How did the show hold up for you?

[fra85uk]

2 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

 

Heh...'nuff said.

Hey in ep.4 (i) there was the king of Gheldean in his foot-soldier moment,

(ii) there were incompetent men ruining the work of strong women:

obviously it was a more difficult battle

 

Instead in Fal dara incompetent men at least were gracious enough to get idiotically obliterated beforehand, giving Amalisa the big Moment that she deserved, thus dramatically improving over the books.

 

 

[Mirefox]

4 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

 

Heh...'nuff said.

And when I say the writing is objectively bad (and then get told I don’t know what that word means), here is a great example.  The show was so inconsistent at times that it was mind boggling.  The writers were happy to change the rules of the world to include visual spectacle or play up their favorite characters with little regard to how that would be perceived relative to what they’ve shown us before.

[WoTwasThat]

1 hour ago, Mirefox said:

I couldn’t agree with this any less than I do.  You might as well say that the show expects viewers to read the books to learn the details it doesn’t provide.  It is a massive cop out to leave things out of a show then provide bonus content to explain everything you failed to explain.

Correct.

 

1 hour ago, fra85uk said:

Putting saidin/Saidar stuff in the extra is a dodgy move, not something to be praised.

 

By the end of S1, one of the key elements of the books has not been addressed clearly in-show and we are seeing really foggy stuff: Moraine saying that he can teach Rand, Ishy explaining Rand how to use the OP as it was Saidar.

 

Correct.

 

There was quite clearly a deliberate decision to completely gloss over this distinction in the show - a distinction that is both (1) essential and (2) uniquely awesome, to the story. And “the audience wouldn’t get it” or “they didn’t have enough time” excuses simply do not wash.

 

I suspect this decision had some connection to the “DR can be a man or woman” change.

 

And oh man, we should play a drinking game for every time somebody brings up “unreliable narrator.” :(

[Gothic Flame]

4 minutes ago, WoTwasThat said:

And oh man, we should play a drinking game for every time somebody brings up “unreliable narrator.” ?

*shrugs*

I know someone who can use another hangover...(is this turning into a running gag? I should wonder)

[fra85uk]

The only unreliable narrator here is Rafe.

 

Anyway, I was reading the post that said that saidin/saidar is not shown because of unreliable narrator and the fact that Lews Therin story (i.e. "the arrogance of men") is seen from female AS perspective.

 

But such a theory do not make any sense because this unreliable narrator does not know if the dragon can be a man or a woman, does not know the distinction between saidin/saidar BUT at the same times is pretty sure that the Breaking was caused by the arrogance of men and that the OP for male channelers is tainted (but of course the show does never truly clarify the reasons) 

[WoTwasThat]

26 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

The only unreliable narrator here is Rafe.

Have to agree. 

 

26 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

Anyway, I was reading the post that said that saidin/saidar is not shown because of unreliable narrator and the fact that Lews Therin story (i.e. "the arrogance of men") is seen from female AS perspective. 

Wait… so now we’re “seeing” (3,000 year old) flashbacks through a certain perspective? LOL. Can you quote that? Whoever said that deserves some sort of trophy. 

Edited December 30, 2021 by WoTwasThat

[Pandemonium]

1.  One of the biggest fails was that they tried to fill in the gaps with bonus materials.  These bonus materials aren't easy to find and aren't even available on most TV streaming devices.  someone told me I have to watch it on my computer to find the bonus content.  What's the point?  

 

 

2.  If they are struggling for time I suggested they do a very fast 3 second intro scene like the Witcher season 2.  That will allow a little more content in each episode. 

 

3.  Gotta fix the editing and pacing.  I just watched book of Boba Fett and I was amazed at how they spend so much time on each scene, sometimes with no words at all.  Alien languages, world building etc. It was really fun to watch Tatooine come alive. Wheel of time rushed almost every single scene (except the Steppin one) and barely even showed the world they built such as Shadar Logoth. the Ways, the Blight etc.  Amazon has to give them more time to make the scenes and characters come alive.  that isn't happening for me yet.

 

 

4.  Wheel of time needs some more humor as well.  the books are full of humor, and I don't think the show is making that humor element at all.  Grimdark can still have humor.  Game of Thrones had some hilarious scenes as well.... not so much with WOT.

