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Weird thought on Aiel Veils


Guire
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So a bit of grumbling came up about Tigraine being unveiled in Blood Snow scene from trailer.  Lots of ideas floated about subject.  It dawned on me that maybe veils other than shoufa being tucked under face may just disappear because of Covid and masking.  Showrunners may have decided that seeing actors faces is better but also they don't want to have to deal with any weird blowback from having face coverings associated with death in current world climate.  I know we have overly discussed gender issues and woke writing in other threads.  Oddly interviews and trailers have made me think these changes will be minor and probably no big deal if writing and acting is well done.  I wonder though if some changes we haven't thought of might occur and come out of left field.

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4 minutes ago, Guire said:

Showrunners may have decided that seeing actors faces is better but also they don't want to have to deal with any weird blowback from having face coverings associated with death in current world climate. 

Honestly? From a filming safety & insurance purposes, they'd 100% want to keep them regardless of the "climate" surrounding masks as it just makes everything easier on their part. 

 

However, if they do remove the veils, it probably has more to do with what you said previously, and that's being able to see the actors face. 

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What's interesting is they cast a stuntwoman as Tigraine, so the focus was definitely on making her action look good and she probably doesn't have much dialogue. Combine that with her clearly actually having a veil that's pulled down and it comes off as a strange decision.

 

In addition actually showing her face is something I'd think they'd want to avoid because that way it's easier to get away with a recast if they want to do flashbacks with her later and require someone with more acting experience.

Edited by AusLeviathan
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28 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

What's interesting is they cast a stuntwoman as Tigraine, so the focus was definitely on making her action look good and she probably doesn't have much dialogue. Combine that with her clearly actually having a veil that's pulled down and it comes off as a strange decision.

 

In addition actually showing her face is something I'd think they'd want to avoid because that way it's easier to get away with a recast if they want to do flashbacks with her later and require someone with more acting experience.

In one of the stills I saw her face was pretty clear.  She actually looks like she could be related to Rand.  I hope she has some small speaking parts just to have a good realization of Baby Rand being found by Tam.  Just a few lines as she dies would be cool.

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My thoughts:

1. I'm tired of people going batshit over every little thing before they see the context around it when the show is so close and they can just go batshit when it comes out.

2. It could have been pulled down during the fight by the person she's fighting.

3. If it's Tigraine, she's a wetlander, so maybe she is less careful about putting it on or hasn't perfected the swift movement, especially if she wasn't planning to fight. She's presumably pregnant so I doubt she's out on the front lines.

4. If it's Tigraine, her face will probably be important later - maybe a bad reason because they could have shown her before the fight starts than have her put it on.

5. This is one Aiel. It doesn't mean they aren't wearing the veils. But it may be that the important characters occasionally have their faces showing while fighting.

Edited by Deadsy
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21 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

1. I'm tired of people going batshit over every little thing before they see the context around it when the show is so close and they can just go batshit when it comes out.

Context is unnecessary in this situation. No Aiel would attempt to kill someone with their veil down (this is one of the most important aspects of their culture, even when running into battle naked they still find a way to veil themselves). Tigraine in canon dedicated herself to becoming an Aiel due to the foretelling she heard.

 

It's a change in the lore no matter what and a strange one given they cast a stuntwoman in the part and given that the role could've easily been portrayed without actually showing her face.

 

I'd put this down as likely being one of those changes that Sanderson disagreed with but Rafe decided he wanted to do anyway.

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38 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

My thoughts:

1. I'm tired of people going batshit over every little thing before they see the context around it when the show is so close and they can just go batshit when it comes out.

2. It could have been pulled down during the fight by the person she's fighting.

3. If it's Tigraine, she's a wetlander, so maybe she is less careful about putting it on or hasn't perfected the swift movement, especially if she wasn't planning to fight. She's presumably pregnant so I doubt she's out on the front lines.

4. If it's Tigraine, her face will probably be important later - maybe a bad reason because they could have shown her before the fight starts than have her put it on.

