Ch..ch..ch..changes!

[Skipp]

18 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Crossed out the incorrect word.  You feel changes are fundamental, others disagree.  

I remember people screaming for blood because Tom Bombadil and Glorfindel were missing from Fellowship of the Ring.

For me a fundamental change has to actually alter the core story and plot.  Rand not being the Dragon would be a fundamental change.  If Moraine comes out of book 5 and takes on Cadsuance role that will be a fundamental change.   

So far the only fundamental change that has happened is Mat and that was out of the hands of the showrunner as far as I can see.

People like to quote LotR as some sort of perfect 1:1 adaption while tearing down others.

 

While I believe LotR is one of the best adaptations ever done it is no where near that. 

 

As Brandon Sanderson used as an example on his podcast.  If you were to take a scale between adaptations with Harry Potter and the Philosophers Stone(100) at one end, the Shining(0) at the other and LotR(50) in the middle.  The Wheel of time(45) would be ever so slightly to the right of Lord of the rings.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Skipp
spelling

[Elder_Haman]

18 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

If there weren't fundamental changes to the story then no one here would be complaining.

Hard disagree. Literature and film are subjective media. Disagreement in a group of book fans about the fidelity of a tv adaptation is inevitable.

[Skipp]

2 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

Ok, so ... Having the first book/season center around the mystery of who might be the Dragon; women can be the Dragon, all five of them together could be the Dragon - doesn't qualify as "core" for you? That, I would argue, is the core of this S1. [and it seems to be working well with non-readers - so I'm not arguing that it's a "wrong" change] but this is definitely NOT the center/main question of EotW. 

 

Not including the prologue (thus far! we may still get it? hopefully...) and setting up the background of the Dragon being LTT reincarnate & why the male side of the OP is tainted isn't "core"? 

 

Not including Elaida (we may never get Elaida because she is likely combined with Liandrin - I know I'm speculating) and what she sees with Rand - the conflict she will have in the Tower. Not "core" to the main story? 

 

Even - telling the story as more of an ensemble from the get-go... Is a fundamental change. EotW is intentionally almost all from Rand - because he's our MAIN character. Not Moiraine. Not Egwene. Not Steppin. 

 

Now, I'm not arguing that this adaptation isn't good, mind you. Some of their ...fundamental changes... are good IMO. For example, having Logain be more of a central character from the get-go. 

But they are, fundamental changes. No? Obviously, some don't think so. But I find it baffling.

And that is what the saying "Can't see the forest for the trees" means.  And that is why we have such differing views on the show.

 

The mystery of who the DR was in the book was present but easy to figure out and so the increased the mystery for the non reader audience.  The idea of the female Dragon in the show is such a minor detail that it doesn't even matter in the grand scheme of the season.

 

Moving the Prologue to another point and time to give show watchers more context, like they did with the fever conversation.

 

But we are just covering the same ground over and over and over again.

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

25 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Synopsis of EotW: A mysterious wizard shows up in a sleep village right before evil monsters attack.  The monsters are after several young people and so the wizard and her bodyguard take the young people away.  They eventually take refuge in a cursed city where one of the young people picks up a cursed item and the group gets separated.  The groups independently find their way to a major city, growing as people before finding out that there is a significant threat to something called the eye of the world.  They then travel the dark of the ways, a corrupted fast travel network, to get to the city of Fal Dara where the wizard leads the people she thinks necessary to the Eye of the World to face the dark.

 

Here's an actual synopsis of EotW.

The Eye of the World | A Wheel of Time Wiki | Fandom

 

Here's another one from our own site:

Book Summary: The Eye of the World - Dragonmount.com

 

Not even close to your version, man. Cutting Elyas, Bornhald, Bayle Domon, Morgase, Elaida, Mordeth, and Caemlyn - pretty massive changes to the EotW ... and the story as a whole [though I don't disagree entirely - I hope we get Caemlyn in S2!]. 

 

Besides the fact that RJ himself said that what he was exploring was: What if you showed up in a small-town, backwoods place and told them that "You're the savior of the world"? He thought they'd be pretty resistant and was exploring with his characters how different people would react. "Who is the Dragon?" ...Mystery ... was never core to his story.

 

Again - I'm not arguing that their changes are wrong - especially since, they aren't trying to adapt EotW ... they're trying to adapt the whole story. Not only that, they're trying to bring in new viewers who don't know or care anything about the books. And they are trying to "show rather then tell". And they are (and have said they are!) intentionally changing things to make it more palatable to a modern audience (like having the possibility of the Dragon being female or "aging up" the characters or giving them different backstories so you can fast-track their development.

 

I think. Hope even. That they are drawing in a bunch of new people - and they like the show. But as for - not getting almost any of the actual scenes - this is a letdown for me. Sooo let's say we got to a season 4 or 5 - and I didn't actually get to "see" Dumai's Wells... I would be majorly bummed!

 

My point was ... even from the video ... simply that they ARE majorly changing things. Jury's out on if "it's a good change, a good change" (quoting Prince John from Robin Hood Men in Tights)

 

Edited December 21, 2021 by Wolfbrother31
I forgot to put my point. I also forgot Mordeth - was disappointed with what they did with SL

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

37 minutes ago, Skipp said:

The idea of the female Dragon in the show is such a minor detail that it doesn't even matter in the grand scheme of the season.

? The whole Tv Season has centered around the mystery of the Dragon ... and that they wanted the audience to think it could be any of the EF5 has been clear to me from the get go (yes, even Nyn!). So it's not a minor detail - it's necessary to their core idea for S1! 

 

Now... I'll concede (and genuinely feel bad for them and us - and hope Barney Harris and his family are ok) that their 2nd largest change ... changes to Matt/Matt having "inherent darkness"/Matt not going with to Fal Dara or the Eye, Matt being pursued by Red ajah? ... isn't their fault. Hopefully they can cleverly - do something - to have him and Fain still have a cool story arc. I don't know. That's tough.

 

I won't concede (and genuinely do not feel bad for them - Sanderson, himself told them not to do it) their changes to Perrin's character. Perrin ax-cidently killing his wife & crushing on Egwene -- wow, pretty much ruined one of my favorite characters! But - to give them some defense - Perrin would be really difficult to bring to the screen because he's SO much in his head. But I do think they're fundamentally getting Perrin "wrong" so far. Now- maybe they'll go and "totally redeem themselves" (quoting from Dumb and Dumber) - and it'll be a great set up for Faile (but I was kinda hoping they cut Faile & just replaced her with Berelain ? ! 

Edited December 21, 2021 by Wolfbrother31
once again forgot a main point

[KakitaOCU]

15 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

I won't concede (and genuinely do not feel bad for them - Sanderson, himself told them not to do it) their changes to Perrin's character. Perrin ax-cidently killing his wife & crushing on Egwene -- wow, pretty much ruined one of my favorite characters! But - to give them some defense - Perrin would be really difficult to bring to the screen because he's SO much in his head. But I do think they're fundamentally getting Perrin "wrong" so far. Now- maybe they'll go and "totally redeem themselves" (quoting from Dumb and Dumber) - and it'll be a great set up for Faile (but I was kinda hoping they cut Faile & just replaced her with Berelain ? ! 