 

5.  Don't change the books for reasons that make no sense.  Perrin killing his wife was an absolutely terrible decision.  Didn't add to the season and Perrin ended up a compete dud.  Listen to Brandon next time when he has strong objections 

 

 

 

 

[king of nowhere]

On a hopeful note, teotw was one of the weakest wot books, RJ did stumble a bit before finding his way. teotw alone was nowhere near as good as the full wot, but it was a story with potential. A potential that got fulfilled.

the tv show has many flaws, but perhaps rafe will also find his way with some time. right now, the show has potential; it can yet be fulfilled in a way that will satisfy even many of the people who are now disliking it.

[Raal Gurniss]

7 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

On a hopeful note, teotw was one of the weakest wot books, RJ did stumble a bit before finding his way. teotw alone was nowhere near as good as the full wot, but it was a story with potential. A potential that got fulfilled.

the tv show has many flaws, but perhaps rafe will also find his way with some time. right now, the show has potential; it can yet be fulfilled in a way that will satisfy even many of the people who are now disliking it.

Can’t see how they turn it around unless they pretend the whole first season was the equivalent of a “dream” episode and little to none of it happened.

[king of nowhere]

3 hours ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Can’t see how they turn it around unless they pretend the whole first season was the equivalent of a “dream” episode and little to none of it happened.

from this i'll take you're one of those who disagree with the changes; in which case, there is no hope for you, you won't like the show.

me, i think most of the changes were good. it was good to put more focus on moiraine, to introduce the white tower politics early on, to give more space to logain to showcase the danger of channeling men. it was good to shift some of the focus of the eye of the world away from rand, to have someone else face the trollocs instead. rafe generally had good ideas on the changes that are necessary to adapt the story in no more than 8 seasons.

It was the execution of those ideas that was botched at times. and that execution can improve.

[TheMountain]

I would love to see some humility, acknowledgement of critcism, and a stated desire to do better on the part of Rafe and Amazon in general. I think it would go a long way with disgruntled fans. Instead, we have gotten the ol' "I am the AR-TEEST," "all problems are Covid," and "this show is the best thing since sliced bread!"

Edited December 31, 2021 by TheMountain

[Carebear Sedai]

52 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

I would love to see some humility, acknowledgement of critcism, and a stated desire to do better on the part of Rafe and Amazon in general. I think it would go a long way with disgruntled fans. Instead, we have gotten the ol' "I am the AR-TEEST," "all problems are Covid," and "this show is the best thing since sliced bread!"

 

Disgruntled book fans are such a minuscule portion of their overarching audience, they have no reason to acknowledge them or cater to them. If the show isn't for you, better find something that is. Rafe owes this group nothing. Better ignore the bitter book fans and focus on the massive audience they've garnered instead. 

Edited December 31, 2021 by Carebear Sedai

[fra85uk]

Wow I Have never seen this much of hatred vs the core fanbase as in the case of Wot-show 

I imagine that , if you buy an ip with milions of fans and  you do not want to please them, at least you don't try to actively enrage them.

But i am no Hollywood writer, so...

But then, as with other cases (last being cowboy bebop), when the show get cancelled with shame we hear the surprised "oh but what happened?"

[Carebear Sedai]

Cowboy Bebop was bound to fail, as every live action take on anime fails. It had nothing to do with fidelity, but rather taking a story told in a beautiful visual medium and try to tell it in a far less beautiful medium with far less chances to be visually interesting. Easy to see why they don't work. 

 

It's peak entitlement to be "enraged" over an adaptation not catering to its book fans, but instead trying to find a vaster audience. It's just a show. There are many others.

[Gothic Flame]

1 hour ago, Carebear Sedai said:

 

Disgruntled book fans are such a minuscule portion of their overarching audience, they have no reason to acknowledge them or cater to them. If the show isn't for you, better find something that is. Rafe owes this group nothing. Better ignore the bitter book fans and focus on the massive audience they've garnered instead. 

And yet when this show gets cancelled it's that " miniscule portion" that will be blamed. 

[fra85uk]

Yes but you want to find a vaster audience in virtue of what made the book special not in spite of their contents

That's for example the enormous difference between Wot and GoT: GoT showrunners believed in the source material and committed to adapt its themes for a broader audience. They adapted it because they believed that there were good stuff that could Have been successfully extracted from the library niche.

Instead wot showrunners do not trust/like RJ work to the point that i ask myself why did they wanted to adapt it in first place.

[Gothic Flame]

2 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

Yes but you want to find a vaster audience in virtue of what made the book special not in spite of their contents

*nods*

The non-book audience should be shown why Jordan's work was great. Not shown Judkin's illogical and skewed "vision" that has little to do with Jordan's books.

[EmreY]

52 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

*nods*

The non-book audience should be shown why Jordan's work was great. Not shown Judkin's illogical and skewed "vision" that has little to do with Jordan's books.

