Where is Bella?

[WhiteVeils]

Interesting side note:

In Czech folklore (according to the person who studied it that told me, anyway), horses have great significance as mentors/guides of the hero. 

Which means that many elderly Czech men really were caring about Bela's longterm arc without knowing what Wheel of Time is, assuming that she was the talking horse that guides the hero to the end of the adventure.

[Agitel]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

Interesting side note:

In Czech folklore (according to the person who studied it that told me, anyway), horses have great significance as mentors/guides of the hero. 

Which means that many elderly Czech men really were caring about Bela's longterm arc without knowing what Wheel of Time is, assuming that she was the talking horse that guides the hero to the end of the adventure.

 

You know the voice that Rand hears at the end of EOTW? Bela.

[Andra]

On 12/2/2021 at 11:14 AM, TheDreadReader said:

The only real continuity error that has stuck out to me so far is Rand's bow.   He doesn't have it.  He has it.  He doesn't have it again.

 

One cool note, in the picture of Rand with the cloak, I think you can still see his jacket poking out from under it.

 

There is another.

 

When they come back out of Shadar Logoth, where are the trollocs?

Unlike the show, the fades didn't drive the trollocs into SL after them, but stayed outside.  But they were only inside for at most a few hours.  No one that escaped via the river seemed to care - which could be perfectly fine.

But Lan and Moiraine came back out the same way they went in (the only opening through the city wall), and Nynaeve would have had to go right through them to follow Moiraine's "tell" and put her knife against Lan's throat.  None of them even seemed to consider that they might still be there.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Andra

[Andra]

And another ...

Rand apparently figured out he was the Dragon Reborn because he finally remembered things that fit the description/prophecies.

 

Question: when did he hear about those things, or hear they mattered?

 

We know that Gitara Sedai told Moiraine and Siuan that the dragon had been reborn on the slopes of Dragonmount.  But when Moiraine told our young protagonists about it, she never told them what Gitara actually said.  So why would remembering the mountain mean anything?  Even Min telling him that's where he was born wouldn't have meant anything if he hadn't already heard it should.

He also remembered that he had channeled.  But if the dragon could be male or female, and they all knew of other men who channeled, why would being a man who could channel mean he was the DR?

Even hearing Machin Shin tell him wouldn't mean anything, since we know it told him all kinds of things that were false.

 

Given what we knew from the show (Rand hasn't read the books, or seen Amazon's bonus materials) how did any of what he remembered mean he was the DR?

[king of nowhere]

By the way, is it possible to edit the thread title?

Whenever i see "where is bella", i envision an unholy wot-twilight crossover ?

[EmreY]

15 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

By the way, is it possible to edit the thread title?

Whenever i see "where is bella", i envision an unholy wot-twilight crossover ?

 

Add Perrin to the mix and you're done! ? 

[Andra]

Another few inconsistencies/continuity errors:

 

According to the map in Amazon's bonus materials, the layout of the major geographic elements of the continent is approximately the same as the book.  Ghealdan is south of the Two Rivers, Tar Valon is northeast of them on an island in the middle of a north/south river, and Dragonmount is to its west.  Tear is all the way south, with the Fingers of the Dragon on the coast.

 

And yet ...

Though it's clearly at least early summer in the Two Rivers and Shadar Logoth, it snows during the burial scene after Kerene's death.  Approximately "three hours southwest" of Shadar Logoth.  Now granted the attack was a couple days after they met up, but it looks like they hadn't moved from the spot where Logaine's cage was kept in a cave.

 

Rand and Mat approach Tar Valon from the west or southwest, and Dragonmount is on the opposite side of the river from them.

 

In the scene just before the "love shack", the camera looks out over Tar Valon and down the river.  Directly at the setting sun.

 

The Fingers of the Dragon is a river delta.  In Siuan's cold open, their riverside shack is next to several mountains.  Which river deltas don't have.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Andra

[Andra]

And one more:

 

Kerene was killed with a belly wound.  That takes time to die.