And again with the disingenuous takes.

Sanderson didn't say "Don't have Perrin kill someone in a rage for his character arc"  He specifically said he couldn't see someone getting over killing a spouse, something that's going to vary from person to person.  He wanted them to kill Master Luhhan.

Also, Perrin isn't crushing on Egwene, he looked at her with Rand a few times, Nynaeve read something there and commented out loud, Rand used it to drive a wedge.  All in character for the books.

[Theseus78]

The question of "who is the dragon" was an in-story question in TEotW.  It was one of the 3 boys instead of 4/5/6 however many options the show had, but it was a question (even if it was bloody obvious because of who the POV characters were).

 

Prologue isn't core, and it sounds like we're getting it (just in a different time in the story).  The ideas/seeds that the prologue contain are core, but they aren't all just there in that one scene.

 

Eladia isn't core. Also, no guarantee that she's gone (she just isn't in season 1, and she's definitely not core to Book 1).  There are aspects of her that are closer to core (WT split), and there are aspects that I really hope they bring out (people doing horrible, bad things, and going against Rand who aren't darkfriends).

 

Telling it as an ensemble is a storytelling change, but not a core plot change.

 

While Rand was the main character in TEotW, for tWOT book series as a whole the EF5 are all main characters. 

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

6 minutes ago, Theseus78 said:

The question of "who is the dragon" was an in-story question in TEotW.  It was one of the 3 boys instead of 4/5/6 however many options the show had, but it was a question (even if it was bloody obvious because of who the POV characters were).

 

Prologue isn't core, and it sounds like we're getting it (just in a different time in the story).  The ideas/seeds that the prologue contain are core, but they aren't all just there in that one scene.

 

Eladia isn't core. Also, no guarantee that she's gone (she just isn't in season 1, and she's definitely not core to Book 1).  There are aspects of her that are closer to core (WT split), and there are aspects that I really hope they bring out (people doing horrible, bad things, and going against Rand who aren't darkfriends).

 

Telling it as an ensemble is a storytelling change, but not a core plot change.

 

While Rand was the main character in TEotW, for tWOT book series as a whole the EF5 are all main characters. 

 

All roads lead to Tar Valon? 

 

I honestly, do not understand, what ya'll think of as "core". 

IMO the Prologue is definitely "core" because it immediately introduces us to the significance of the Dragon, that the Dragon is LTT reincarnated, that the Dragon killed his own wife/family, that male aes sedai went insane and broke the world, that the Dragon has a male-channeler nemesis, that Dragonmount is tied to the Dragon,  that the Dark-one wants to break the wheel of time, ect... all from the get-go ... which is ALL very, very much so "core" to the story. And a non-reader who is watching the show - could literally read just the Prologue and then go --- OHHHHH I get it now... (but we may still get the Prologue in the show - which in that case - I would think it fairly clever of the show writers to give us the Prologue in the Season Finale- some writing irony there). 

 

The "Who is the Dragon" was the core question of this TV season (does anybody disagree with that?)- it's definitely NOT "core" in the books (I think we are agreeing on that point? I honestly do not understand a fan who would argue that "who is the Dragon" is a "core question" in the books).

[TheDreadReader]

1 hour ago, Skipp said:

People like to quote LotR as some sort of perfect 1:1 adaption while tearing down others.

 

While I believe LotR is one of the best adaptations ever done it is no where near that. 

 

People have also had 20 years to come to terms with the LOTR adaptation.

 

 

1 hour ago, Skipp said:

As Brandon Sanderson used as an example on his podcast.  If you were to take a scale between adaptations with Harry Potter and the Philosophers Stone(100) at one end, the Shining(0) at the other and LotR(50) in the middle.  The Wheel of time(45) would be ever so slightly to the right of Lord of the rings.

 

 

It can also be a moving target as it goes on.    Just take the elements that many noted as missing from Episode 1 that were included in this episode.  They moved them to place where it made more thematic sense.  Things can be moved forward or backward in time to help make things work.

 

 

[Theseus78]

8 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

All roads lead to Tar Valon? 

 

I honestly, do not understand, what ya'll think of as "core". 

IMO the Prologue is definitely "core" because it immediately introduces us to the significance of the Dragon, that the Dragon is LTT reincarnated, that the Dragon killed his own wife/family, that male aes sedai went insane and broke the world, that the Dragon has a male-channeler nemesis, that Dragonmount is tied to the Dragon,  that the Dark-one wants to break the wheel of time, ect... all from the get-go ... which is ALL very, very much so "core" to the story. And a non-reader who is watching the show - could literally read just the Prologue and then go --- OHHHHH I get it now... (but we may still get the Prologue in the show - which in that case - I would think it fairly clever of the show writers to give us the Prologue in the Season Finale- some writing irony there). 

 

The "Who is the Dragon" was the core question of this TV season (does anybody disagree with that?)- it's definitely NOT "core" in the books (I think we are agreeing on that point? I honestly do not understand a fan who would argue that "who is the Dragon" is a "core question" in the books).

The ideas and themes that the prologue set up are core (the things you mentioned), but I don't think you need the exact scene to set up those themes (especially not as a prologue to the series - it's not structurally core as per being a prologue).

 

I really hope we get it as the cold open on Episode 8.  I think that scene will really set up those ideas and themes.

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

51 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

And again with the disingenuous takes.

Sanderson didn't say "Don't have Perrin kill someone in a rage for his character arc"  He specifically said he couldn't see someone getting over killing a spouse, something that's going to vary from person to person.  He wanted them to kill Master Luhhan.

Also, Perrin isn't crushing on Egwene, he looked at her with Rand a few times, Nynaeve read something there and commented out loud, Rand used it to drive a wedge.  All in character for the books.

 

Disingenuous takes? Here it is again ... anyone here can flip forward to the 27:00 minute mark and listen to it. I do not think it's disingenuous at all to say - "Sanderson said not have Perrin kill his wife." And they did anyways. And he says that they should just injure Luhhan because "will he cross the line" of killing is core to his story arc. 

 

You're right that, that whole scene of the EF4 fight was ... subtle, in suggesting that Perrin is interested in Egwene. But the question is still - why have that be a scene at all? Whether it's EDN pausing to discuss it... or Nae'blis commenting on it ... the show wanted us to ask the question "does Perrin romantically love Egwene?"

 

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

3 minutes ago, Theseus78 said:

The ideas and themes that the prologue set up are core (the things you mentioned), but I don't think you need the exact scene to set up those themes (especially not as a prologue to the series - it's not structurally core as per being a prologue).

 

I really hope we get it as the cold open on Episode 8.  I think that scene will really set up those ideas and themes.

 

This honestly makes me smile ... so if I'm hearing you right ... everything in the Prologue is essential (the ideas) - just not the Prologue itself (rather than an easy to do 4 minute scene they can omit it and use up a bunch of scenes and not give us these necessary ideas from the beginning but rather at different points because they do need to convey all the necessary ideas) - so hopefully we still get the Prologue (but at the end of S1 instead of the beginning)? 

 

If I'm hearing you right. I totally agree ?. 

But then ... I'm just saying ... if "Who is the Dragon?" wasn't your core question - then it makes no sense not to just do the prologue from the get go! 

