On "Wokeness" and the Wheel of Time - Be Thoughtful in Responding

[Rose]

26 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

To those people who keep defending massive changes like this, 

 

You like these changes because they align with your own worldview, and you'll accept any change so long as it serves to reinforce your preexisting beliefs. Your defense isn't rooted in any sort of principle or desire to see WoT done right but in loyalty to yourself. In essence, you've always viewed the original WoT as flawed, an inferior and outdated version which only needed to be remade in your image to achieve true perfection. 

 

I view all media as flawed. The books were flawed. The show will be too. I just want to enjoy it. Enjoyment is, of course, completely subjective, so it makes sense that some people find it impossible to enjoy the show with these changes while others don't mind. I just don't think changing things is by default objectively good or bad. Different people will appreciate different things.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Rose

[Ralph]

27 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

To those people who keep defending massive changes like this, 

 

You like these changes because they align with your own worldview, and you'll accept any change so long as it serves to reinforce your preexisting beliefs. Your defense isn't rooted in any sort of principle or desire to see WoT done right but in loyalty to yourself. In essence, you've always viewed the original WoT as flawed, an inferior and outdated version which only needed to be remade in your image to achieve true perfection. 

 

Sorry, but this is outrageous

[Rose]

19 minutes ago, mogi68 said:

Don't gendered souls actually support the notion of transgenderism, though? IE even though I may be born into a male body, my essence is female. If the soul is not gendered, then there's no way to decide whether you channel saidar or saidin unless it's controlled by the body physiology. It seems like this is just going to muddy the waters.

 

I'm sure it's not going to really be a problem in the actual show, but theorycrafters may have a rough time with this.

 

 

Yes, this is what I thought too, but I've seen a trans WoT fan say that souls not being gendered actually makes more sense to her, so maybe there's something I'm not getting.

 

Maybe it also has to do with allowing for the existence of non-binary people. If your soul HAS to be male or female to be able to channel saidin or saidar, then non-binary people can't exist. So maybe they decided to remove gender from the soul and make it more of an intangible thing. (Not that souls are tangible... But you know what I mean. You don't need to believe in souls to know you're a man for example).

[Ralph]

2 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

Sorry, but this is outrageous

 

Can I suggest that perhaps the people who persist in seeing these minimal changes as signs of the show runner having no interest in the source material:

 

You dislike these changes because they don't align with your own worldview, and you'll accept no change at all unless  it serves to reinforce your preexisting beliefs. Your opposition isn't rooted in any sort of principle or desire to see WoT done right but in loyalty to yourself. 

[Rose]

22 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

My thought on this is that souls will be gendered...based on whether they touch saidin/saidar. Might get something where rather than Male/Female souls you get Saidin/Saidar souls. Saidin souls are more likely to be born male but not required to be? 

 

Not sure. But it does support the idea that your essence and who you are are more separate from your body. 

 

It ties more/less into gender fluidity than transgender theory...though I'm by no means an expert on that. 

 

Oh this is a really interesting take. I like it.

[MasterAblar]

2 minutes ago, Rose said:

 

Yes, this is what I thought too, but I've seen a trans WoT fan say that souls not being gendered actually makes more sense to her, so maybe there's something I'm not getting.

 

Maybe it also has to do with allowing for the existence of non-binary people. If your soul HAS to be male or female to be able to channel saidin or saidar, then non-binary people can't exist. So maybe they decided to remove gender from the soul and make it more of an intangible thing. (Not that souls are tangible... But you know what I mean. You don't need to believe in souls to know you're a man for example).

 

I fail to see what being transgender has to do with the soul. Especially in the WoT where souls are things that are verified to truly exist. Someone could be born in a man's body but end up being transgender no matter what their soul says. 

 

To me there just isn't a link between the soul and gender identity.

[Rose]

1 minute ago, MasterAblar said:

 

I fail to see what being transgender has to do with the soul. Especially in the WoT where souls are things that are verified to truly exist. Someone could be born in a man's body but end up being transgender no matter what their soul says. 

 

To me there just isn't a link between the soul and gender identity.

 

Yes I think this is what they're going for, though I admit to being confused, and I go back and forth on how they'll connect it to channeling.

 

I guess I'll have to watch and find out ?

[Ralph]

1 hour ago, Rose said:

 

Well. I personally don't think it's the body. I think you channel the half that matches your gender, and that's it. Are you a woman? Then you channel saidar. Are you a man? Then you channel saidin. Body parts don't need to be involved.

 

I meant body as opposed to soul. 

[Elder_Haman]

Actually, this could be handled in a far less complicated and easier to swallow way:

 

Souls are ungendered until they are spun back into the pattern. A channeler's connection to saidin or saidar is made at the same time. So it is still true that only female souls link to saidar and only male souls link to saidin. 

 

In the past there have been both male and female Champions of the Light. As the show opens, we don't know who that Champion is. It soon becomes clear. The stakes are raised because of the Corruption and we are meant to be scared that the Dragon will side with the Dark One.