5. This is one Aiel. It doesn't mean they aren't wearing the veils. But it may be that the important characters occasionally have their faces showing while fighting.

I was making some pretty benign speculation.  I work about 80 hours a week in healthcare so I am constantly masking and unmasking in different situations.  It popped in my head that I do it unconsciously now like an Aiel before battle.  Then I thought oh crap that is kind of of horrific to equate masking with death. Pretty much purpose of this board is for us to over react to a TV show we mostly havent seen yet.  So I am sorry I have hurt your delicate feelings.  Guess Dragonmount has turned into another place I don't care to hang out.  

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26 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

Context is unnecessary in this situation. No Aiel would attempt to kill someone with their veil down (this is one of the most important aspects of their culture, even when running into battle naked they still find a way to veil themselves). Tigraine in canon dedicated herself to becoming an Aiel due to the foretelling she heard.

 

It's a change in the lore no matter what and a strange one given they cast a stuntwoman in the part and given that the role could've easily been portrayed without actually showing her face.

 

I'd put this down as likely being one of those changes that Sanderson disagreed with but Rafe decided he wanted to do anyway.

 

No, it's not a "change in the lore no matter what." The Aiel even have contests to try to remove someone else's veil. If a veil were to fall off during battle I'm sure they'd have toh, but without context you can't determine they changed the lore, yet. And again, she was born a wetlander.

 

I doubt this is a change Sanderson cared enough about to have been referring to it since it's not a big deal, unless they got rid of it completely.

 

21 minutes ago, Guire said:

I was making some pretty benign speculation.  I work about 80 hours a week in healthcare so I am constantly masking and unmasking in different situations.  It popped in my head that I do it unconsciously now like an Aiel before battle.  Then I thought oh crap that is kind of of horrific to equate masking with death. Pretty much purpose of this board is for us to over react to a TV show we mostly havent seen yet.  So I am sorry I have hurt your delicate feelings.  Guess Dragonmount has turned into another place I don't care to hang out.  

 

The comment wasn't aimed at you. It was aimed at the people who went crazy immediately upon seeing this clip. I didn't have any problem with your post whatsoever.

Edited by Deadsy
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28 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

No, it's not a "change in the lore no matter what." The Aiel even have contests to try to remove someone else's veil. If a veil were to fall off during battle I'm sure they'd have toh, but without context you can't determine they changed the lore, yet. And again, she was born a wetlander.

They do not kill without a veil, I know it's become popular over on the main reddit sub to pretend that changes aren't actually changes and act like it's what RJ intended all along but that doesn't make it true.

 

Tigraine as she was in the books would not have attempted to kill someone whilst not veiled, no Aiel would, to do so would bring them more shame then they could bare. Tigraine was an Aiel at this point, there was nothing left of her old wetlander self.

 

So yes it is a change to the lore no matter what and one that is fairly unnecessary given the role and who was cast.

 

That said from what we've seen and heard this is just one of many changes to both characters personalities, backstories, cultures, prop designs and even the general mechanics of the world so I think by the time we actually see this part in the show people will have reached acceptance that there's no point being upset by the changes anymore.

 

28 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

I doubt this is a change Sanderson cared enough about to have been referring to it since it's not a big deal, unless they got rid of it completely.

This is definitely the sort of change that I could see Sanderson objecting to due to the later effects of the story (it is a big deal actually even if it's only a few Aiel shown to do this because of how important it is to their culture, this is another thing that's popular on the main reddit sub at the moment, pretending important things that were changed were never important to begin with).

 

It's also the sort of change I could see Rafe refusing to budge over, since it means he can show Aiel faces whenever he wants to and doesn't have to worry about how to portray action scenes in a way that makes it clear who is who.

Edited by AusLeviathan
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15 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

They do not kill without a veil, I know it's become popular over on the main reddit sub to pretend that changes aren't actually changes and act like it's what RJ intended all along but that doesn't make it true.