[Ralph]

I don't think the missing prologue was to disguise the Dragon. Why would it be necessary for that? 

 

I thought it is so we can think Ishamael is the DO until some point in the next episode. (Or maybe even later, like in the books, but I expect it to be near the end of Ep8.) 

 

Which is a necessary change for the switch from book to TV. 

 

Therefore I don't expect it to open Ep8

Edited December 22, 2021 by Ralph

[Ralph]

2 hours ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

Ok, so ... Having the first book/season center around the mystery of who might be the Dragon; women can be the Dragon, all five of them together could be the Dragon - doesn't qualify as "core" for you? That, I would argue, is the core of this S1. [and it seems to be working well with non-readers - so I'm not arguing that it's a "wrong" change] but this is definitely NOT the center/main question of EotW. 

A change of focus not of story. Different possibilities are a difference in background lore, not in the story. 

 

2 hours ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

Not including the prologue (thus far! we may still get it? hopefully...) and setting up the background of the Dragon being LTT reincarnate & why the male side of the OP is tainted isn't "core"? 

To lore, maybe. Though those points have all been brought up in the show. To the story, not at all.

 

2 hours ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

Not including Elaida (we may never get Elaida because she is likely combined with Liandrin - I know I'm speculating) and what she sees with Rand - the conflict she will have in the Tower. Not "core" to the main story? 

No

 

2 hours ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

Even - telling the story as more of an ensemble from the get-go... Is a fundamental change. EotW is intentionally almost all from Rand - because he's our MAIN character. Not Moiraine. Not Egwene. Not Steppin. 

This is interesting, because it is something that changes through the books. But either way doesn't make it a different story, only a different emphasis. 

 

2 hours ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

Now, I'm not arguing that this adaptation isn't good, mind you. Some of their ...fundamental changes... are good IMO. For example, having Logain be more of a central character from the get-go. 

But they are, fundamental changes. No? Obviously, some don't think so. But I find it baffling.

Logain is not more central at all. What happens off screen in the books happens on screen in the show. Plus MLN meet them and he gets gentled before reaching TV. 

[Ralph]

What I feel has been very different storywise:

 

1) telling them they may be the Dragon. I don't like it, but I assume they did it to make it more fathomable to a viewer. TV viewing doesn't have the patience of a book reader usually. 

 

2) taking out Elyas and Perrin's abilities not being explained. I'm pretty sure this will come later. 

 

3) leaving Mat behind. Probably forced. Wafo

 

4) just m&r going to the eye. Have to wafo to judge. This is the biggest so far imo

 

5) Lan not turning down N, but I think he will when M vanishes. And not really a big deal. 

 

In the story summary I don't really see anything else. 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Ralph

[Ralph]

51 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

 

I honestly, do not understand, what ya'll think of as "core". 

IMO the Prologue is definitely "core" because it immediately introduces us to the significance of the Dragon, that the Dragon is LTT reincarnated, that the Dragon killed his own wife/family, that male aes sedai went insane and broke the world, that the Dragon has a male-channeler nemesis, that Dragonmount is tied to the Dragon,  that the Dark-one wants to break the wheel of time, ect... all from the get-go ... which is ALL very, very much so "core" to the story. And a non-reader who is watching the show - could literally read just the Prologue and then go --- OHHHHH I get it now... (but we may still get the Prologue in the show - which in that case - I would think it fairly clever of the show writers to give us the Prologue in the Season Finale- some writing irony there). 

 

 

 

The only point from these that has not been mentioned in the show is the Dragonmount one

[Ralph]

Question 42 - Harriet McDougal's involvement

To what extent has Harriet McDougal been involved with the project?

Judkins

She's a consulting producer so she's been out to Prague to the sets and reads all the scripts and sends me her notes on them. She and Maria are hugely helpful for maintaining the truth of the series and always keep me honest when it comes to things that change too much

 

 

 

Question 39 - Prologue

Will we see the prologue from the Eye of the World on screen in season 1

Judkins

You will hear that phrase

 

 

 

Question 49 - Brandon Sanderson's involvement

How involved, if involved at all, is Sanderson in the writers room?

Judkins

Brandon is hugely helpful. I talked to him before we started Season Two while he was in Prague to get advice and he reads all the scripts and gives notes. He's incredibly thoughtful and understands the process of adaptation and what's required from it. I feel so lucky to have him involved. I would have him do more if I could make him!

 

 

 

Question 3 - Writers' planned changes

How many times did i give you blank stares when discussing possible changes?

Judkins

This one is obviously from Sarah N. There were moments when a thrilled room full of writers would go "we've cracked it! It's amazing! But can 'insert book canon person/place/thing' be 'insert noncanon idea' instead?" And Sarah's resounding, withering stare would tell us to go back to the drawing board. RIP Perrin talking to a bear.

 

 

 

Question 6 - Changes from early drafts

Were there any changes in earlier drafts of scripts that were scrapped in final version?

Judkins

Yes, tons. We are never afraid to try something and see if it works. But then that has to also go through Sarah and Me (I drive the writers as crazy as anyone with sticking to the books). It also then goes to Brandon Sanderson, Harriet McDougal, and Maria Simons, who've been huge helps in checking us and helping us go back to the drawing board on changes (or many times, saying "that works" and giving us permission to release a tiny sigh of relief)

 

 

Question 8 - Book dialogue

Do you attempt to keep book dialogue? Or start from scratch?

Judkins

Every writer receives a document when they begin their script put together by our book expert, Sarah, that breaks down every scene in the episode and gives specific dialogue and scene references from the books for it. Especially for scenes that aren't from the books at all, we will find scenes from the books with the same characters together or talking about the same thing thematically. That said, predictably, almost all the dialogue in the show is not from the books so as to sound as natural as possible with our locations/actors/scenes as they're played.

Question 10 - Difficult necessary changes

Have you made changes that hurt you/Sarah to make, but were necessary for the screen?

Judkins

The writers room floor is littered with my tears. Truly though, I don't want people to be unprepared for how different the show is to the books. To do a proper adaptation, it has to be. As a thought exercise, just imagine we can only do four of the cities from EoTW. So from Emonds Field, Taren Ferry, Baerlon, Shadar Logoth, Whitebridge, Four Kings, Breen's Spring, Caemlyn, Fal Dara, which do you choose? What are the knock-on effects for character and story from the ones you don't go to? Which characters haven't met each other now and how can you reconnect them? We have amazing writers and hugely helpful support in Brandon and Harriet to tackle these changes. But they're not small. Gird your loins, my friends.

 

 

 

Question about deleted scenes^[20]

My Q - it looks like you did a lot more filming in the Two Rivers than we saw in episode 1. Assuming we won't see that content in future episode flashbacks, are there any thoughts/plans to release some of that footage as bonus content at some date TBD?

Rafe Judkins

Yes! I think there are a few deleted scenes headed your way in the coming weeks

 

 

Question about mapping out the series^[27]

My question is about mapping out the series. Do you have an overall structure to the series envisioned in terms of number of seasons and which books will overlap in which season? Totally understand if you can’t get into specifics, I am just fascinated by the process and would love to hear more about it!