 

Rand is still LTT reborn. So no gender switching is happening. And the change does not have to impact the entire structure of the Wheel. (Though I'm not sure how that squares with the Heroes - that lore will have to be messed with) 

[MasterAblar]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

Actually, this could be handled in a far less complicated and easier to swallow way:

 

Souls are ungendered until they are spun back into the pattern. A channeler's connection to saidin or saidar is made at the same time. So it is still true that only female souls link to saidar and only male souls link to saidin. 

 

In the past there have been both male and female Champions of the Light. As the show opens, we don't know who that Champion is. It soon becomes clear. The stakes are raised because of the Corruption and we are meant to be scared that the Dragon will side with the Dark One.

 

Rand is still LTT reborn. So no gender switching is happening. And the change does not have to impact the entire structure of the Wheel. (Though I'm not sure how that squares with the Heroes - that lore will have to be messed with) 

 

That might very well work but to be honest I'm tired of trying to think of ways to twist the lore from the books to make it fit with what they're doing in the show. Especially when its very clear they're just going "ye nah" and straight up changing things because they think its better this way for whatever reason. They clearly aren't bothered with changing fairly essential parts of the world, so at this point I'm pretty much gonna accept the show as a completely alternate WoT universe.

[Elder_Haman]

25 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

I'm tired of trying to think of ways to twist the lore from the books to make it fit with what they're doing in the show.

I get you. And Brandon did say it helped to think of it as 'another turning'. What I'm doing is trying to put thought into the nature of the change - and to understand whether there is a larger purpose being served.

 

I keep coming back around to thinking about the ending. If you want people to believe Rand might fail (or side with the Dark One), do you also want to keep alive the possibility that Egwene will defeat him for purposes of narrative tension? And if you do, do you leave open the narrative possibility that Egwene is the Champion for as long as possible?

 

It does make sense to me when I look at it from that angle. I don't particularly like it. But I can conceive of reasons for its utility. 

 

EDIT:

This quote from Rafe's interview with Deadline gives me lots of hope:

Quote

 “For me, I always have to approach it as if we’re going to get to tell the whole story that’s in the books. If we don’t approach it that way, then we’d set ourselves up to not stick the landing and these books have such a good ending. I really need to set us up to get there if we’re able to. That’s not up to me ultimately. If people watch it and Amazon wants to keep doing more, I’d love to continue to expand this world further.”

Because this, more than anything, is what I want. Haven't had a really good fantasy that sticks the landing since Return of the King.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Elder_Haman

[Rose]

33 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

I meant body as opposed to soul. 

 

I'm going back and forth on whether they'll make channeling tied to the body, to the soul, or to gender as a third characteristic that is separate from both body and soul. I think I'm confusing myself ?

 

But if they want to allow for the existence of non-binary people, then they probably can't make channeling tied to gender because it would mean you can only have two genders. (This is the opposite of what I said before, I know. My thought process is ongoing)

 

So, if channeling isn't tied to gender, maybe it is tied to body. 

 

I honestly don't know at this point lol

[Rose]

37 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Actually, this could be handled in a far less complicated and easier to swallow way:

 

Souls are ungendered until they are spun back into the pattern. A channeler's connection to saidin or saidar is made at the same time. So it is still true that only female souls link to saidar and only male souls link to saidin. 

 

In the past there have been both male and female Champions of the Light. As the show opens, we don't know who that Champion is. It soon becomes clear. The stakes are raised because of the Corruption and we are meant to be scared that the Dragon will side with the Dark One.

 

Rand is still LTT reborn. So no gender switching is happening. And the change does not have to impact the entire structure of the Wheel. (Though I'm not sure how that squares with the Heroes - that lore will have to be messed with) 

 

Yes this is what I was thinking too, but then it means there are only two genders. Which might be what they're going for. But I suspect they'll want to be nonbinary-inclusive as well. If a soul is spun back into the pattern as nonbinary, does it link with saidin or saidar?

 

[swollymammoth]

47 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

Can I suggest that perhaps the people who persist in seeing these minimal changes as signs of the show runner having no interest in the source material:

 

You dislike these changes because they don't align with your own worldview, and you'll accept no change at all unless  it serves to reinforce your preexisting beliefs. Your opposition isn't rooted in any sort of principle or desire to see WoT done right but in loyalty to yourself. 

Any and all changes should be made with exactly 1 goal in mind: To translate the story of the books into a new medium. Television doesn't allow for the same kinds of storytelling as books do, and changes should be made to accommodate for this. 

 

The show should not be a vehicle for Rafe to communicate his own ideas about the soul and body in relation to gender, and any defense of this can only be self-serving. 

 

AGAIN I SAY that if Rafe were making changes that agreed with my own political beliefs, I would reject those outright as well. I don't need a TV show to echo my own ideas back at me in order to feel validated. 

[DojoToad]

So now it is Champion of the Light, which could be the Dragon but doesn’t have to be. Where did that term even come from?  I honestly don’t remember it. Did someone refer to the Dragon as the CotL in the books?

[Ralph]

3 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

So now it is Champion of the Light, which could be the Dragon but doesn’t have to be. Where did that term even come from?  I honestly don’t remember it. Did someone refer to the Dragon as the CotL in the books?

