How did the show hold up for you?

[Yojimbo]

19 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

You don't find this show far different in tone to GoT?  Tonally, what do you find similar between the two? 

First, in the interest of full disclosure, I quit reading the GoT books midway through the second book.   I tried the show because friends told me it was in some ways better than the books.  Didn't make it past season 1.   

 

That being said, one of the things I loved about the WoT  books is that sense if innocence from the EF kids.   The interactions between them spoke of a group of friends who loved each other.  The teasing, the way they would lean on each other at times, the way they would give them tough love when it was necessary.   I loved these people.      From the first episode on I have not gotten that feeling (much, there have been a couple of good moments, mostly because of the actor playing Mat) .   There has been a lot of brooding, and mistrust, cynicism. and whining from them right from the beginning.  These are the things I disliked about many of the characters in GoT and one of the reasons (besides all the rape and incest) I gave up on it.  Rand and Egwene especially are more like who they become much later in the books.   It is incredibly jarring.      

Edited December 7, 2021 by Yojimbo

[imawizardurnot]

I found this webpage searching for discussion about the show from a book readers perspective. 

 

Some history for me. I have not finished the series. I havent even read any of the books since Book 10.  I was a sophmore in Highschool in 03. I read the books because my uncle had em and began to read them. I loved them but hit the pretty well known lull in books 8-10 and lost interest. I had other books to read. Im pretty sure I dove headfirst into Dune around that time. Anyway, what I'm getting to here is that this show is decided not for me. Book readers have relevant memories about certain scenes and minor plot points, and non-book readers are taking it an episode at a time absorbing it all in. Me? I remember most of the major plot points and remember quite a few minor ones but not with 100% accuracy. 

This show is really really entertaining, and I'm personally loving it.  I like the casting changes and I have even come around on some of the more major changes (Perrin having a wife). The Mystery of who DR is? Perfect for a show audience and honestly a cool little thing that book readers can keep in mind while non book reader friends wonder. Each change that I can remember has made sense to me. No Elayne? meh is that really a huge deal in what will probably amount to 50+ hours? I think book readers, as they are want to do, are making massive massive mountains out of molehills with some of the changes. I also have done this and will actively eviscerate the hobbit movies whenever someone brings them up. Don't get me started on GOT. As an old book reader,  I too wondered why Lan didnt ask about Rands sword. But does it really matter when it happens? Lan hasnt had time for small talk really in the times they are in the same place. The adaptation is good. Try to not be "book reader" when watching it and I think you will enjoy the whole thing more.  

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, Yojimbo said:

brooding, and mistrust, cynicism. and whining

Can you point to an example of this? I don't recall any of the mains having any of these characteristics. I mean, I guess Perrin broods some, but that's totally on brand with his early character.

 

1 hour ago, Yojimbo said:

Rand and Egwene especially are more like who they become much later in the books.

In what way?

[Spiritweaver1]

7 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

 The non book audience needs to know and connect to all these characters from episode 1, you cant treat some of them as an aside. Also, in book 1 Rand doesn't do alot, he is in places, the world is seen through his eyes, but until the end much of his story is running, hiding, and escaping. 

Why do you make the bolded statement?  Please provide your rationale.  I don't see why they have to do it in the show.  The book approach hooked me into the story well enough.  If Rand POV worked in the book it should work in the TV series.  The only reason I can think of that they did this was the obvious one that they want to mask who the DR is.  S1 using Moraine POV was a good way to mask it but then they decided she needed to be wounded in the battle and spend a bunch of screen time wounded.  I would have loved to be a fly on the wall when the show plot was being blocked out.  I am sure there were reasons for every change.  money, Amazon shopkeeper and IT executive interference,  time, etc.   

 

All I can say is decisions have consequences and when I get tired of thinking about the show I can go back to the books.  Starting TFH  now.  I probably should have waited until the season was over, instead of starting before it started.  It only sharpens my dissonance and I find myself wondering how/if they are going to get to a particular place in the later books from where they are wandering in Randland V2.

[Kudzu]

10 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Why do you make the bolded statement?  Please provide your rationale.  I don't see why they have to do it in the show.  The book approach hooked me into the story well enough.  If Rand POV worked in the book it should work in the TV series.  The only reason I can think of that they did this was the obvious one that they want to mask who the DR is.  S1 using Moraine POV was a good way to mask it but then they decided she needed to be wounded in the battle and spend a bunch of screen time wounded.  I would have loved to be a fly on the wall when the show plot was being blocked out.  I am sure there were reasons for every change.  money, Amazon shopkeeper and IT executive interference,  time, etc.   