Rafe Judkins

Yeah, I have an overall idea, but that's affected in a big way by a couple key things -- 1. episode number per season and 2. actor availability. A lot of the changes we've had to make to my initial plan for the show have been based on those two things.

Question about a scene to film exactly as written^[28]

If you had to choose one scene from the first book to film almost exactly how Jordan wrote it. Which one would you choose?

Rafe Judkins

If it were just me making the show for myself, I'd honestly do the whole Perrin/Egwene ravens/stedding/Elyas sequence. That really hooked me to the books for the first time.

 

 

 

Question on moving things to later^[31]

When you decide something can't make it into the show where it was in the books how do you approach bringing it to the show later in some form?

Rafe Judkins

There's actually a bunch of stuff in Book 1 that we hit in Season 2 already, and things from Books 2 and 3 that we have plans to hit later if we're lucky enough to get there. I think when you're adapting it as a series and have so many production/budgetary constraints, you have to be prepped to remix things a little. It's sadly rare that we can do a scene from the books with the same characters in the same place saying the same lines at the same moment in the books. Often one of those things has to be swapped out

 

 

 

Question about Brandon Sanderson^[39]

Brandon Sanderson has said you and him have agreed on most of the changes to the show except one. Can you tell us what that is?

Rafe Judkins

I think there's more than that! Ha. But Brandon's been amazing through this whole process. He's such a great collaborator, and I will be dead honest when I say that I do more of his notes percentage wise than any other single human being involved with the show.

 

 

Question about the prologue^[46]

What was the rationale behind not having the cold open of the first episode be the original EotW Prologue? Thanks for doing this!

Rafe Judkins

Ha, we had a lot of different versions of how to start the show always, but my personal opinion was that we shouldn't really see this Cold Open until Lews Therin was ready to play a more significant role in the show.

Question about adapting^[47]

2 questions:

1. did you know right when you got the showrunner job that there was going to be these drastic changes to characters and settings? Or did they develop through a committee?
2. a lot of folks who are fans of the book series were expecting a true adaptation of the books to film. And yet said fans got something totally different than the books. Why was it not stated upfront that this would be a retelling of the tale and stating that this was another turning of the wheel? Fans would have been more accepting of this had it been known upfront that these changes would occur if you and others in the know had addressed this up front. The turning of the wheel, differences between the turns of the wheel are set into the actual story, and would have actually supported these changes had they been addressed up front.

Rafe Judkins

We may have said 1000 times that this is not a 1-for-1 adaptation and another turning of the Wheel. It simply is. I hope that you still enjoy though, or that if you don't, you can go back to the books and read again. They make for a great re-read.

 

 

 

Question about Perrin's marriage^[54]

Whose idea was it to have Perrin be married in the first episode? I think the choice was a smart one, but I’m curious as to how that decision came about.

Rafe Judkins

Well, firstly in the longer version of the script I'd had Perrin being the apprentice to the town blacksmith, who he then accidentally killed during the Trolloc attack. It really was important to me that he have an iconic moment of violence in the first episode that would underpin his long term journey with violence and whether he'd choose the axe or the hammer. So I'd made that blacksmith his mom. But as we had to trim a bunch of page length down in the scripts, it became a simpler story to tell it as his wife, and also felt natural that if these characters were in their early 20s in a small mountain village, that one of them likely would be married. There's a scene in the books where Perrin talks about if he'd stayed in the Two Rivers he might've married Laila Dearn, and voila, Laila was born. My only sadness is we couldn't have seen more of her. Helena Westerman who played her was AMAZING

 

 

 

Question about the writing team^[56]

How did you assemble the writing team for this show? What qualities about these writers let you know that they were the perfect fit?

Rafe Judkins

Tried to find a group of diverse thinkers for it -- people who've read all the books, people who read some of the books but dropped out eventually, people who loved fantasy but not Wot, people who don't even know fantasy at all. Also, people who write differently than me, sot aht they could strengthen the overall scripts. It's such a great group, I'd go to war for any of them.

 

 

 

Question about keeping scenes^[63]

I recently read the article where you speak on how much you had to fight to keep the Weep for Manetheren scene in. Are there any other scenes with a similar weight of significance you fought for? Vague details are fine.

Rafe Judkins

There's a Nynaeve/Lan scene that I fought literally every human being on the show and at the network for, so I hope book fans like it, hahaha.

 

 

 

 

 

Question about balancing feedback^[64]

I want to ask how you're balancing all the feedback you're getting with your own vision. Was reading Brandon Sanderson how he has given a lot of feedback, and while not all of it was incorporated, he always felt heard and that you had valid reasons for not listening to some of it. From the outside, it looks like you're balancing it really well, but curious on your insight.

Rafe Judkins

I think the worst showrunners are either insecure or oversecure. You'll either not listen to anything at all or you listen to absolutely everything. I feel relatively secure, so I try to really listen to and value the people around me and their artistic input, but then also stick true to what I believe is the right way to pull this off long term.

 

 

 

Question about the process of making changes^[69]

Can you talk a little about the processes you use to figure out how current changes will affect future seasons?

I'd also love to hear some of your thoughts about making the Emmond's fielders a little older.

Thanks for all your effort with the show. I admit that I'm not in love with every aspect of it (soundtrack, some minor changes), but I'm still having a good time and am optimistic about future episodes, as long as the show keeps being funded.

Rafe Judkins

I have Sarah Nakamura (our incredible WoT goddess) talk me through the long-term ramifications of any changes so that we know what's going to happen. Sometimes to drive her crazy I will send a casual email that's just like -- "Hey, can you work up a long-term ramifications list for if we kill Thom?". And just keep going like it's a totally normal day as she collapses as a human being. Then tell her we're not going to kill him. I think it helps keep her on her toes, but she probably disagrees, haha.

 

 

 

 

Question about pacing^[71]

My biggest concern for the series is that it will move too fast just how GoT season 8 did. Do you have a plan to make sure that the seasons will feel fully fleshed out by the time they end and not rushed? Also by the time the series end do you have an idea of how to end it in a fulfilling way? Thank you and i am loving the show so far with just this one concern.

Rafe Judkins

Yeah, it was certainly a worry of mine that the show moves too fast, but I think that hopefully that will help give momentum to non-readers as they get through some of the stuff that is more similar to other fantasy projects and start to get to dip into the really unique WoT stuff. Throughout S1 as well, we do always try to find times to stop down and check in with the characters emotionally, as that's the most important thing to understanding the show.

 

 

 

Question about critical feedback^[74]

Question on the critical feedback from reviewers :

Are you aware of the large amount of negative reviews from top critics, and what their main critiques are? What have you learned from them and what are you doing to resolve these complaints for future seasons?

Putting aside the ones who are comparing it to game of thrones or just hate fantasy, many of them complain about pacing being too fast, packed with too many plot points in each episode, and most importantly, the character development is lacking and viewers are not invested in them (making key events less impactful).

Rafe Judkins

Yeah, I think it's always important to hear people as they take in the show and comment on it, but not be chasing approval. If you try to make a show that EVERYONE likes, you'll have an actual pile of trash at the end. Better to make a show that some people truly love (even if others think it's a pile of trash ha). In terms of pacing, it's a balance you have to strike. We as creatives are always wanting more time to intro the characters, spend time with them, understand their emotions, etc. And the network will want the show to be brisk and pace-y so that no one ever has a chance to turn it off. Both things are valuable, and maybe Amazon was right about pace as the first three episodes of WoT have one of their highest completion-rates in history, which is perhaps the most important single piece of data on a tv show today.