By the time Nynaeve Healed the entire room a couple minutes later, she would most likely have still been alive.

 

Why wasn't she Healed along with everyone else?

[EmreY]

6 hours ago, Andra said:

Kerene was killed with a belly wound.  That takes time to die.

 

I agree with the rest, but if it hit a major artery, it can be pretty quick.

[king of nowhere]

18 hours ago, Andra said:

Another few inconsistencies/continuity errors:

 

According to the map in Amazon's bonus materials, the layout of the major geographic elements of the continent is approximately the same as the book.  Ghealdan is south of the Two Rivers, Tar Valon is northeast of them on an island in the middle of a north/south river, and Dragonmount is to its west.  Tear is all the way south, with the Fingers of the Dragon on the coast.

 

And yet ...

Though it's clearly at least early summer in the Two Rivers and Shadar Logoth, it snows during the burial scene after Kerene's death.  Approximately "three hours southwest" of Shadar Logoth.  Now granted the attack was a couple days after they met up, but it looks like they hadn't moved from the spot where Logaine's cage was kept in a cave.

 

is it clearly summer? I get no indication of weather anytime except during the burial, but everyone seem dressed heavily, which is more consistent with winter. mat even complains about cold. bel tine is also supposed to happen in winter.

 

 

Quote

The Fingers of the Dragon is a river delta.  In Siuan's cold open, their riverside shack is next to several mountains.  Which river deltas don't have.

the extras say that the river delta cuts through some limestone cliffs.

I'm not sure how much geologically plausible it is. I know that they only put cliffs there because they look good.

[Deviations]

4 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

bel tine is also supposed to happen in winter.

Bel tine is in the spring.  'no goodwife would allow bel tine to come without the spring cleaning being done'.

[king of nowhere]

1 hour ago, Deviations said:

Bel tine is in the spring.  'no goodwife would allow bel tine to come without the spring cleaning being done'.

oh, right. But it was uncommonly cold that spring, and there was still snow around in patches:

Quote

For all that spring should have come a good month since, the wind carried an icy chill as if it would rather bear snow

Quote

Scattered white patches of snow still dotted the ground

Both quotes coming from the very first page of the first chapter of teotw.

So, it's not a plot hole that it would snow sometimes during the events in the show. though the unnatural winter is never mentioned once, there's also no indication of warm weather. I only remember alanna wearing a deep neckline, but she was inside the hall of the tower; i don't remember anyone with light clothing outdoors

[Gypsum]

3 hours ago, Deviations said:

Bel tine is in the spring.  'no goodwife would allow bel tine to come without the spring cleaning being done'.

 

I assumed that was Jordan playing fast and loose with the Gaelic festival of Beltane. Which occurs on May 1st. Depending on where you are in the world, it can snow. Or it can be warm and sunny. If it's Scotland, any and all of the above in one day are possible. I'll forgive them the weather continuity errors.

[Andra]

10 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

is it clearly summer? I get no indication of weather anytime except during the burial, but everyone seem dressed heavily, which is more consistent with winter. mat even complains about cold. bel tine is also supposed to happen in winter.

 

4 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

Both quotes coming from the very first page of the first chapter of teotw.

So, it's not a plot hole that it would snow sometimes during the events in the show. though the unnatural winter is never mentioned once, there's also no indication of warm weather. I only remember alanna wearing a deep neckline, but she was inside the hall of the tower; i don't remember anyone with light clothing outdoors

I posted this info in another thread, but it was fairly long.  So I will try to make it (slightly) more brief:

 

1: We see no patches of snow anywhere around Two Rivers, so the "strangely late winter" has apparently been dropped from the show.  Aside from the fact that it is never mentioned, everything is already green.

2: You don't throw someone into a river in the mountains at the end of winter and expect them to do anything much more than die of hypothermia.