 

If you had said "could well be" instead of "should", I'd have agreed.

 

As it is, I don't understand the obligation.  For better or worse, there are no sacred cows in today's world.

[fra85uk]

16 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

If you had said "could well be" instead of "should", I'd have agreed.

 

As it is, I don't understand the obligation.  For better or worse, there are no sacred cows in today's world.

...and that's true. But for the same reason, instead of adapting something that they do not really like or they think is problematic, why the showrunners do not invent their own stories since they know better? Maybe because they are not talented enough to do that?

If they want really to do another turning of the wheel, do it completely: change everything, names and so on, make the dragon a woman, do it...but in reality even if they claim they do not need us book fans and actually despise Us for being narrowminded for not appreciating their Fix to the books, they know that the only reason for the existence of show named WoT is the success of the books that they loathe

 

[Lethira the second]

At the end of the day, I understand the bitterness and disappointment of the fans who were told they would see an adaptation of their favourite book and it didn't live up to expectations.  I would suggest however, that those of us who feel that way, just don't give the show energy.  Rafe and his crew is not going to read your post and change direction.  Arguing with the fandom isn't going to solve anything, only create more division, and light knows there's enough of that in the world.

 

 

[Raal Gurniss]

2 hours ago, fra85uk said:

Yes but you want to find a vaster audience in virtue of what made the book special not in spite of their contents

That's for example the enormous difference between Wot and GoT: GoT showrunners believed in the source material and committed to adapt its themes for a broader audience. They adapted it because they believed that there were good stuff that could Have been successfully extracted from the library niche.

Instead wot showrunners do not trust/like RJ work to the point that i ask myself why did they wanted to adapt it in first place.

They wanted to exploit an existing IP because of multiple benefits…Namely an existing fanbase/market and their ideas on their own weren’t capable of getting off the ground on their own.

 

 

[fra85uk]

1 minute ago, Raal Gurniss said:

They wanted to exploit an existing IP because of multiple benefits…Namely an existing fanbase/market and their ideas on their own weren’t capable of getting off the ground on their own.

 

 

Exactly,  but at least do it with some grace. Do not please Us but do not spit in our faces either.

[Raal Gurniss]

57 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

At the end of the day, I understand the bitterness and disappointment of the fans who were told they would see an adaptation of their favourite book and it didn't live up to expectations.  I would suggest however, that those of us who feel that way, just don't give the show energy.  Rafe and his crew is not going to read your post and change direction.  Arguing with the fandom isn't going to solve anything, only create more division, and light knows there's enough of that in the world.

 

 

Not sure it’s book fans arguing…What would be the point?

 

I think they just want to air their dissatisfaction and see how many agree with them, umbrage is seemingly taken by those that prefer the tv series as they feel the need to defend it.

 

 

Not trying to start anything that’s not anywhere near my intention, this is just how it appears from my perspective, if people like the show excellent! Long may it continue.

[WoTwasThat]

16 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

On a hopeful note, teotw was one of the weakest wot books, RJ did stumble a bit before finding his way. teotw alone was nowhere near as good as the full wot, but it was a story with potential. A potential that got fulfilled.

the tv show has many flaws, but perhaps rafe will also find his way with some time. right now, the show has potential; it can yet be fulfilled in a way that will satisfy even many of the people who are now disliking it.

TEOTW is among the top half. Certainly better than books 7-10 and I’d say it’s a sight better than Books 5, 11, and the Sanderson cappers. 
 

Where Jordan “stumbled” was with the challenge of writing a Book 1 that served as a launching pad for the series while also being a complete story in and of itself. Something I think he achieved pretty well. 
 

The writers had eight hours - the equivalent of a trilogy of feature length movies - to adapt about 2/3rds of one book (after correctly cutting Caemlyn and much of Rand/Mat’s backpacking trip) and they still failed.

Edited December 31, 2021 by WoTwasThat

[WoTwasThat]

2 hours ago, fra85uk said:

Instead wot showrunners do not trust/like RJ work to the point that i ask myself why did they wanted to adapt it in first place.

I think Rafe and crew like the WOT - but not every fan gives as much value to the same story elements. They and/or Amazon want to focus heavily on the “strong female characters” angle. And that is part of WOT. The problem is that they are doing it to the detriment of the male characters, and to the detriment of the fundamental dichotomy between Saidar/Saidin, the taint, and the DR being reincarnated into a world and a magic system stacked against him. So naturally a lot of us are really unhappy about this, but I think it goes a bit too far to say that Rafe doesn’t like WOT.