from...well...everyone else in the world's lol.

Edited December 2, 2021 by CaddySedai
Just sniping GoT because its fun.

[Theseus78]

11 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

100% is a good chance. Or a fate worse than death, as The Medieval Mick Jagger (aka Thom) said. 3500 years of the wrong path was finally corrected when the Blessed Moiraine saw the Light.

Well, Thom had the experience of 1 (who was gentled illegally).  Cadsuane was able to keep some alive in the books IIRC. 

 

In fact, one could imagine that the original purpose of bringing them to the WT was to help them deal with it after.

[Sabio]

4 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Ok. You cornvinced me. Make up a "law" with the death penalty for some "offense." Then carry out the sentence summarily. Not gonna be vacationing there.

Well if you think about it, Isn't that also what the Whitecloaks do?  They feel justified enforcing their "laws" and what they feel is right and wrong in any nation they come into.  Pretty much what the Questioners do, they capture you and then decide what you're guilty of and simply will make you admit to it.  Would any nation give a man who could channel a trial?  I'm sure in some places just the rumor you could channel might get you killed by your neighbors.  Would they either simple kill the guy or just toss him to the Aes Sedai and not give a crap what they do with him.  There is probably nothing scarier to people, even to an Aes Sedai, in WOT than a man who could channel.  Just that fear alone makes people not act rationally and justify doing things they might not normally do.

[Harad the White]

Just now, Sabio said:

Well if you think about it, Isn't that also what the Whitecloaks do?  They feel justified enforcing their "laws" and what they feel is right and wrong in any nation they come into

Exactually. In our history that was known as "The Inquisition." It doesn't have the best reputation, looking back.

[KakitaOCU]

1 hour ago, Harad the White said:

Not agreeing with me. It's handled fine in the series, the way Jordan would have wanted. Every male channeler shown, even "young man" is shown as a victim of the Reds, and no manifestations of "madness" except voices and ephemeral companions are shown. Isn't it odd that in a fantasy series with teleportation and magic, the immediate cornclusion of many is: "Voices...must be madness!"? Even non-Book readers don't see it that way.

Unsure if I spoke poorly, I meant the way the Aes Sedai approach the issue in the series.  

 

 

1 hour ago, Harad the White said:

The 'taint is an obstacle to overcome. Not a license for persecution and annihilation. Rand's ascension is a counterpoint to LTT's fate and the Breaking.

Yes, Rand, with Ta'Veren, answers from the Finn and the expertise of a Scholar who also happens to be a prophet figured out how to fix the problem with access to items that were lost and thought destroyed during the breaking.  And it only works because Shadar Logoth exists to work with it.

So the cure to the Taint (Overcoming it as you say) was not possible until close to 1000 years after the breaking, at which point there were no male channelers and no way to properly train a new male channeler if you could find one.  An absolute fear of asking the Finn because it "Touches the shadow" and no Min to combine scholarly knowledge with the ability to read the pattern.

That's like saying Measles was an obstacle to be overcome and mocking people in the 1700s for not just working to overcome it.

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, KakitaOCU said:

That's like saying Measles was an obstacle to be overcome and mocking people in the 1700s for not just working to overcome it.

C'mon, man. The death penalty for measles? I won't have it!

 

But you are right, that IF it were impossible to find a solution, other mitigation was needed. That doesn't make it, necessarily, correct or justified.  Geniuses in our history made progress, to invent and cure things that were "impossible." Moiraine was the person who came along, like a Louis Pasteur with fireballs. This doesn't appear to be a World where things change very rapidly. Think back 3500 in human history, and judge why it took 3500 years for Moiraine to appear.

[Agitel]

1 minute ago, Harad the White said:

C'mon, man. The death penalty for measles? I won't have it!

 

But you are right, that IF it were impossible to find a solution, other mitigation was needed. That doesn't make it, necessarily, correct or justified.  Geniuses in our history made progress, to invent and cure things that were "impossible." Moiraine was the person who came along, like a Louis Pasteur with fireballs. This doesn't appear to be a World where things change very rapidly. Think back 3500 in human history, and judge why it took 3500 years for Moiraine to appear.

 

It took 3500 years for Gitara Moroso to be born and have a foretelling with Moiraine present for it?

[KakitaOCU]

1 minute ago, Harad the White said:

C'mon, man. The death penalty for measles? I won't have it!