3: When Perrin tells Rand and Mat about soldiers massing in Taren Ferry to march south to Ghealdan, he says the news was brought back by people who had gone to Taren Ferry "with the wool last week."  This places Beltine about two weeks after the first shearing of the year, which means late spring or early summer at the earliest. For mountain villages in climate zones like Two Rivers is supposed to be, that usually means late May for the beginning of the first shearing, early June for that shearing to be completed and prepared for market, mid June for it to get to market and have word come back to the village.  And a week later to account for that having been "last week."

In other words, in the show, Bel Tine is closer to midsummer that early spring.  Or even May Day.

4: They had been gone from Two Rivers for "days" before they got to Shadar Logoth (Lan says he hasn't seen traces of trollocs "for days" before they reappear.  Which probably means between three days and a week.

5: So by the time they met up with the Reds and Greens with Logain, it must be late June at the earliest.  In the south.  Where it ain't gonna be snowing anywhere.

 

People are dressed fairly heavily in other places because they are in the mountains, where it can get cold at any time of the year.  Mat complains, but Rand says it's "a little chilly."

Pretty much none of the people among Logain's captors are dressed heavily.

 

 

 

Basically, what happened is that it snowed when they were filming, and Rafe thought it looked pretty.  So he kept it, even though it shouldn't have happened.

Pretty much the same reason there are mountains everywhere in the show - because Rafe thought they were pretty.

Edited February 3, 2022 by Andra

[Andra]

11 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

the extras say that the river delta cuts through some limestone cliffs.

I'm not sure how much geologically plausible it is. I know that they only put cliffs there because they look good.

River deltas don't "cut through" rock.

Pretty much by definition.

 

They included things in the show that make no sense, because they thought they look good.

Edited February 3, 2022 by Andra

[king of nowhere]

5 hours ago, Andra said:

River deltas don't "cut through" rock.

Pretty much by definition.

 

They included things in the show that make no sense, because they thought they look good.

Not sure; rivers do form canyon complexes, having one such complex close to the sea may possibly happen under very special circumstances.

 

But yes, i am well aware movies prioritize what looks cool in the moment over what makes sense. It's one of my main problems with tv in general. I haven't seen a single cultivated field anywhere, and the witcher wasn't better in this regard. Lotr wasn't better. All cities are in the middle of wilderness. I always wonder what people eat

[Andra]

9 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

Not sure; rivers do form canyon complexes, having one such complex close to the sea may possibly happen under very special circumstances.

 

But yes, i am well aware movies prioritize what looks cool in the moment over what makes sense. It's one of my main problems with tv in general. I haven't seen a single cultivated field anywhere, and the witcher wasn't better in this regard. Lotr wasn't better. All cities are in the middle of wilderness. I always wonder what people eat

I'm the same way.

I spend a lot of time hiking and backpacking, and I know how much of the preparation for the trip involves getting food together for the whole party.

 

We know where Egwene and Perrin got their food, and we suppose Rand and Mat did something similar in the show as in the book.   But the party of Aes Sedai escorting Logaine spent a month on the road with apparently no wagons except the one holding Logaine's cage.  And nowhere near enough pack animals to have made up for it.

 

One of the things I liked in the books with the rebel Aes Sedai forces on the march was the mention of having to trade with the locals for supplies, or for mending the things they couldn't trade for.  And the sheer exhaustion of the paperwork involved.  Same thing for Mat and the Band having to wait for the wagons to catch up every day on the march toward Tear.

[WhiteVeils]

Have lived in the mountains. It can and does snow in May in the mountains, long after the wildflowers have bloomed and the passes are clear.   That's just elevation.

River deltas don't cut through rock, but the fingers look like a heavy limestone area, and it's limestone topography.  It's hard to assess the geology in WOT anyway because, well, magical cataclysm. The books describe a more traditional delta, but I'm fine with awesome.  It's a real area, they didn't CGI all of those cliffs, so it's fair game.

 

[Deviations]

River deltas are the area made of of the silt carried down the and dumped in the sea when the water slows down.  That can't be in cliff formations which can be a short ways up the river.  I think this is the MacKenzie river delta in Canada.  The delta is the flat part...

