Changes to Perrin

[DaddyFinn]

2 minutes ago, Elgee said:

You're being very innocent and naive (and I mean that in a loving way ?) if you think they'll balk at changing ANYthing, when they've changed so much already ?

I admit being all those. Rafe has said he wants to make Faile a better character. That doesn't mean she will not be cut though.

[AshennaSedai]

6 minutes ago, Elgee said:

You're being very innocent and naive (and I mean that in a loving way ?) if you think they'll balk at changing ANYthing, when they've changed so much already ?

 

I don't think they're saying they'll balk at changing anything but replacing Faile is a more major change than we have seen up to this point.

[swollymammoth]

I just know that every time one of the other characters mentions the name "Laila" my wife and I look at each other and have a genuine moment of "Who the heck is Laila?" before we remember and promptly vomit into our laps. 

 

Problem with Laila isn't that they fridged her to jumpstart Perrin's development. It's that no one gives a single F about her, so when the writers keep trying to leverage her name it always falls flat. 

[MasterAblar]

Yeah replacing Faile would make a major part of Faile's story non existant. I have a hard time seeing them doing that.

[Daenelia]

4 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

I just know that every time one of the other characters mentions the name "Laila" my wife and I look at each other and have a genuine moment of "Who the heck is Laila?" before we remember and promptly vomit into our laps. 

 

Problem with Laila isn't that they fridged her to jumpstart Perrin's development. It's that no one gives a single F about her, so when the writers keep trying to leverage her name it always falls flat. 

 

But we as an audience dont have to care about her. We only need to realise that in this version Perrin cared deeply for her. You saw how he hugged her, even though she was kinda cold to him? That was all I needed to know, to see what her death did to Perrin. I dont have to give a flying fructose about her.

[swollymammoth]

3 minutes ago, Daenelia said:

But we as an audience dont have to care about her. We only need to realise that in this version Perrin cared deeply for her. You saw how he hugged her, even though she was kinda cold to him?

Nope, it's some bullcrap. It would have been one thing if they'd have focused an entire episode on them and their relationship, but they didn't. Granted, this would have been impossible given the ensemble nature of the first episode (which was a terrible decision). The problem is that I also don't care about this Perrin at all, and I don't think the writers have done anything to merit me caring about him beyond my inherited knowledge of his character from the books. 

 

One hug and a cold look does not a meaningful relationship make. If it did, then every first date I ever went on could be categorized that way. 

 

As it is, there's no weight at all to her name or her role in Perrin's life. That's why they're trying to add that stuff in posthumously by informing us classic tell-don't-show manner. "Laila was like this" "Layla loved this" "Layla always said" etc. 

[AshennaSedai]

5 minutes ago, Daenelia said:

 

But we as an audience dont have to care about her. We only need to realise that in this version Perrin cared deeply for her. You saw how he hugged her, even though she was kinda cold to him? That was all I needed to know, to see what her death did to Perrin. I dont have to give a flying fructose about her.

 

Do we have to know? No. However us caring about her will only deepen the impact if it must be done.

[AshennaSedai]

12 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Problem with Laila isn't that they fridged her to jumpstart Perrin's development. It's that no one gives a single F about her, so when the writers keep trying to leverage her name it always falls flat. 

 

I think it's very much both. The definition of fridging says that it's the killing of a minor character to jumpstart a main character's journey. Had they actually taken even a little time to develop her, it would have felt a lot less like a minor character and just more like a character to me. I understand that they don't have that time and that's also why I think just another choice would have been a lot better. Part of me is waiting for her to have been Lanfear just so she could be reborn later and show up again. ((FTR I hate that idea and I hope it doesn't happen but it'd give them a reason to have her back.))

[KakitaOCU]

As others said, Master Luhhan would have been better.

That said, I don't see this as a shortcut so much as something that is going to help explain better.

TO leave terms vague, Perrin's struggle is generally "Will I become an animal and lose my humanity?"  and 2 "Is violence acceptable?"