 

All I can say is decisions have consequences and when I get tired of thinking about the show I can go back to the books.  Starting TFH  now.  I probably should have waited until the season was over, instead of starting before it started.  It only sharpens my dissonance and I find myself wondering how/if they are going to get to a particular place in the later books from where they are wandering in Randland V2.

 

By Ep7 everyone will be back to together and they'll be hitting The Ways on their way to Fal Dara and then The Eye. What exactly have they missed that makes you think they won't be able to get to future plot lines?

[Gothic Flame]

3 hours ago, Yojimbo said:

First, in the interest of full disclosure, I quit reading the GoT books midway through the second book.

I wish I did the same. I was halfway through the 4th book when I realized it wasn't what I wanted to read anymore...skimmed the latter half and that was it.

[Gothic Flame]

1 hour ago, imawizardurnot said:

Some history for me. I have not finished the series. I havent even read any of the books since Book 10.  I was a sophmore in Highschool in 03. I read the books because my uncle had em and began to read them. I loved them but hit the pretty well known lull in books 8-10 and lost interest.

Brandon Sanderson smoothed out the writing a good deal. The pace in those last books move fairly quick...you really want to read them. I almost envy you.

[AdamA]

21 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Why do you make the bolded statement?  Please provide your rationale.  I don't see why they have to do it in the show.  The book approach hooked me into the story well enough.  If Rand POV worked in the book it should work in the TV series. 

I'm not going to defend the approach, but the writers do say exactly what the person you're responding to said in the behind the scenes extras for episode one. They wanted to deemphasize Rand's POV and treat every character equally. Agree or not, the rationale they gave was that Jordan shifted in future books to deemphasize Rand's POV and treat other characters equally, and they felt that made the rest of the books tonally dissonant with Eye of the World, and they wanted to avoid that.

 

This is obviously a fan site, so consists only of people who liked the books, but I will note I didn't decide to read them until around 2010 or so and did notice a lot of the reviews I saw on Amazon mentioned things about the main character seeming to disappear for entire books and they lost interest. So it clearly didn't work for everyone.

[Scarloc99]

28 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Why do you make the bolded statement?  Please provide your rationale.  I don't see why they have to do it in the show.  The book approach hooked me into the story well enough.  If Rand POV worked in the book it should work in the TV series.  The only reason I can think of that they did this was the obvious one that they want to mask who the DR is.  S1 using Moraine POV was a good way to mask it but then they decided she needed to be wounded in the battle and spend a bunch of screen time wounded.  I would have loved to be a fly on the wall when the show plot was being blocked out.  I am sure there were reasons for every change.  money, Amazon shopkeeper and IT executive interference,  time, etc.   

 

All I can say is decisions have consequences and when I get tired of thinking about the show I can go back to the books.  Starting TFH  now.  I probably should have waited until the season was over, instead of starting before it started.  It only sharpens my dissonance and I find myself wondering how/if they are going to get to a particular place in the later books from where they are wandering in Randland V2.

Because if you dump a load of the xtra characters in season 2, or if you restrict the screen time of characters in season 1 so they seem secondary then the audience become less connected to them when in later seasons they carry huge parts of the story. 
 

Also as a TV show you want to appeal

to a broad audience, if someone does not connect with Rand then there are other main characters to connect to. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Sir_Charrid

[Ryrin]

3 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

"Charm" is an inherently subjective thing.

I get where that’s coming from. One can’t actually say this new Mat with his thieving and brooding is the Mat from the books. 

[Ryrin]

7 hours ago, Deviations said:

No fever dream

No learning the sword

No questions about his possession of a heron mark sword

No standing atop a ships mast and the hi-wire journey down

No flute

No Else 

No Elayne

No Elaida fortelling Rand's impact

No almost fight with a White Cloak

 

Instead we get him mooning over Egwene and Lan ripping his shirt open.

?

[Kudzu]

5 minutes ago, AdamA said:

I'm not going to defend the approach, but the writers do say exactly what the person you're responding to said in the behind the scenes extras for episode one. They wanted to deemphasize Rand's POV and treat every character equally. Agree or not, the rationale they gave was that Jordan shifted in future books to deemphasize Rand's POV and treat other characters equally, and they felt that made the rest of the books tonally dissonant with Eye of the World, and they wanted to avoid that.

 

This is obviously a fan site, so consists only of people who liked the books, but I will note I didn't decide to read them until around 2010 or so and did notice a lot of the reviews I saw on Amazon mentioned things about the main character seeming to disappear for entire books and they lost interest. So it clearly didn't work for everyone.