 

But you are right, that IF it were impossible to find a solution, other mitigation was needed. That doesn't make it, necessarily, correct or justified.  Geniuses in our history made progress, to invent and cure things that were "impossible." Moiraine was the person who came along, like a Louis Pasteur with fireballs. This doesn't appear to be a World where things change very rapidly. Think back 3500 in human history, and judge why it took 3500 years for Moiraine to appear.

If Measles lead the infected to murder everything around them, yes.

If you want a disease parallel, every male channeler is someone who has been bitten by a zombie.  There will be no cure what-so-ever for 3000 years.  If not dealt with every last person infected with Zombie Plague will spread it and attack others.   And to make the proper comparison to channelers, each infected has access and ability to use launch codes for randomly determined missile silos up to including nukes...

Also, Moraine didn't come along to change it.  Moraine knows the Dragon specifically HAS to be there.  She would have fought him on the Black Tower, I'm pretty sure her and Siuan have conversations about if Rand has to be gentled after the last battle.

She's not here to save male channelers, she's here to make sure one male channeler stays alive to avert the apocalypse.  

If you want a hero for saving the male channeler, look to Cadsuane.

[Agitel]

Yes, Moiraine was not acting on any idea of injustice for male channelers. She had privileged information that the Dragon had been reborn and her mission was entirely on the Dragon due to his role in the Last Battle.

[Harad the White]

9 minutes ago, Agitel said:

It took 3500 years for Gitara Moroso to be born and have a foretelling with Moiraine present for it?

And this was the only path to cure the 'taint? 

 

6 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

If you want a disease parallel, every male channeler is someone who has been bitten by a zombie

I don't remember any zombies struggling to do good. Except mebe in "Shaun Of The Dead."

 

5 minutes ago, Agitel said:

Yes, Moiraine was not acting on any idea of injustice for male channelers.

Nevertheless, male channelers were victims.  If 3500 years of bad business as usual, had continued, the Last Battle would have been lost. Constrain your vision to the time of the DR: Tradition was a losing proposition.

[Agitel]

Tower Law did not mean gentling the Dragon. You're confusing the Vileness for their custom.

 

Also, I never said the gentled men weren't victims. I said that if they were not gentled they would inevitably go mad and cause mass destruction and that severing had only been adopted as a standard practice as a last resort to try to prevent a second breaking after other methods failed. None of that makes them "not victims."

 

10 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

And this was the only path to cure the 'taint? 

 

Shadar Logoth (which did not exist until 1000+ years after the Breaking), the lost Choedan Kal access keys, hints given to Rand by the Finns were all needed, along with an understanding the the evil of Shadar Logoth was capable of noise-cancelling the evil of the Taint (which Rand learned about through his unique wound), and the analysis of a philosopher. These are all chance event crossing at the right place and the right time.

 

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Agitel

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, Agitel said:

which did not exist until 1000+ years after the Breakong,

Ok, we just moved the injustice back 2500 years. Progress!

 

IRL slavery goes back 1000's of years. If it weren't for people like Harriet Beecher Stowe, and Abraham Lincoln it might still be here. There are always opportunities in history to correct injustice. The fact that the some opportunities are not taken, does not correct or justify the injustice. The Universe of Jordan grinds slowly. Maybe if the people of Aridhol had not turned their backs on the World, a different, quicker, and more positive way to cleanse the 'taint would have been made available. Mebe 950 years before SL there were missed opportunities. The Jordan facts are that not a single opportunity was seized in 3500 years. 

[Agitel]

1 minute ago, Harad the White said:

Ok, we just moved the injustice back 2500 years. Progress!

 

IRL slavery goes back 1000's of years. If it weren't for people like Harriet Beecher Stowe, and Abraham Lincoln it might still be here. There are always opportunities in history to correct injustice. The fact that the some opportunities are not taken, does not correct or justify the injustice. The Universe of Jordan grinds slowly. Maybe if the people of Aridhol had not turned their backs on the World, a different, quicker, and more positive way to cleanse the 'taint would have been made available. Mebe 950 years before SL there were missed opportunities. The Jordan facts are that not a single opportunity was seized in 3500 years. 

 

Well, if we're really on it, the access keys were not rediscovered until about a year or two before the taint was cleansed. Same for Rand's wound. 

[Agitel]

2 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

The Jordan facts are that not a single opportunity was seized in 3500 years. 