[Ralph]

Just now, Ralph said:

Question 42 - Harriet McDougal's involvement

To what extent has Harriet McDougal been involved with the project?

Judkins

She's a consulting producer so she's been out to Prague to the sets and reads all the scripts and sends me her notes on them. She and Maria are hugely helpful for maintaining the truth of the series and always keep me honest when it comes to things that change too much

 

 

 

 

Question 39 - Prologue

Will we see the prologue from the Eye of the World on screen in season 1

Judkins

You will hear that phrase

 

 

 

Question 49 - Brandon Sanderson's involvement

How involved, if involved at all, is Sanderson in the writers room?

Judkins

Brandon is hugely helpful. I talked to him before we started Season Two while he was in Prague to get advice and he reads all the scripts and gives notes. He's incredibly thoughtful and understands the process of adaptation and what's required from it. I feel so lucky to have him involved. I would have him do more if I could make him!

 

 

 

Question 3 - Writers' planned changes

How many times did i give you blank stares when discussing possible changes?

Judkins

This one is obviously from Sarah N. There were moments when a thrilled room full of writers would go "we've cracked it! It's amazing! But can 'insert book canon person/place/thing' be 'insert noncanon idea' instead?" And Sarah's resounding, withering stare would tell us to go back to the drawing board. RIP Perrin talking to a bear.

 

 

 

Question 6 - Changes from early drafts

Were there any changes in earlier drafts of scripts that were scrapped in final version?

Judkins

Yes, tons. We are never afraid to try something and see if it works. But then that has to also go through Sarah and Me (I drive the writers as crazy as anyone with sticking to the books). It also then goes to Brandon Sanderson, Harriet McDougal, and Maria Simons, who've been huge helps in checking us and helping us go back to the drawing board on changes (or many times, saying "that works" and giving us permission to release a tiny sigh of relief)

 

 

Question 8 - Book dialogue

Do you attempt to keep book dialogue? Or start from scratch?

Judkins

Every writer receives a document when they begin their script put together by our book expert, Sarah, that breaks down every scene in the episode and gives specific dialogue and scene references from the books for it. Especially for scenes that aren't from the books at all, we will find scenes from the books with the same characters together or talking about the same thing thematically. That said, predictably, almost all the dialogue in the show is not from the books so as to sound as natural as possible with our locations/actors/scenes as they're played.

Question 10 - Difficult necessary changes

Have you made changes that hurt you/Sarah to make, but were necessary for the screen?

Judkins

The writers room floor is littered with my tears. Truly though, I don't want people to be unprepared for how different the show is to the books. To do a proper adaptation, it has to be. As a thought exercise, just imagine we can only do four of the cities from EoTW. So from Emonds Field, Taren Ferry, Baerlon, Shadar Logoth, Whitebridge, Four Kings, Breen's Spring, Caemlyn, Fal Dara, which do you choose? What are the knock-on effects for character and story from the ones you don't go to? Which characters haven't met each other now and how can you reconnect them? We have amazing writers and hugely helpful support in Brandon and Harriet to tackle these changes. But they're not small. Gird your loins, my friends.

 

 

 

Question about deleted scenes^[20]

My Q - it looks like you did a lot more filming in the Two Rivers than we saw in episode 1. Assuming we won't see that content in future episode flashbacks, are there any thoughts/plans to release some of that footage as bonus content at some date TBD?

Rafe Judkins

Yes! I think there are a few deleted scenes headed your way in the coming weeks

 

 

Question about mapping out the series^[27]

My question is about mapping out the series. Do you have an overall structure to the series envisioned in terms of number of seasons and which books will overlap in which season? Totally understand if you can’t get into specifics, I am just fascinated by the process and would love to hear more about it!

Rafe Judkins

Yeah, I have an overall idea, but that's affected in a big way by a couple key things -- 1. episode number per season and 2. actor availability. A lot of the changes we've had to make to my initial plan for the show have been based on those two things.

Question about a scene to film exactly as written^[28]

If you had to choose one scene from the first book to film almost exactly how Jordan wrote it. Which one would you choose?

Rafe Judkins

If it were just me making the show for myself, I'd honestly do the whole Perrin/Egwene ravens/stedding/Elyas sequence. That really hooked me to the books for the first time.

 

 

 

Question on moving things to later^[31]

When you decide something can't make it into the show where it was in the books how do you approach bringing it to the show later in some form?

Rafe Judkins

There's actually a bunch of stuff in Book 1 that we hit in Season 2 already, and things from Books 2 and 3 that we have plans to hit later if we're lucky enough to get there. I think when you're adapting it as a series and have so many production/budgetary constraints, you have to be prepped to remix things a little. It's sadly rare that we can do a scene from the books with the same characters in the same place saying the same lines at the same moment in the books. Often one of those things has to be swapped out

 

 

 

Question about Brandon Sanderson^[39]

Brandon Sanderson has said you and him have agreed on most of the changes to the show except one. Can you tell us what that is?

Rafe Judkins

I think there's more than that! Ha. But Brandon's been amazing through this whole process. He's such a great collaborator, and I will be dead honest when I say that I do more of his notes percentage wise than any other single human being involved with the show.

 

 

Question about the prologue^[46]

What was the rationale behind not having the cold open of the first episode be the original EotW Prologue? Thanks for doing this!

Rafe Judkins

Ha, we had a lot of different versions of how to start the show always, but my personal opinion was that we shouldn't really see this Cold Open until Lews Therin was ready to play a more significant role in the show.

Question about adapting^[47]

2 questions:

1. did you know right when you got the showrunner job that there was going to be these drastic changes to characters and settings? Or did they develop through a committee?
2. a lot of folks who are fans of the book series were expecting a true adaptation of the books to film. And yet said fans got something totally different than the books. Why was it not stated upfront that this would be a retelling of the tale and stating that this was another turning of the wheel? Fans would have been more accepting of this had it been known upfront that these changes would occur if you and others in the know had addressed this up front. The turning of the wheel, differences between the turns of the wheel are set into the actual story, and would have actually supported these changes had they been addressed up front.

Rafe Judkins

We may have said 1000 times that this is not a 1-for-1 adaptation and another turning of the Wheel. It simply is. I hope that you still enjoy though, or that if you don't, you can go back to the books and read again. They make for a great re-read.

 

 

 

Question about Perrin's marriage^[54]

Whose idea was it to have Perrin be married in the first episode? I think the choice was a smart one, but I’m curious as to how that decision came about.

Rafe Judkins

Well, firstly in the longer version of the script I'd had Perrin being the apprentice to the town blacksmith, who he then accidentally killed during the Trolloc attack. It really was important to me that he have an iconic moment of violence in the first episode that would underpin his long term journey with violence and whether he'd choose the axe or the hammer. So I'd made that blacksmith his mom. But as we had to trim a bunch of page length down in the scripts, it became a simpler story to tell it as his wife, and also felt natural that if these characters were in their early 20s in a small mountain village, that one of them likely would be married. There's a scene in the books where Perrin talks about if he'd stayed in the Two Rivers he might've married Laila Dearn, and voila, Laila was born. My only sadness is we couldn't have seen more of her. Helena Westerman who played her was AMAZING

 

 

 

Question about the writing team^[56]

How did you assemble the writing team for this show? What qualities about these writers let you know that they were the perfect fit?