In the TV show the catalyst for this is him being in a bit of a rage against the Trollocs and someone dies that he cares for.  In the Books it was him being in a rage and someone who was an antagonist trying to kill his friends died.  

I think the TV motive gives more jusitification.

Also, what happened to Laila in episode one gives a lot more logic to how protective Perrin will be over a certain Bird at a later date.

[Daenelia]

Lots of people seemed to care for Perrin a lot because of that scene. So it really does not matter if they care for Laila at all. They need to care about Perrin and his state of mind.

I think Perrin was the one character my guy had a connection to, just because that scene is so evocative and pretty emotional. The shock on Perrin's face, while still holding in your mind how lovingly he embraced his wife earlier. I think it is pretty clear. I personally do no see that as fridging at all. not

[Elgee]

I haven't seen anyone addressing the elephants in the room (or maybe it's in some thread somewhere that I've just missed).

 

1. Why was Laila so cold to Perrin?

2. Why was Perrin drinking with his buddies in the inn while his wife's slaving away in the smithy?

3. Does Perrin have a thing for Egwene?

[Agitel]

I definitely did not pick up on any Perrin-crushing-on-Egwene vibes. They've been friends since childhood. I'm not sure where this is coming from.

 

And it'll irk me to no end if it happens.

[DaddyFinn]

5 minutes ago, Agitel said:

I definitely did not pick up on any Perrin-crushing-on-Egwene vibes. They've been friends since childhood. I'm not sure where this is coming from.

 

And it'll irk me to no end if it happens.

This. Only thing I saw was Perrin taking care of Egwene or at least wanting to.

[Maximillion]

6 minutes ago, Elgee said:

I haven't seen anyone addressing the elephants in the room (or maybe it's in some thread somewhere that I've just missed).

 

1. Why was Laila so cold to Perrin?

2. Why was Perrin drinking with his buddies in the inn while his wife's slaving away in the smithy?

3. Does Perrin have a thing for Egwene?

 

I suspect that it will be Matt and Perrin that end up together.

It could be that Laila and Perrin were having difficulty because she knew something was going on.

 

[JenniferL]

28 minutes ago, Elgee said:

I haven't seen anyone addressing the elephants in the room (or maybe it's in some thread somewhere that I've just missed).

 

1. Why was Laila so cold to Perrin?

2. Why was Perrin drinking with his buddies in the inn while his wife's slaving away in the smithy?

3. Does Perrin have a thing for Egwene?

This is why Laila bothers me. There’s clearly something wrong with their relationship, but we are going to drag out the reveal to increase Perrin’s manpain. 

[Daenelia]

27 minutes ago, JenniferL said:

This is why Laila bothers me. There’s clearly something wrong with their relationship, but we are going to drag out the reveal to increase Perrin’s manpain. 

Why is Perrin not entitled to feel pain? Even in the books, Perrin is the one who is the most feeling of the three. And I don't understand what the problem is with not immediately having exposition on why their relationship is troubled.

 

Isn't it just down to storytelling?

[JenniferL]

9 minutes ago, Daenelia said:

Why is Perrin not entitled to feel pain? Even in the books, Perrin is the one who is the most feeling of the three. And I don't understand what the problem is with not immediately having exposition on why their relationship is troubled.

 

Isn't it just down to storytelling?

 

It’s lazy storytelling. They gave him a wife, just to kill her off. I think she had one, two lines of dialogue and never interacted with anyone but Perrin. Laila isn’t a character, she’s a contrivance. The Wheel of Time is a series with many richly realized female characters that all feel like complete people, even the background characters. Laila only exists to be killed and give Perrin a reason to be sad. 

[KakitaOCU]

1 hour ago, Elgee said:

I haven't seen anyone addressing the elephants in the room (or maybe it's in some thread somewhere that I've just missed).

 

1. Why was Laila so cold to Perrin?

2. Why was Perrin drinking with his buddies in the inn while his wife's slaving away in the smithy?

3. Does Perrin have a thing for Egwene?

My thoughts, for what they're worth.