 

 

 

I get that you have to suspend disbelief when taking in a story like this so I didn't lose my mind over it but it was just one of a hundred things in the series that didn't sit well.  Siuan grew up a fisherman's daughter and speaks somewhat colloquially in the books, but like a court raised noble in the tv series.  Changes the whole feel of who she is supposed to be (for me).

[Andra]

30 minutes ago, Deviations said:

River deltas are the area made of of the silt carried down the and dumped in the sea when the water slows down.  That can't be in cliff formations which can be a short ways up the river.  I think this is the MacKenzie river delta in Canada.  The delta is the flat part...

 

 

 

I get that you have to suspend disbelief when taking in a story like this so I didn't lose my mind over it but it was just one of a hundred things in the series that didn't sit well.  Siuan grew up a fisherman's daughter and speaks somewhat colloquially in the books, but like a court raised noble in the tv series.  Changes the whole feel of who she is supposed to be (for me).

 

A lot of what I've noticed with the changes in the scenery appear to show nothing more than the fact that Rafe likes the looks of mountains.  Virtually everything takes place in or next to mountains in each episode.  Even in places we know were in the middle of vast plains in the

books.

 

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

Have lived in the mountains. It can and does snow in May in the mountains, long after the wildflowers have bloomed and the passes are clear.   That's just elevation.

Which explains Mat being "a little chilly" walking through a (newly-invented) mountain range running smack down the middle of Andor.

But not snow further south and at lower elevations in Ghealdan.

 

From the bonus materials for the episode, we know the snow wasn't originally in the scene.  But it started snowing when they were filming, and Rafe liked the way it looked.  So he ran with it.

Without considering the possible continuity/consistency issues it might raise.

[WhiteVeils]

38 minutes ago, Deviations said:

River deltas are the area made of of the silt carried down the and dumped in the sea when the water slows down.  That can't be in cliff formations which can be a short ways up the river.  I think this is the MacKenzie river delta in Canada.  The delta is the flat part...

 

 

 

I get that you have to suspend disbelief when taking in a story like this so I didn't lose my mind over it but it was just one of a hundred things in the series that didn't sit well.  Siuan grew up a fisherman's daughter and speaks somewhat colloquially in the books, but like a court raised noble in the tv series.  Changes the whole feel of who she is supposed to be (for me).

Oh, you're absolutely right about what a delta is. What changed in the show from the book is that the Fingers of the Dragon is now not a delta. It's a carst limestone terrain, like in China.  The geology is different.  But Siuan is still a fisherman's daughter, still talks like a fisherman's daughter, and even practices her knots. They dedicated a whole cold open to showing she still is, and when she's in private with Moiraine she still acts like it.

I never believed that in the books when she was acting in public in the seat of her full power and authority she  talked like a fishwife. She was a skilled political player who had to move royalty and powerful women of all backgrounds. Of course she acted like nobility...you play the part.  The show was just like the books in that respect.

[WhiteVeils]

4 minutes ago, Andra said:

But not snow further south and at lower elevations in Ghealdan.

 

These mountains? 

Edited February 3, 2022 by WhiteVeils

[Andra]

3 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

Oh, you're absolutely right about what a delta is. What changed in the show from the book is that the Fingers of the Dragon is now not a delta. It's a carst limestone terrain, like in China.  The geology is different.  But Siuan is still a fisherman's daughter, still talks like a fisherman's daughter, and even practices her knots. They dedicated a whole cold open to showing she still is, and when she's in private with Moiraine she still acts like it.

 

The problem is that the bonus materials still refer to the Fingers of the Dragon as a delta.

And it just isn't.

[WhiteVeils]

I thought bonus materials did not count? 

 

Or, if you prefer, this is upstream of the delta, and the delta is further down the river.  You can have both in fairly close proximity in a block and basin environment.

[Andra]

13 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

 

These mountains? 

Yes, these mountains.

Which are both lower in elevation and further south than where Mat is complaining.  And the Aes Sedai party isn't on top of the mountains even there.  They are down in the valleys where they can travel with a fortified wagon.  Not up in the high passes.

Edited February 3, 2022 by Andra