I'm out

[DojoToad]

After watching each of the the first 4 episodes twice.  I'm done.  I gave it a fair shot.

 

I liked some changes.  Hated others.  Then also the changes made for no apparent reason.

 

What put me over the edge though was the 'battle' scene.  These actors have had minimal weapons training and it showed.  One from Logain's side was holding an axe that looked like it was just taken out of the plastic from Amazon - not a scrape on it - pristine.  The Warders looked just as graceless as the other side.

 

I hope those of you that like it continue to get what you want, but for me it does not appear that the show will meet my expectations.  That's fine - I still have the books.

 

I'll check in to see how it is going.  Thanks for all the conversations and perspectives.  I've learned a lot through our discussions.

 

[Elder_Haman]

Sorry it didn’t do it for you. 

[Maximillion]

I feel the same as you Dojo, however I will keep watching, hoping beyond hope that Rafe is fired and a proper show runner rescues the show in season two with some emergency editing and does a better job on season 3.

 

On your axe comment - did you see the Warders axes? - my god they looked SO plastic.  That was another laughing moment for me in E4.

[ArrylT]

3 hours ago, DojoToad said:

After watching each of the the first 4 episodes twice.  I'm done.  I gave it a fair shot.

 

I liked some changes.  Hated others.  Then also the changes made for no apparent reason.

 

What put me over the edge though was the 'battle' scene.  These actors have had minimal weapons training and it showed.  One from Logain's side was holding an axe that looked like it was just taken out of the plastic from Amazon - not a scrape on it - pristine.  The Warders looked just as graceless as the other side.

 

I hope those of you that like it continue to get what you want, but for me it does not appear that the show will meet my expectations.  That's fine - I still have the books.

 

I'll check in to see how it is going.  Thanks for all the conversations and perspectives.  I've learned a lot through our discussions.

 

 

Just wanted to say that from the brief time I have had the pleasure of being a part of DragonMount, I really appreciated your POV re: tv show and always felt that it came from a place of honesty.   Like others, I am sorry that it does not give you enjoyment.     There are bits in every episode that do bother me (although a lot less than some other fantasy shows/movies have been) - simply on the whole it is a win for me.   Hopefully down the road there may come a time when you'll find enjoyment from a new perspective but obviously until then the books will always be there.  Tai'Shar DojoToad.

[JJLXL]

I mean, they've changed enough so far that a lot of Warder weapons could be power wrought. 

Spoiler

That talent is lost in the books

, but not necessarily in the show.  That means they would pretty much forever remain pristine as they day they were made.  Also, Warders would have the most costly weapons, made by the best smiths in Tar Valon. 

 

I've given up on the show being like the books.  It's merely an interpretation at this point.

 

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by JJLXL

[DojoToad]

5 hours ago, ArrylT said:

 

Just wanted to say that from the brief time I have had the pleasure of being a part of DragonMount, I really appreciated your POV re: tv show and always felt that it came from a place of honesty.   Like others, I am sorry that it does not give you enjoyment.     There are bits in every episode that do bother me (although a lot less than some other fantasy shows/movies have been) - simply on the whole it is a win for me.   Hopefully down the road there may come a time when you'll find enjoyment from a new perspective but obviously until then the books will always be there.  Tai'Shar DojoToad.

Thank you for the kind words.  I was so excited for this show for so long, talked it up at work and with other friends.  Just couldn't get past the 'it's a new turning' or 'it's an acquired taste'.  But that's alright the show wasn't made for me. Tai'Shar DragonMount!

[DojoToad]

5 hours ago, JJLXL said:

I mean, they've changed enough so far that a lot of Warder weapons could be power wrought. 

  Hide contents

That talent is lost in the books

, but not necessarily in the show.  That means they would pretty much forever remain pristine as they day they were made.  Also, Warders would have the most costly weapons, made by the best smiths in Tar Valon. 

 

I've given up on the show being like the books.  It's merely an interpretation at this point.

 

 

I was referring to an axe carried by one of Logain's men - much less likely to be power wrought.  Looked like something bought on Amazon for $30.  And the fight choreography was awful to me - the final straw.  Continue to enjoy yourself for as long as you can!

[Zarathustra]

Yeah, I went ahead and watched the 4th episode.  Among other things (the battle and the hand axes were almost enough);  Logain thinking that Nyn is the DR just drove the spear into the Trolloc's heart for me.

[CaddySedai]

I do hope you are sticking around DM itself though yes? "I'm Out" feels. Final.

[thehumantrashcan]

3 minutes ago, CaddySedai said:

I do hope you are sticking around DM itself though yes? "I'm Out" feels. Final.

@DojoToadyes!  Please don't leave.  We need our toad at DM!

[Daenelia]

You gave it a fair try and I am hopeful still, that either you will give it another try when season 2 comes along or even 10 years from now. Or, if that suits better: there will be another interpretation in 15 years, because this was succesful enough and we get a sort of reboot with things that suit you better. Maybe this is just the start.