 

Tigraine as she was in the books would not have attempted to kill someone whilst not veiled, no Aiel would, to do so would bring them more shame then they could bare. Tigraine was an Aiel at this point, there was nothing left of her old wetlander self.

 

So yes it is a change to the lore no matter what and one that is fairly unnecessary given the role and who was cast.

 

That said from what we've seen and heard this is just one of many changes to both characters personalities, backstories, cultures, prop designs and even the general mechanics of the world so I think by the time we actually see this part in the show people will have reached acceptance that there's no point being upset by the changes anymore.

 

This is definitely the sort of change that I could see Sanderson objecting to due to the later effects of the story (it is a big deal actually even if it's only a few Aiel shown to do this because of how important it is to their culture, this is another thing that's popular on the main reddit sub at the moment, pretending important things that were changed were never important to begin with).

 

It's also the sort of change I could see Rafe refusing to budge over, since it means he can show Aiel faces whenever he wants to and doesn't have to worry about how to portray action scenes in a way that makes it clear who is who.

 

 

I don't think it's many people's take that an Aiel wouldn't kill a wetlander if their veil was somehow removed, therefore it is not a change to lore no matter what. I think they probably did change the lore in order to show her face, but I happen to not care. The fact they have veils means it's likely going to be rare. Not sure if it's gonna be black though.

I don't get why you're obsessing over her being a stunt woman. If she is Tigraine that is all that matters when it comes to showing her face or not. Unless you are arguing with someone who thinks the actor required her face to be shown.

Edited by Deadsy
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1 minute ago, Deadsy said:

I don't think it's many people's take that an Aiel wouldn't kill a wetlander if their veil was somehow removed, therefore it is not a change to lore no matter what. I think they probably did change the lore in order to show her face, but I happen to not care.

The lore is very clear, they won't kill anyone if they aren't veiled, this is part of who they are, part of what lead to the split, part of what makes them Aiel.

 

Quote

Who are you that addresses me so? Hide your face from me, stranger. I had a son, once, with a face like that. I do not wish to see it on a killer.

Perhaps the single best written section of the books, the portrayal of the Aiel losing their way and becoming who they are today and the way it ties into how they act in the present day.  The way they hide their faces when killing in an attempt to stay true to the old ways they no longer remember.

 

This has now been lost entirely because they couldn't bother keeping an Aiel veiled whilst killing.

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The covid idea is an interesting thought, but if that were the case I wonder if veiling, depending on the material and how it was attached, wouldn’t that make it easier for them to film? (Probably a stretch but they could’ve had covid masks underneath?) 

Also, from a financial and liability standpoint I see it saving money unless the actor wanted to do their own stunts. I know in this instance it has been mentioned a stuntwoman was cast as Tigraine, but I’m speaking for every actor that would be Aiel. It could potentially streamline battle scenes for time using more stunt doubles and save them money / protect their leads from getting hurt. 
 

But the more characters we become familiar with the more difficult it would be to differentiate them on screen during armed conflicts. If they remove them, which I really hope they don’t, I think this would be one of the major deciding factors. Think of Finn in Star Wars, they have a bloody hand mark his helmet so we can differentiate on who we are supposed to care about during the introduction of his character. They would be restricted to one Aiel during battle sequences. Otherwise they would be jumping from veil to veil and we wouldn’t have any true reference point as to who is who.  
 

1. It is possible the veil was removed in battle as a reveal. 

 

2. It is possible they got rid of them so we can see actors faces. Which I think would be a fruitless change, but on screen might make sense. Another recent example is Dune. During Paul’s dream he sees a figure in a mask and the figure takes his helmet off during battle to reveal it is him…why would this character do that? They wouldn’t, but we needed to know who we are looking at. 
 

 

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35 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

Another recent example is Dune. During Paul’s dream he sees a figure in a mask and the figure takes his helmet off during battle to reveal it is him…why would this character do that? They wouldn’t, but we needed to know who we are looking at. 

This sort of thing is mostly a result of Hollywood lacking creativity when it comes to things like this.