 

Starting with the ensemble was a good choice IMO. Following the book POVs just wouldn't work for TV.

 

Imagine the conversation with Josha when they get to season 3. "Yes Josha, I know you're the star of the show and everyone loves you. But we've gotta stick to the books, you've only got 3 episodes this season."

[PerrinsShadow]

Someone said the Books are from Rands POV, that is just silly, there are different character arcs throughout the book series. I personally love the Perrin and Mat characters and their side stories. The first season could have easily stayed closer to the books and opened up each character as they were introduced. To add non canon characters and cut major plot points just seems like Rafe wanted to do his own story not the WoT story. 

[Scarloc99]

3 hours ago, Yojimbo said:

First, in the interest of full disclosure, I quit reading the GoT books midway through the second book.   I tried the show because friends told me it was in some ways better than the books.  Didn't make it past season 1.   

 

That being said, one of the things I loved about the WoT  books is that sense if innocence from the EF kids.   The interactions between them spoke of a group of friends who loved each other.  The teasing, the way they would lean on each other at times, the way they would give them tough love when it was necessary.   I loved these people.      From the first episode on I have not gotten that feeling (much, there have been a couple of good moments, mostly because of the actor playing Mat) .   There has been a lot of brooding, and mistrust, cynicism. and whining from them right from the beginning.  These are the things I disliked about many of the characters in GoT and one of the reasons (besides all the rape and incest) I gave up on it.  Rand and Egwene especially are more like who they become much later in the books.   It is incredibly jarring.      

Yep it is innocent, until Mat starts bedding a women in every town, the rapes start, the Perrin Faille BDSM relationship begins, the orgies and the sex are not in your face but it is all there. I always felt that 3 nearly 20 year old boys who where that inept around women made no real sense, especially considering Rand ends up in a poly situation and Mat has a women in every town. As a story I have been told (not read GOT) that WOT contains as much sex and raunch as GOT it was the tv show that made it that graphic. 
 

As for the mistrust, Rand and Egwene spends 15 books not trusting each other, that starts as soon as they get in the road really, Mat spends most of the books trying to get away from the rest, Perrin has a sense of honor. The weight of responsibility changes them all a lot through the books and then they come back together but, rand uses and manipulates his friends a lot. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Sir_Charrid

[Pembie]

1 hour ago, Gothic Flame said:

Brandon Sanderson smoothed out the writing a good deal. The pace in those last books move fairly quick...you really want to read them. I almost envy you.

Yeah I’m getting pretty bored with it now Its all taking too long now but I read this far so I will try to carry on I have found the whole thing pretty slow to be honest 

I haven’t watched the show yet waiting till I finish it sounds like they have changed the whole story though 

[DaddyFinn]

7 hours ago, Deviations said:

Maybe charm wasn't important to the show runner.

This must be the case. 

[Terry05]

5 hours ago, PerrinsShadow said:

Someone said the Books are from Rands POV, that is just silly, there are different character arcs throughout the book series. I personally love the Perrin and Mat characters and their side stories. The first season could have easily stayed closer to the books and opened up each character as they were introduced. To add non canon characters and cut major plot points just seems like Rafe wanted to do his own story not the WoT story. 

I think you'll find that Books 1 and 2, especially 1 are told mainly from Rands POV

Edited December 8, 2021 by Terry05

[notpropaganda73]

11 hours ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

If Rand POV worked in the book it should work in the TV series.

 

I think we should have had more Rand at this point in the show without a doubt, and they have missed opportunities for small moments for all of our EF5, but if they had followed Rand's POV from book to screen it would result in an awful television series imo.

[fra85uk]

Yes that's the thing: giving Rand too much screentime would Have Been bad for the development of other main characters but what they did is still bad, even if from an apposite direction

 

Imagine Harry Potter or Frodo having a similar treatment in the movies...

Edited December 8, 2021 by fra85uk

[imawizardurnot]

13 hours ago, Gothic Flame said:

Brandon Sanderson smoothed out the writing a good deal. The pace in those last books move fairly quick...you really want to read them. I almost envy you.

Oh I plan to. My reading has been on an uptick lately and I'm hoping to circle back around to Wheel of Time soon ™. Reading some Bernard Cornwell at the moment. 

Maybe im mixing up my writing styles here but isn't a lot of the WoT books internal monologue? I know dune had that problem and that made it difficult to film. 

[Gothic Flame]

11 minutes ago, imawizardurnot said:

Oh I plan to. My reading has been on an uptick lately and I'm hoping to circle back around to Wheel of Time soon ™. Reading some Bernard Cornwell at the moment. 