 

Or more simply that no opportunities were realized.

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, Agitel said:

 

Or more simply that no opportunities were realized.

I contend that "seized" is simpler than "realized." It has less letters and less syllables.

[ArrylT]

2 hours ago, Harad the White said:

And this was the only path to cure the 'taint? 

 

I don't remember any zombies struggling to do good. Except mebe in "Shaun Of The Dead."

 

Nevertheless, male channelers were victims.  If 3500 years of bad business as usual, had continued, the Last Battle would have been lost. Constrain your vision to the time of the DR: Tradition was a losing proposition.

I ZOMBIE has good zombies and I don't mean just good at eating or killing.   They basically created zombies with souls,  provided they got brains frequently enough to keep them from rage mode.  Probably the closest parallel since they still had organizations trying to do away with zombies and zombie organizations trying to take over the world (similar to male Forsaken?)

[Harad the White]

9 hours ago, fra85uk said:

At that suggests me that Laila was a DF (and also the fact that the wolf was feeding on her in the dream).

After watching the recap in Episode 5, I am going to say sincerely: Oh Light, you were totally correct - I absolutely see your point and you've completely changed my mind!

 

It really does look like she is about to chop Perrin.

 

This is ridiculous. Now they are posting (in Series 5 thread) that RJ2 has stated that he "unintentionally" cut the Perrin fight scene to show that: yes it does look like Laila is a DF, but no, she isn't. Then RJ2 says he is "surprised" people think that, even though he is the own who showed the scene like that.

 

So, we just have to accept two contradictory things. 

 

1. Laila is shown as if she is a DF.

2. Laila is not a DF.

 

This does not reflect well on RJ2.

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by Harad the White

[Canukistani]

34 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

After watching the recap in Episode 5, I am going to say sincerely: Oh Light, you were totally correct - I absolutely see your point and you've completely changed my mind!

 

It really does look like she is about to chop Perrin.

 

maybe she's not a Friend of the Dark, but just a regular person with marriage troubles.

my pet theory is she's not in love with Perrin.  She got pregnant by someone else.  Perrin loves her and married her to give her child a family.   She doesnt want to be with Perrin anymore but can't bring herself to break his heart.  Then the Trollocs attacked and once the Trolloc was killed she saw her opportunity to be rid of Perrin and blame it on the Trollocs.   

[Harad the White]

21 minutes ago, Canukistani said:

maybe she's not a Friend of the Dark, but just a regular person with marriage troubles.

my pet theory is she's not in love with Perrin.  She got pregnant by someone else.  Perrin loves her and married her to give her child a family.   She doesnt want to be with Perrin anymore but can't bring herself to break his heart.  Then the Trollocs attacked and once the Trolloc was killed she saw her opportunity to be rid of Perrin and blame it on the Trollocs.   

 

This is an alternate explanation for why Laila wants to murder Perrin. It seems far-fetched but it works logically. RJ2 didn't want her to be a DF, but he wanted her to be a murderer. 

Edited December 3, 2021 by Harad the White

[Canukistani]

11 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

 

Have you read the last several posts between Aus and I?

 

how about you lay off the snark.  did you see the post i made on the other thread in the top quarter of page 7? 

[Harad the White]

Just now, Canukistani said:

how about you lay off the snark.  did you see the post i made on the other thread in the top quarter of page 7? 

I am not snarking you. I first thought your post was unresponsive to the issue. So I sincerely asked if you were up to date. Then I realized there was another idea that warranted a comment, and I changed my response. I welcome the ideas. 

[Arie]

Be nice or I'm going to start hiding more posts!

[expat]

The ironic thing about this whole discussion of the Red Ajah's treatment of male channelers is that they are probably the gentlest of all the known lands/peoples.  Most of the other societies just kill them outright.  For example, the Aiel send them into the blight to kill Sightblinder.  

[Harad the White]

4 hours ago, expat said:

The ironic thing about this whole discussion of the Red Ajah's treatment of male channelers is that they are probably the gentlest of all the known lands/peoples.  Most of the other societies just kill them outright.  For example, the Aiel send them into the blight to kill Sightblinder.  

The Amazon series seems to point in that direction. In the Book, are you referring to the main male channelers, such as those in the BT, not the Forsaken? Being the martyrs of the Aiel is indicative, but does not directly speak to their character. Nevertheless, I'd like to believe it.