Rafe Judkins

Tried to find a group of diverse thinkers for it -- people who've read all the books, people who read some of the books but dropped out eventually, people who loved fantasy but not Wot, people who don't even know fantasy at all. Also, people who write differently than me, sot aht they could strengthen the overall scripts. It's such a great group, I'd go to war for any of them.

 

 

 

Question about keeping scenes^[63]

I recently read the article where you speak on how much you had to fight to keep the Weep for Manetheren scene in. Are there any other scenes with a similar weight of significance you fought for? Vague details are fine.

Rafe Judkins

There's a Nynaeve/Lan scene that I fought literally every human being on the show and at the network for, so I hope book fans like it, hahaha.

 

 

 

 

 

Question about balancing feedback^[64]

I want to ask how you're balancing all the feedback you're getting with your own vision. Was reading Brandon Sanderson how he has given a lot of feedback, and while not all of it was incorporated, he always felt heard and that you had valid reasons for not listening to some of it. From the outside, it looks like you're balancing it really well, but curious on your insight.

Rafe Judkins

I think the worst showrunners are either insecure or oversecure. You'll either not listen to anything at all or you listen to absolutely everything. I feel relatively secure, so I try to really listen to and value the people around me and their artistic input, but then also stick true to what I believe is the right way to pull this off long term.

 

 

 

Question about the process of making changes^[69]

Can you talk a little about the processes you use to figure out how current changes will affect future seasons?

I'd also love to hear some of your thoughts about making the Emmond's fielders a little older.

Thanks for all your effort with the show. I admit that I'm not in love with every aspect of it (soundtrack, some minor changes), but I'm still having a good time and am optimistic about future episodes, as long as the show keeps being funded.

Rafe Judkins

I have Sarah Nakamura (our incredible WoT goddess) talk me through the long-term ramifications of any changes so that we know what's going to happen. Sometimes to drive her crazy I will send a casual email that's just like -- "Hey, can you work up a long-term ramifications list for if we kill Thom?". And just keep going like it's a totally normal day as she collapses as a human being. Then tell her we're not going to kill him. I think it helps keep her on her toes, but she probably disagrees, haha.

 

 

 

 

Question about pacing^[71]

My biggest concern for the series is that it will move too fast just how GoT season 8 did. Do you have a plan to make sure that the seasons will feel fully fleshed out by the time they end and not rushed? Also by the time the series end do you have an idea of how to end it in a fulfilling way? Thank you and i am loving the show so far with just this one concern.

Rafe Judkins

Yeah, it was certainly a worry of mine that the show moves too fast, but I think that hopefully that will help give momentum to non-readers as they get through some of the stuff that is more similar to other fantasy projects and start to get to dip into the really unique WoT stuff. Throughout S1 as well, we do always try to find times to stop down and check in with the characters emotionally, as that's the most important thing to understanding the show.

 

 

 

Question about critical feedback^[74]

Question on the critical feedback from reviewers :

Are you aware of the large amount of negative reviews from top critics, and what their main critiques are? What have you learned from them and what are you doing to resolve these complaints for future seasons?

Putting aside the ones who are comparing it to game of thrones or just hate fantasy, many of them complain about pacing being too fast, packed with too many plot points in each episode, and most importantly, the character development is lacking and viewers are not invested in them (making key events less impactful).

Rafe Judkins

Yeah, I think it's always important to hear people as they take in the show and comment on it, but not be chasing approval. If you try to make a show that EVERYONE likes, you'll have an actual pile of trash at the end. Better to make a show that some people truly love (even if others think it's a pile of trash ha). In terms of pacing, it's a balance you have to strike. We as creatives are always wanting more time to intro the characters, spend time with them, understand their emotions, etc. And the network will want the show to be brisk and pace-y so that no one ever has a chance to turn it off. Both things are valuable, and maybe Amazon was right about pace as the first three episodes of WoT have one of their highest completion-rates in history, which is perhaps the most important single piece of data on a tv show today.

A few relevant and interesting quotes from RJII. Sorry about the formatting I can't see how to do it

[DaddyFinn]

5 hours ago, Ralph said:

Question 42 - Harriet McDougal's involvement

To what extent has Harriet McDougal been involved with the project?

Judkins

She's a consulting producer so she's been out to Prague to the sets and reads all the scripts and sends me her notes on them. She and Maria are hugely helpful for maintaining the truth of the series and always keep me honest when it comes to things that change too much

 

 

 

 

Question 39 - Prologue

Will we see the prologue from the Eye of the World on screen in season 1

Judkins

You will hear that phrase

 

 

 

Question 49 - Brandon Sanderson's involvement

How involved, if involved at all, is Sanderson in the writers room?

Judkins

Brandon is hugely helpful. I talked to him before we started Season Two while he was in Prague to get advice and he reads all the scripts and gives notes. He's incredibly thoughtful and understands the process of adaptation and what's required from it. I feel so lucky to have him involved. I would have him do more if I could make him!

 

 

 

Question 3 - Writers' planned changes

How many times did i give you blank stares when discussing possible changes?

Judkins

This one is obviously from Sarah N. There were moments when a thrilled room full of writers would go "we've cracked it! It's amazing! But can 'insert book canon person/place/thing' be 'insert noncanon idea' instead?" And Sarah's resounding, withering stare would tell us to go back to the drawing board. RIP Perrin talking to a bear.

 

 

 

Question 6 - Changes from early drafts

Were there any changes in earlier drafts of scripts that were scrapped in final version?

Judkins

Yes, tons. We are never afraid to try something and see if it works. But then that has to also go through Sarah and Me (I drive the writers as crazy as anyone with sticking to the books). It also then goes to Brandon Sanderson, Harriet McDougal, and Maria Simons, who've been huge helps in checking us and helping us go back to the drawing board on changes (or many times, saying "that works" and giving us permission to release a tiny sigh of relief)

 

 

Question 8 - Book dialogue

Do you attempt to keep book dialogue? Or start from scratch?

Judkins

Every writer receives a document when they begin their script put together by our book expert, Sarah, that breaks down every scene in the episode and gives specific dialogue and scene references from the books for it. Especially for scenes that aren't from the books at all, we will find scenes from the books with the same characters together or talking about the same thing thematically. That said, predictably, almost all the dialogue in the show is not from the books so as to sound as natural as possible with our locations/actors/scenes as they're played.

Question 10 - Difficult necessary changes

Have you made changes that hurt you/Sarah to make, but were necessary for the screen?

Judkins

The writers room floor is littered with my tears. Truly though, I don't want people to be unprepared for how different the show is to the books. To do a proper adaptation, it has to be. As a thought exercise, just imagine we can only do four of the cities from EoTW. So from Emonds Field, Taren Ferry, Baerlon, Shadar Logoth, Whitebridge, Four Kings, Breen's Spring, Caemlyn, Fal Dara, which do you choose? What are the knock-on effects for character and story from the ones you don't go to? Which characters haven't met each other now and how can you reconnect them? We have amazing writers and hugely helpful support in Brandon and Harriet to tackle these changes. But they're not small. Gird your loins, my friends.