 

Either way: you have your own version in your heart and mind and no one can take thatr from you.

 

You need to stick around though. How boring would it be without you.

[DojoToad]

7 hours ago, CaddySedai said:

I do hope you are sticking around DM itself though yes? "I'm Out" feels. Final.

Yep. Sticking around. Just too darn entertaining here. 

[king of nowhere]

regarding  battles, i do hope we get some good ones with actual battle formations used decently.

i don't remember ever seeing it done well, though, in television. not a single example. it was my major problem with the witcher too.

 

in this case, though, logain's army was not a regular army, trained and drilled. they would not be able to hold formation.

no, not that i actually expect them to show actual formations when they show battles with real armies. one of many things i gave up seeing on televisions. when they do show actual formations, they make a horrible butchering of it (the hobbit, i'm looking at you).

 

can't judge about "grace" or its lack thereof. again, tv bladed combat never feels realistic - even though i actually trained on it only one hour, i can recognize a lot of moves as stuff that nobody would ever try. or a lot of ways that the performers leave themselves open, and are just inexplicably not stabbed for it. the classic "they are all dancing around the main character, doing nothing and waiting to get skewered".

actually, this is a case of books being irrealistic. if we take some fighting description and try to break it down, we would really see most mooks standing around doing nothing. tv just makes it more evident.

 

and let's not even talk about scientific verisimilitude. the main advantage of fantasy is that I can accept "magic does it" and stop worrying, rather than have to be tortured by some mangled fake scientific explanation.

 

i learned to not let myself be turned off by those stuff, else i would appreciate nothing

 

not sure what point i'm trying to make, it any at all

Edited November 27, 2021 by king of nowhere

[Scarloc99]

9 hours ago, Zarathustra said:

Yeah, I went ahead and watched the 4th episode.  Among other things (the battle and the hand axes were almost enough);  Logain thinking that Nyn is the DR just drove the spear into the Trolloc's heart for me.

I really don't get the issue people have with the characters not understanding the Lore, the prophesies have been around for 3000 years, in that time they will have been mis translated, mis told and mis understood. The truth of them does not have to equal peoples understanding of them. People thinking the Dragon will be a women does not mean it can be true, this is something the characters will learn through the series, and in learning those who have not read the books will also learn. This is a great example of the Show don't Tell rule of storytelling, The Writers will show in time that the Dragon has to be a man, (the reveal when the 2 forsaken are resurrected in opposite gender bodies will be one big indication of that late on) which is a better well of delivering that information rather then turning Morraine into Exposition women. 

[muffler]

Just to offer a brief counterpoint Sir_Charrid,

For Me, the fact Jordan covers that mistranslations exist, interpretations made and the prophecy formed over time, different ages and independently of the Aes Sedai (thinking Aiels take) to become a generally known fact hard to square when you put it on balance with the direction the narrative in the show is taking?  

 

I struggle to reconcile the Jordan version in which the Karaethon cycle is crystal clear.  It's almost like choosing less depth and  aware I'm among the minority who cant get out of their own way.  I am trying very hard but perhaps the first straw was the last for me?  

 

I echo Dojo's sentiment that excitement occupied my anticipation to see a piece of my childhood transformed into TV but I don't want to fight with anyone including myself over what is the most true telling.  

Edited November 27, 2021 by muffler
spelling error

[Zarathustra]

3 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I really don't get the issue people have with the characters not understanding the Lore, the prophesies have been around for 3000 years, in that time they will have been mis translated, mis told and mis understood. The truth of them does not have to equal peoples understanding of them. People thinking the Dragon will be a women does not mean it can be true, this is something the characters will learn through the series, and in learning those who have not read the books will also learn. This is a great example of the Show don't Tell rule of storytelling, The Writers will show in time that the Dragon has to be a man, (the reveal when the 2 forsaken are resurrected in opposite gender bodies will be one big indication of that late on) which is a better well of delivering that information rather then turning Morraine into Exposition women. 

Because it ignores Jordan's narrative.  The AS and "scholars" were well aware of the lore surrounding the heroes that were bound to the wheel and knew that all of the iterations that were "spun out" were very similar to their previous iterations.  Ignoring a major theme of the story in order to include two women as possible incarnations of the DR was just foolish--reinforcing it further by giving Logain's description of Rand to Nyn is simply absurd.  They are clipping from Rand's story arc and it makes no sense to me--especially considering that Nyn becomes a very powerful character that's central to the narrative several books later.  The lot of it comes off as being born from poor writing and an attempt to placate the impatience of those that did not read the books.  The D&I is there, they just need to wait for it.

 

I was also worried that the showrunners did this purposefully in order to cast whomever they wish for the heroes of the horn sans regards for Jordan's vision.

[NetSlider]

On 11/26/2021 at 2:43 PM, DojoToad said:

After watching each of the the first 4 episodes twice.  I'm done.  I gave it a fair shot.