Maybe im mixing up my writing styles here but isn't a lot of the WoT books internal monologue? I know dune had that problem and that made it difficult to film. 

Nah. 

Always the interconnected talk between characters...

 

The prologue of book 12 is a mix of scenes, ending with a cold hard Faile..."sometimes a wife needs to do what a husband cannot."

[henfen]

14 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Yep it is innocent, until Mat starts bedding a women in every town, the rapes start, the Perrin Faille BDSM relationship begins, the orgies and the sex are not in your face but it is all there. I always felt that 3 nearly 20 year old boys who where that inept around women made no real sense, especially considering Rand ends up in a poly situation and Mat has a women in every town. As a story I have been told (not read GOT) that WOT contains as much sex and raunch as GOT it was the tv show that made it that graphic.

 

GOT, both in the books and tv show, is more like an X-rated WOT, with WOT being rated PG.  WOT has maybe 5% (if that) the amount of sex, raunch, and sexual violence as GOT.  They're a bit closer in straight up gore and violence.  The books (A Song of Ice and Fire) are incredibly graphic - but it's true that the show chose to focus a lot more on that instead of fleshing out the characters and their dialogue (like most books to tv adaptations are guilty of).

 

Some things can be read between the lines, but I find some of your summaries to be overstating.  Mat kissing, cuddling, dancing with, or dandling women on his knee doesn't necessarily mean he is having sex with them.  I can only think of 2 or 3 women in the whole series where it's made clear they're lovers.  I also don't find it at all a stretch of the imagination that 3 young men from a flyspeck village (where people are beaten for having sex out of wedlock) don't have much experience with women (hence Perrin ending up married to a passive aggressive, immature and jealous wife - what basis of comparison does he have?). 

 

We knew the Game of Thrones comparisons would be inevitable, which is unfortunate, because aside from being fantasy series with devoted followings, the series are pretty different, in content, writing styles, realism, and levels of nihilism, and the sense that things will turn out ok.  Even though WOT is considered "adult fiction", it's closer to Harry Potter in that innocent feeling of good triumphing over evil, rather than Game of Thrones/SOIAF, with it's brutal portrayals of sexual violence (sadly much more realistic in that sense) and tragic storylines for most of the characters.

[Gothic Flame]

8 minutes ago, henfen said:

We knew the Game of Thrones comparisons would be inevitable

We knew because Jeff Bezos said he wanted his own Game of Thrones

[henfen]

1 hour ago, Gothic Flame said:

We knew because Jeff Bezos said he wanted his own Game of Thrones

 

Very true that Bezos wanted "his own" GOT (barf). 

But even if he had never said so, the comparisons and the notion of WOT being  "The next Game of Thrones" was inevitable.  Bezos saying so was him just stating the obvious.

[Spiritweaver1]

18 hours ago, Kudzu said:

 

By Ep7 everyone will be back to together and they'll be hitting The Ways on their way to Fal Dara and then The Eye. What exactly have they missed that makes you think they won't be able to get to future plot lines?

Where is Bayle Domon, Elaida and Morgase not to mention other characters that wander through the books with significant roles.  Its not that that they can't get to those plot lines it is just that they have to make up new plot lines to connect to book ones ones or else the Amazon wheel is weaving a completely new pattern.

 

I think some of my carping is being misinterpreted.  I am trying very hard to judge this show on its own merits as a standalone fantasy creation.  That's why I am currently at like.  I don't like the show as an adaptation.  In my opinion it is a "based on" judging from E4&E5.  However Amazon is still weaving the pattern of the show and it is far too early to make any final judgements.  Rafe and his thread spinners are no doubt doing the best they can with what they have.

 

Everybody here can be a critic and it is fun do that.  However, none of us are actually charged with the duty to create a great WOT show that will take the world by storm.   IMHO this story even if it continues down it's current path will still be far better than GOT.  I couldn't even make it through season one of GOT my sister and i were watching it.  We decided to stop.  We called it Dark Ages West Wing.

 

 For me, forged as I was, in the fires of Mount Doom.  Is that the thing that binds all great fantasy together is some version of the hero's journey.  It should contain the elements of growing into full potential and reaching beyond perceived limitations to do so.  It should contain a noble purpose and it should contain metaphysics not of this world.  How about The Odyssey?  At any rate WOT has multiple hero's and follows their becoming, struggles and deeds.  It matters not to RJ whether you are man, woman, or wolf.  You can be a hero and stand against the forces of lies, lust for the flesh and power and love of causing pain and suffering.  We are gonna stuff all that sh*! back in it's prison.  That is our duty as human beings and we all need to learn how to do it.    Nuf said.