 

They could have shown us the vision from Paul's POV. They could have given Paul a tic and used that to subtly reveal who it was. They could have revealed it through him speaking. They could have revealed it through someone saying his name. There are so many possible ways they could do it.

 

It's an American made movie though so that means they went with a comical reveal as he stops mid battle to pose like he's in Power Rangers as his dead eyed face is superimposed onto the open helmet. In a visually stunning movie it really stood out as one of those "we've paid for an actor so we're going to show their face no matter what" moments.

Edited by AusLeviathan
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3 hours ago, Deadsy said:

1. I'm tired of people going batshit over every little thing before they see the context around it when the show is so close and they can just go batshit when it comes out.

Same. This thread is already ruined by this stuff. I guess some think that Tigraine should just stop fighting and be killed with her unborn child the moment her veil drops.

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8 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

I guess some think that Tigraine should just stop fighting and be killed with her unborn child the moment her veil drops.

If the only two options are herself dying or killing someone whilst not veiled then yes book Tigraine would choose to die, as would anyone who has accepted the Aiel ways. I'm not sure why this is in question as the books are very clear about this.

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7 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

If the only two options are herself dying or killing someone whilst not veiled then yes book Tigraine would choose to die, as would anyone who has accepted the Aiel ways. I'm not sure why this is in question as the books are very clear about this.

 

 

I don't think it is clear. I think the majority would say an Aiel would kill a wetlander even if their veil fell off. They put the veil on to show they have an intent to kill. There is no passage in the books that states what happens except when fighting another Aiel, I believe they will always let themselves be taken gai'shain.

Edited by Deadsy
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9 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

If the only two options are herself dying or killing someone whilst not veiled then yes book Tigraine would choose to die, as would anyone who has accepted the Aiel ways. I'm not sure why this is in question as the books are very clear about this.

As if the Pattern would have let her die too soon and taken Rand with her. I won't continue this discussion until we see the full context.

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6 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

I don't think it is clear. I think the majority would say an Aiel would kill a wetlander even if their veil fell off.

It's very clear, it's their entire culture, a corruption of when they first killed and were told to hide their face so that those who kept to the way of the leaf would not see killers they knew. This evolved into their need to ensure that their face was never shown when killing so that others would never know their face as the face of a killer.

 

Over time the original reason was forgotten and they no longer remembered it until the Clan Chiefs and Wise One's became able to see their past and became secret keepers for the truth, that their entire culture was based on hiding their shame at having lost their way.

 

The Aiel don't know why they must veil themselves when killing, they only know that to not do so would be against everything the Aiel stand for. It is simply not something any actual Aiel would do, even when faced with a wetlander, because this isn't about their opponents honor, it is about their own honor, about what makes them who they are.

 

We are talking about a people so strongly held to honor that to learn the truth of their past caused many to throw down their spears and run away, to give up everything they knew from the shame. These are not people who would ever break a fundamental part of what makes them Aiel, nor would anyone who they have judged to have accepted their ways.

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1 hour ago, DaddyFinn said:

In one of the clips she stabs him in the abdomen/ribs

 

But if an Aiel would not kill without her veil, and can't stop fighting and be taken Gai'shain, would they perhaps be willing to give a non-mortal blow, then finish him off after reveiling

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18 minutes ago, Ralph said:

But if an Aiel would not kill without her veil, and can't stop fighting and be taken Gai'shain, would they perhaps be willing to give a non-mortal blow, then finish him off after reveiling

 


Yes. So again, people should wait for context. It could very well be they don't even have veils, or it could be she couldn't get it on in time and pulls it up after she hits him the first time. A stab in the sternum isn't necessarily instant death.

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This whole discussion is so weird to me. It's a visual medium. Of course they're going to show her face. That's how TV works. The detail of lore about why Aiel veil their faces will likely never make it into the show anyway, so audiences will be none the wiser. If you're so worked up about a minor change made to better adapt the story to a visual medium, you will hate the show, because there are way bigger changes coming.

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