 

Robert Jordan: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once—you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

Robert Jordan interview, January 2003

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 16 January 2003, Dayton, OH - Tim Kington reporting

Edited November 10, 2021 by Ralph

[Elder_Haman]

13 minutes ago, Rose said:

 

Yes this is what I was thinking too, but then it means there are only two genders. Which might be what they're going for. But I suspect they'll want to be nonbinary-inclusive as well. If a soul is spun back into the pattern as nonbinary, does it link with saidin or saidar?

I'd say that there a no non-binary channelers. There may be non-binary people, but they can't channel.

[Beidomon]

What a totally unnecessary mess this is. All because of an effort to “update the material” to conform to woke sensibilities.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Beidomon

[MasterAblar]

12 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I'd say that there a no non-binary channelers. There may be non-binary people, but they can't channel.

 

And that is it's own issue.

[TheMountain]

This is not another turning, but a different universe.

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, TheMountain said:

This is not another turning, but a different universe.

I don't see it that way at all. And it seems the reviews are trending very positive.

[Ryan al'Thor]

4 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

What a totally unnecessary mess this is. All because of an effort to “update the material” to conform to woke sensibilities.

Yeah I’m not sure why you upend the story to accommodate less than 1% of the population.

[TheDreadReader]

24 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

So now it is Champion of the Light, which could be the Dragon but doesn’t have to be. Where did that term even come from?  I honestly don’t remember it. Did someone refer to the Dragon as the CotL in the books?

 

I think that it is a fan-coined phrase to reflect RJ's comments about Amerasu being the one the wheel spins out when a female 'dragon' is needed.  If she isn't the Dragon then what other term do you have to use?

 

 

 

 

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

I actually think so to be honest. I always felt Halima/Aran'gar was something interesting that was not fleshed out more and I was disappointed about that (much like Shara was not a factor). It's definitely an unfair criticism considering how rich the world RJ gave us that I wanted more! 

 

1 hour ago, mogi68 said:

Don't gendered souls actually support the notion of transgenderism, though? IE even though I may be born into a male body, my essence is female. If the soul is not gendered, then there's no way to decide whether you channel saidar or saidin unless it's controlled by the body physiology. It seems like this is just going to muddy the waters.

 

I'm sure it's not going to really be a problem in the actual show, but theorycrafters may have a rough time with this.

 

So, regarding Halima. The Trans communibity hates the idea of comparing Halima to Trans. Even bringing it up is taboo. I can't even really go into why that is, as it's not an area of thought/philosophy/politics I've bothered to delve much into. The gyst of what I have read, is... "Binary Gendered Souls" are bad, and they want "Non-Binary/Trans/etc" souls. Or something like that.

 

Now, to WoT lore.

 

Binary Male/Female genders, Saidar/Saidin tied to the soul. The primary ripple effect of tying the souls gender to Saidar/Saidin, is to explain Halima.

 

Remove Halima from the equation, remove the "Soul Gender" concept, or alter it as such that your souls gender is assigned at birth, it's possible to keep that souls gender until it's spun out again, and assigned a gender.

 

Even then, we have a Saidar/Saidin women/man binary that's still not a "woke" magic system.

 

We still don't know, if they've even kept Saidar/Saidin in the show, or if they scrapped it entirely, or how they're going to explain only men get the taint.

 

Few of the naysayers have barely picked up on various producers stating "Magic only women can use", which really does sound like producer speak for "we had the cliff notes read to us while we were pooping".

 

Quote

 

I fail to see what being transgender has to do with the soul. Especially in the WoT where souls are things that are verified to truly exist. Someone could be born in a man's body but end up being transgender no matter what their soul says. 

 

 

 

To me there just isn't a link between the soul and gender identity.

This quote struck me.

 

The Only entity in the Wheel of Time that we Canonically knows for a Fact souls exist, and how they Work, is the Dark One. The Dark One is the only entity that can interact with the "Soul". 

 

What I find interesting, is how much people know something is a fact but we never find out how they know it's a fact.

 

In WoT books, somehow they know souls have a gender, like we know gravity exists.

 

In the WoT TV show, somehow they know about Dragons before LTT, well after "myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again".

 

I find the possibility of Aes Sedai being ignorant about Saidar/Saidin interesting, while the possibility that they know historical facts their book counterparts we're ingorant about is mind boggling.

 

 

As a final aside: Rand's kids were supposed to be weird. It's been said they channel the one power at all times. That they channel both Saidin and Saidar. For all we know, the 4th age spun out "trans" souls.

[MasterAblar]

1 minute ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

I think that it is a fan-coined phrase to reflect RJ's comments about Amerasu being the one the wheel spins out when a female 'dragon' is needed.  If she isn't the Dragon then what other term do you have to use?

 

 

 

 

 

There was the term adversary used in Eye of the World I believe which could potentially be applied to whoever the Dark One opponent is in any given age. Did RJ actually say Amerasu specifically was a "female" dragon or just an exemple of a hero that could be spun out if a female hero was needed?