1: I don't think it's a loving Marriage.  I know in the books Perrin had a bit of a thing for her, but that doesn't mean a real relationship.  If you've read L.E. Modesitt Jr's Recluce Saga I would put Perrin and Laila in a similar boat as Kharl and his first wife.  Marriage that was expected and  okay isn't exactly working out.

2: I don't think he knew.  He thought she was supposed to be out helping with Egwene's initiation.  He hears in the bar she didn't go and was at home at the forge and then heads there.

3: I don't think so.  This is going to be the classic case of a man and a woman being close friends and people who have trouble with that idea immediately read more into it than is there.  I felt Perrin was every bit as protective, close and friendly to her in the books at this point too.

[Daenelia]

46 minutes ago, JenniferL said:

 

It’s lazy storytelling. They gave him a wife, just to kill her off. I think she had one, two lines of dialogue and never interacted with anyone but Perrin. Laila isn’t a character, she’s a contrivance. The Wheel of Time is a series with many richly realized female characters that all feel like complete people, even the background characters. Laila only exists to be killed and give Perrin a reason to be sad. 

But how could that have been done otherwise? Woulkd it have been an option to have an episode 0 with Perrin's courtship and wedding?

[TheDreadReader]

53 minutes ago, Daenelia said:

But how could that have been done otherwise? Woulkd it have been an option to have an episode 0 with Perrin's courtship and wedding?

 

That is the problem with Brandon's idea of using Master Luhhan instead.  The average viewer won't have enough emotional investment in the character from the start to stick the landing.    There are ways they might have done it differently but things like this exist for reason (they are generally effective) even if they are equally problematic.

 

I'm starting to think that the fridging scene was included because "Amazon" wanted the show to have a Ned Stark/Red Wedding moment.   And, I think they got what they wanted.   

 

Personally, I still wish they didn't do it.

 

 

[JenniferL]

If it absolutely had to be a wife, then give her a personality at least. Like I said, she interacts with anyone but Perrin and has hardly any dialogue. Laila is not a person. 

[TheDreadReader]

35 minutes ago, JenniferL said:

If it absolutely had to be a wife, then give her a personality at least. Like I said, she interacts with anyone but Perrin and has hardly any dialogue. Laila is not a person. 

 

I agree 100% with that.   There are some really good hints at a personality and a backstory in what they showed us.  I am hoping that they work that in later.   That doesn't excuse the fridging in my mind but the bits that I saw were pretty interesting to me.   I think that is why more than a few fan-theories got generated rather quickly about her.   There's a base to build on.  But, who knows if they will.

 

So far the characters of Leila and Dana both remind me of my (non-reader/non-player) reaction to Renfri in the Witcher.  A great character and portrayal that I spent the reminder of season 1 hoping that we would see her again and got frustrated when that did not happen.  

 

 

[WhiteVeils]

They had just a few moments to establish her character. They could have made her soft and lovey and everything, and that would would have been completely expected and 'normal', and then she would be killed. And that would be 'creating a character just to kill her'.  She wouldn't be her own personality. They did not choose that. They gave her what, at the very least, is clearly her own agenda and thoughts that were not in line with Perrin's. She showed a personality that was not just 'accessory to him'.  Even if we get nothing more, the darker spin on her character moves the whole thing away from 'fridging' where 'woman is accessory to man who exists in order to be killed'.

[Daenelia]

Nononono. This is nothing like the Red Wedding. At all. Nothing. I dont even think the effect is the same or the point or anything.

 

We need an emotional and deep feeling Perrin, considering what we kinda can suspect from him down the road.

 

If someone I don't know very well tells me his wife died, someone I had no interaction with: I still say 'my condolences' and understand that he is in pain. To say Laily is not a person, because no one witnessed their interaction, that does Perrin a disservice. No matter who or what she turns out to be, to this Perrin this woman was the woman he married. I think that deserves some respect, for him. As a fictional character even.

[notpropaganda73]