 

 

 

Question about deleted scenes^[20]

My Q - it looks like you did a lot more filming in the Two Rivers than we saw in episode 1. Assuming we won't see that content in future episode flashbacks, are there any thoughts/plans to release some of that footage as bonus content at some date TBD?

Rafe Judkins

Yes! I think there are a few deleted scenes headed your way in the coming weeks

 

 

Question about mapping out the series^[27]

My question is about mapping out the series. Do you have an overall structure to the series envisioned in terms of number of seasons and which books will overlap in which season? Totally understand if you can’t get into specifics, I am just fascinated by the process and would love to hear more about it!

Rafe Judkins

Yeah, I have an overall idea, but that's affected in a big way by a couple key things -- 1. episode number per season and 2. actor availability. A lot of the changes we've had to make to my initial plan for the show have been based on those two things.

Question about a scene to film exactly as written^[28]

If you had to choose one scene from the first book to film almost exactly how Jordan wrote it. Which one would you choose?

Rafe Judkins

If it were just me making the show for myself, I'd honestly do the whole Perrin/Egwene ravens/stedding/Elyas sequence. That really hooked me to the books for the first time.

 

 

 

Question on moving things to later^[31]

When you decide something can't make it into the show where it was in the books how do you approach bringing it to the show later in some form?

Rafe Judkins

There's actually a bunch of stuff in Book 1 that we hit in Season 2 already, and things from Books 2 and 3 that we have plans to hit later if we're lucky enough to get there. I think when you're adapting it as a series and have so many production/budgetary constraints, you have to be prepped to remix things a little. It's sadly rare that we can do a scene from the books with the same characters in the same place saying the same lines at the same moment in the books. Often one of those things has to be swapped out

 

 

 

Question about Brandon Sanderson^[39]

Brandon Sanderson has said you and him have agreed on most of the changes to the show except one. Can you tell us what that is?

Rafe Judkins

I think there's more than that! Ha. But Brandon's been amazing through this whole process. He's such a great collaborator, and I will be dead honest when I say that I do more of his notes percentage wise than any other single human being involved with the show.

 

 

Question about the prologue^[46]

What was the rationale behind not having the cold open of the first episode be the original EotW Prologue? Thanks for doing this!

Rafe Judkins

Ha, we had a lot of different versions of how to start the show always, but my personal opinion was that we shouldn't really see this Cold Open until Lews Therin was ready to play a more significant role in the show.

Question about adapting^[47]

2 questions:

1. did you know right when you got the showrunner job that there was going to be these drastic changes to characters and settings? Or did they develop through a committee?
2. a lot of folks who are fans of the book series were expecting a true adaptation of the books to film. And yet said fans got something totally different than the books. Why was it not stated upfront that this would be a retelling of the tale and stating that this was another turning of the wheel? Fans would have been more accepting of this had it been known upfront that these changes would occur if you and others in the know had addressed this up front. The turning of the wheel, differences between the turns of the wheel are set into the actual story, and would have actually supported these changes had they been addressed up front.

Rafe Judkins

We may have said 1000 times that this is not a 1-for-1 adaptation and another turning of the Wheel. It simply is. I hope that you still enjoy though, or that if you don't, you can go back to the books and read again. They make for a great re-read.

 

 

 

Question about Perrin's marriage^[54]

Whose idea was it to have Perrin be married in the first episode? I think the choice was a smart one, but I’m curious as to how that decision came about.

Rafe Judkins

Well, firstly in the longer version of the script I'd had Perrin being the apprentice to the town blacksmith, who he then accidentally killed during the Trolloc attack. It really was important to me that he have an iconic moment of violence in the first episode that would underpin his long term journey with violence and whether he'd choose the axe or the hammer. So I'd made that blacksmith his mom. But as we had to trim a bunch of page length down in the scripts, it became a simpler story to tell it as his wife, and also felt natural that if these characters were in their early 20s in a small mountain village, that one of them likely would be married. There's a scene in the books where Perrin talks about if he'd stayed in the Two Rivers he might've married Laila Dearn, and voila, Laila was born. My only sadness is we couldn't have seen more of her. Helena Westerman who played her was AMAZING

 

 

 

Question about the writing team^[56]

How did you assemble the writing team for this show? What qualities about these writers let you know that they were the perfect fit?

Rafe Judkins

Tried to find a group of diverse thinkers for it -- people who've read all the books, people who read some of the books but dropped out eventually, people who loved fantasy but not Wot, people who don't even know fantasy at all. Also, people who write differently than me, sot aht they could strengthen the overall scripts. It's such a great group, I'd go to war for any of them.

 

 

 

Question about keeping scenes^[63]

I recently read the article where you speak on how much you had to fight to keep the Weep for Manetheren scene in. Are there any other scenes with a similar weight of significance you fought for? Vague details are fine.

Rafe Judkins

There's a Nynaeve/Lan scene that I fought literally every human being on the show and at the network for, so I hope book fans like it, hahaha.

 

 

 

 

 

Question about balancing feedback^[64]

I want to ask how you're balancing all the feedback you're getting with your own vision. Was reading Brandon Sanderson how he has given a lot of feedback, and while not all of it was incorporated, he always felt heard and that you had valid reasons for not listening to some of it. From the outside, it looks like you're balancing it really well, but curious on your insight.

Rafe Judkins

I think the worst showrunners are either insecure or oversecure. You'll either not listen to anything at all or you listen to absolutely everything. I feel relatively secure, so I try to really listen to and value the people around me and their artistic input, but then also stick true to what I believe is the right way to pull this off long term.

 

 

 

Question about the process of making changes^[69]

Can you talk a little about the processes you use to figure out how current changes will affect future seasons?

I'd also love to hear some of your thoughts about making the Emmond's fielders a little older.

Thanks for all your effort with the show. I admit that I'm not in love with every aspect of it (soundtrack, some minor changes), but I'm still having a good time and am optimistic about future episodes, as long as the show keeps being funded.

Rafe Judkins

I have Sarah Nakamura (our incredible WoT goddess) talk me through the long-term ramifications of any changes so that we know what's going to happen. Sometimes to drive her crazy I will send a casual email that's just like -- "Hey, can you work up a long-term ramifications list for if we kill Thom?". And just keep going like it's a totally normal day as she collapses as a human being. Then tell her we're not going to kill him. I think it helps keep her on her toes, but she probably disagrees, haha.

 

 

 

 

Question about pacing^[71]

My biggest concern for the series is that it will move too fast just how GoT season 8 did. Do you have a plan to make sure that the seasons will feel fully fleshed out by the time they end and not rushed? Also by the time the series end do you have an idea of how to end it in a fulfilling way? Thank you and i am loving the show so far with just this one concern.

Rafe Judkins

Yeah, it was certainly a worry of mine that the show moves too fast, but I think that hopefully that will help give momentum to non-readers as they get through some of the stuff that is more similar to other fantasy projects and start to get to dip into the really unique WoT stuff. Throughout S1 as well, we do always try to find times to stop down and check in with the characters emotionally, as that's the most important thing to understanding the show.