 

I liked some changes.  Hated others.  Then also the changes made for no apparent reason.

 

What put me over the edge though was the 'battle' scene.  These actors have had minimal weapons training and it showed.  One from Logain's side was holding an axe that looked like it was just taken out of the plastic from Amazon - not a scrape on it - pristine.  The Warders looked just as graceless as the other side.

 

I hope those of you that like it continue to get what you want, but for me it does not appear that the show will meet my expectations.  That's fine - I still have the books.

 

I'll check in to see how it is going.  Thanks for all the conversations and perspectives.  I've learned a lot through our discussions.

 

I’m not yet, but I’m not recommending it to anyone. 
 

Some changes they made are like, “ok, I guess.” But the others…just no. The overall story of WOT is basically innocence, loss of innocence, corruption, more corruption, inner turmoil and hope for redemption, actions, and finally redemption. Veins of Gold basically spells it all out. 
 

Two Rivers should be a place of almost utopia - unrealistic but because of old blood it’s almost like a preservation of an ideal. Most major characters have arcs for a reason - the changes for Mat is the most glaring example of just “why” change it?! He supposed to grow into a hero over time. And while on the subject of Two Rivers people, this image of brooding, semi-depressed young people reminds me of Twilight cast, and I can’t shake it. The striking contrast to read about them in the beginning and later is something that made WOT so special. The only thing Rand is missing is sparkles in the sun ?‍♂️
 

Overall, RJ crafted a unique and specific story, why screw with it to such a high degree? 
 

Finally, specific few comments on the casting/acting. I don't have issues with casting at all. Some acting, and battle scenes, especially in the Ep 4 in the woods were just sooooo weak. Also, lots of time the characters simply do nothing. I understand they are trying to expand the world and give explanations. So here’s an idea. Episode 1 the opening scene should have been the prologue, to the letter. It would literary explain everything, both sides of power, true power, the breaking, and corruption, the forsaken, and AS, literary everything a new comer needs to know. And this is the biggest problem, many changes feel like they are done simply for the sake of changes. 
 

Also, DR as a possible female? Have they confused the books with the Avatar? I’m sorry, but it literally destroys the whole conflict between reds vs blue and basically the whole Moirane motivations. It’s literary the internal struggle that the WHOLE WORLD struggles with, as in we need DR for LB but he might destroy us before. Prophecies are a major part of WOT and they all in one way or another relate to the fact that the DR is male. 
 

So yeah, I’m still watching but it’s harder and harder to call this WOT adaptation. 
 

[Thana]

17 hours ago, Zarathustra said:

Yeah, I went ahead and watched the 4th episode.  Among other things (the battle and the hand axes were almost enough);  Logain thinking that Nyn is the DR just drove the spear into the Trolloc's heart for me.

Same here. I began my journey with this masterpiece when I was living abroad as an exchange student in the early 1990’s. I understand that there will be some changes and that there will be things that are left out but all this and just 4 episodes in? I hope that they fire Rafe Judkins and never let him work on an adaptation ever again. What did they spend the $10M an episode on? They should have spent some on a better cast or some acting lessons. They need to fire everyone and do a complete reboot. 

[randyat]

As a long time fan of the books, which took me probably 15 years to finish reading (hah) I have to say that this tv series has been way too disappointing.  A lot of the script makes me cringe. I can't tell if it is just poor acting or the script makes their acting bad.  The "chatty Lan" joking around with people by a campfire is cringe. Lots of cringe.  And next season they recast Matt, and I'm like "why?" why ask an audience to get invested in a character only to replace him after 1 season ?  

 

ep 1 should have followed the prologue in the book.  Instead we get some melodramatic voice-over.

 

To me this series is maybe a tad above that winter dragon pilot, or whatever it was (that thing made a few years back featuring Billy Zane)

[Zarathustra]

2 hours ago, Thana said:

Same here. I began my journey with this masterpiece when I was living abroad as an exchange student in the early 1990’s. I understand that there will be some changes and that there will be things that are left out but all this and just 4 episodes in? I hope that they fire Rafe Judkins and never let him work on an adaptation ever again. What did they spend the $10M an episode on? They should have spent some on a better cast or some acting lessons. They need to fire everyone and do a complete reboot. 

I agree.  Sadly though, this is probably going to die similarly to Shannara and the Dark Tower because they strayed too far from the source material.  They should have stuck to the story.  Jordan's books are superior to Martin's and we all know how well received GoT was (except for the ending anyway).

[CaddySedai]

So this thread was initially for Toad to say he's done watching the series and politely expressing his views. 

 

Then it was confirming he isnt in fact leaving DM (hooray)

 

At this point the only posts in this thread are griping about the direction of the show and honestly are more in the territory of belonging in the general Season 1 thread - or a few others that touch on similar topics.

 

So say good night thread. See everyone in one of the others ?