 

 

 

Question about critical feedback^[74]

Question on the critical feedback from reviewers :

Are you aware of the large amount of negative reviews from top critics, and what their main critiques are? What have you learned from them and what are you doing to resolve these complaints for future seasons?

Putting aside the ones who are comparing it to game of thrones or just hate fantasy, many of them complain about pacing being too fast, packed with too many plot points in each episode, and most importantly, the character development is lacking and viewers are not invested in them (making key events less impactful).

Rafe Judkins

Yeah, I think it's always important to hear people as they take in the show and comment on it, but not be chasing approval. If you try to make a show that EVERYONE likes, you'll have an actual pile of trash at the end. Better to make a show that some people truly love (even if others think it's a pile of trash ha). In terms of pacing, it's a balance you have to strike. We as creatives are always wanting more time to intro the characters, spend time with them, understand their emotions, etc. And the network will want the show to be brisk and pace-y so that no one ever has a chance to turn it off. Both things are valuable, and maybe Amazon was right about pace as the first three episodes of WoT have one of their highest completion-rates in history, which is perhaps the most important single piece of data on a tv show today.

This quote is.. interesting to read on mobile ?

[notpropaganda73]

14 hours ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

This is interesting too. 

Just about all of these actors are saying - when I got the role I started reading the books - but then had to stop because the scripts for the show were so different! 

Again, I find this incredibly disappointing.

But for those who think they are trying to stick to ... even the "spirit of the books" ... this would be objective evidence that you're wrong. The actors themselves are saying ... the show and the books are SO different and there are SO many changes that we can't reconcile our book character with the show character.

 

 

 

That's not what I took from them at all. Daniel Henney and Zoe Robins said they began reading the books but that the scripts coming through were different, yes, but more importantly - if you know where your character is going to end up 14 books away, will that impact their performance now? I found it interesting that Josha has gone all the way through, every actor has different processes sure, but what if Josha starts exhibiting a character trait from Rand that we wouldn't expect to see until much later for example? Or will he use the knowledge of where Rand ends up to lay some small hints now? It's interesting to think about for me and like I said, what you've taken from their answers is completely different. 

 

[DaddyFinn]

In the new york comic con panel Josha was in book 11 and Madeleine&Zoe just a couple books behind IIRC

 

https://www.wotseries.com/2021/10/13/new-york-city-comic-con-2021-full-wheel-of-time-qa/

 

Quote

Amy: Another one for the group and you know there are 14 books, it’s a pretty massive series and this is not a test at all, but I’m curious who has like who’s the furthest along in reading the books?

Rosamund: Josha

 

Daniel: Madeleine

 

Josha: I think it’s–

 

Amy: How many have you read, Josha?

 

Josha: I’m at 11 now. I’ve got it here actually. [shows copy of Knife of Dreams]

 

Amy: Oh, you’re here like, “I was doing this before we started.” Wow. That is several thousand pages.

 

Josha: I know. (laughter)

 

Zoë: Maddie and I are just behind him.

 

Amy: Oh you’re right there. Well, if you just steal his book, you’ll get ahead. So, but Josha, I’m curious with 11 books and, I know you’re filming Season Two, but is it hard to have all this book knowledge in your head and all the characters and then come to set? And you’re playing a character like this? Is it trouble? I guess, do you have trouble dissociating between books and work?

 

Josha: Yeah, I guess when we first started — like the first few episodes, new scripts would come in every day, and I feel like… we all started reading the books — then, it could be a bit confusing at times, but most of the time it’s truly a gift to have so much material to sink your teeth in. And I’m looking at the book the whole time because it’s here. But, um, yeah, I don’t know, it’s just… it’s amazing to get to understand the world of the Wheel of Time with its different beliefs, its different cultures, with different people in all the different places. And then, of course, the great arc of Rand and trying to understand his character, to see where he goes, what his state of mind is, state of body even. And that’s why I love to read the books. And it’s a pretty big mountain to climb, but I feel I’m almost on the top of the Mount Everest, and I guess the view from up there must be pretty amazing. Yeah.

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by DaddyFinn

[king of nowhere]

16 hours ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

Here's an actual synopsis of EotW.

The Eye of the World | A Wheel of Time Wiki | Fandom

 

Here's another one from our own site:

Book Summary: The Eye of the World - Dragonmount.com

you're not very clear on the difference between synopsis and summary, aren't you?

 

15 hours ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 and it'll be a great set up for Faile (but I was kinda hoping they cut Faile & just replaced her with Berelain ? ! 

so, it's all right to make big, radical changes, as long as they are for stuff that you, personally, disliked in the books?

 

but i'm with you there. I'm all for berelain. perrin should have picked her the moment faile started getting violent with him. what they say to women about violent men goes for men with violent women too.

14 hours ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

IMO the Prologue is definitely "core" because it immediately introduces us to the significance of the Dragon, that the Dragon is LTT reincarnated, that the Dragon killed his own wife/family, that male aes sedai went insane and broke the world, that the Dragon has a male-channeler nemesis, that Dragonmount is tied to the Dragon,  that the Dark-one wants to break the wheel of time, ect... all from the get-go ... which is ALL very, very much so "core" to the story.

does the prologue actually do that?

because i agree that all that is core to the story. but the first time i read the prologue, it was super duper confusing and i understand nothing of it. i didn't get the prologue until i was past book 4 or 5.

and i'm not the only one. the prologue is very divisive, some say it was a great way to introduce the story, others say it was too obscure.

but people already complain that the show is not explaining stuff well enough; imagine if they had started with the prologue

 

 

 

Now, back on the original topic of changes you liked:

I really liked the blood snow scene, with tam helping tigraine instead of just finding the baby. it's a powerful moment.

[DaddyFinn]

11 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

I really liked the blood snow scene, with tam helping tigraine instead of just finding the baby. it's a powerful moment.

I cry everytime when Rand has been born and Tam cuts his umbilical cord and Tam's little smile fades away when Tigraine dies. That's just so sad. ?

[DermidAjala]

I got spoiled for the finale >_<

 

Spoiler

This thread is going to become very very busy.

 

[Mrs. Yojimbo]

16 hours ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

IMO the Prologue is definitely "core" because it immediately introduces us to the significance of the Dragon, that the Dragon is LTT reincarnated, that the Dragon killed his own wife/family, that male aes sedai went insane and broke the world, that the Dragon has a male-channeler nemesis, that Dragonmount is tied to the Dragon,  that the Dark-one wants to break the wheel of time, ect... all from the get-go ... which is ALL very, very much so "core" to the story. And a non-reader who is watching the show - could literally read just the Prologue and then go --- OHHHHH I get it now...

 

YES!  This non-reader complained to her reader husband that the show hasn't effectively presented what The Big Bad is or who/what the Dragon Reborn is/might be. (And before anyone starts listing the times it's been mentioned: I get that it IS mentioned; I'm saying it just hasn't been described or shown in a way that inspires fear or dread to the viewer.)

 

But then I started to read the first book, and right there in the prologue was everything I was missing: the primary conflict in a nutshell, the horrify possible consequences of the Dragon Reborn. Context.