On "Wokeness" and the Wheel of Time - Be Thoughtful in Responding

[notpropaganda73]

1 minute ago, JaimAybara said:

It was a WoT fandom channel. So, in my eyes if hardcore fans are actually making wild claims like that, I am yes, making the logical leap that comments like that may have been casually thrown around by executives or those involved in the show that aren’t ardent fans. Again, as I said I will wait and see, but I’m just going off what I did see in the promo, paired with fandom YouTube channel comments. Just like some of us will riff off of what each other say here. It wasn’t some ragtag channel that’s never heard of the series.

 

I just don't see the connection between what might happen in a writers' room/studio exec decisions and a YouTube channel commenting. The YouTube comment was stupid and I agree with you on that, but the much more likely scenario from the promo clip we have seen is that the veil comes off as a reveal that it is a woman. Whether the idea was floated that the Aiel no longer veil themselves in combat, it's an absolutely core part of their culture and I can't see it being discarded. 

 

If it is I'll hold my hands up, as I mentioned in my initial post that is the sort of thing that I really need the show to get right as the series is so good at building up these cultural differences and making each society so distinct from one another. 

[Beidomon]

3 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

I just don't see the connection between what might happen in a writers' room/studio exec decisions and a YouTube channel commenting. The YouTube comment was stupid and I agree with you on that, but the much more likely scenario from the promo clip we have seen is that the veil comes off as a reveal that it is a woman. Whether the idea was floated that the Aiel no longer veil themselves in combat, it's an absolutely core part of their culture and I can't see it being discarded. 

 

If it is I'll hold my hands up, as I mentioned in my initial post that is the sort of thing that I really need the show to get right as the series is so good at building up these cultural differences and making each society so distinct from one another. 

It’s quite possible that the veil was pulled off by an assailant during combat. This is a “ruby’s in the wrong place” kind of issue for me

[DaddyFinn]

7 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

It’s quite possible that the veil was pulled off by an assailant during combat. This is a “ruby’s in the wrong place” kind of issue for me

This is what I guess. Her face must be important in the future

[swollymammoth]

14 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Your definition of "woke" is seeing lots of different cultures and people represented, the portrayal of strong aggressive women who don't fit traditional gender stereotypes, and the inclusion of gay and lesbian characters and sexual relationships;

This is sooooooooo reductionist, and I'm not surprised. Diversity does not equal woke, and this is not the problem that anyone intelligent has with the WoT TV adaptation. Some people just choose to see it this way because it's easier than actually trying to understand where people who are upset with the show's approach are coming from. 

 

"Woke" is all about the mindset of the creators. There are tons of diverse movies and books which are not woke. I wouldn't consider Django Unchained woke, for example, because it doesn't preach to me and it puts entertainment and good storytelling first. Star Trek and Star Trek TNG are also not woke even though both are fairly liberal in their worldview. Dune isn't woke (thank goodness) even though it does have a lot to say about colonialism and is, all-in-all, a very political book/movie. 

 

Now, we don't know for certain that WoTTV is gonna be woke. It certainly seems that way, but we don't know for sure. (Worthy of note, however, is Amazon Studio's Inclusion Playbook which actively encourages hiring based on demographics rather than experience). 

 

Imagine this: a 50 year old woman is cast to play Egwene. Would this be a problem? Would that make it difficult for you to imagine her as Egwene? I mean, not according to this forum. After all, acting is all that matters, right? If you have a problem with that, you're an ageist! Gasp! 

 

Anyone who has a problem with the casting is immediately framed as a racist or against diverse representation. For some people, the casting does not match what we've always imagined, and that breaks our sense of immersion and is going to be a barrier in the way of us engaging fully with the show. It would be the same if Moiraine was blonde or Rand had blue hair or if Perrin became a Wolfsibling because Wolfbrother was too gendered for 2021, or if the Ogier were 5 feet tall. 

 

One of the hallmarks of a woke production is that its critics are always framed as morally wrong rather than just people who creatively disagree with the show. Just look to the marketing for the Eternals ("Looks like we're pissing off the right people") or Captain Marvel ("I don't want white men to watch Captain Marvel"). 

 

It is this vilifying of dissenting opinions which is really representative of "woke" culture in general, and that's something that I've seen even on this forum (In this very post that I'm responding to!). 

 

Ultimately, the problem with WoT TV being woke is that woke writers are really, really lazy. They're used to preaching to the choir, and so their stories end up being lame, soulless, and rarely manage to connect with anyone who isn't already sitting in the pews. Despite all the preaching about diversity and inclusion, woke stories tend to shrink their audiences rather than expand them, and it would be too bad for that to happen to WoT. 

[swollymammoth]

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

Nynaeve killing a trolloc isn't unrealistic

Lol 

[Elder_Haman]

8 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

this is not the problem that anyone intelligent has with the WoT TV adaptation.

I understand the concerns perfectly. I also understand that the people who have those concerns have a tendency to project them onto everything. You're jumping at shadows. And it makes it easy for people to pigeonhole people who have these concerns as some sort of bigot.

 

I don't think it's bigoted to not want a lazily written, preachy tv show that prioritizes lionizing certain political beliefs over telling a good story. 

 

What I object to is leaping to those conclusions based on the lazy logic and emotional responses to promotional materials.

[Beidomon]

6 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I understand the concerns perfectly. I also understand that the people who have those concerns have a tendency to project them onto everything. You're jumping at shadows. And it makes it easy for people to pigeonhole people who have these concerns as some sort of bigot.

 

I don't think it's bigoted to not want a lazily written, preachy tv show that prioritizes lionizing certain political beliefs over telling a good story. 

 

What I object to is leaping to those conclusions based on the lazy logic and emotional responses to promotional materials.

 

And all of that is fair (well, except for maybe the part about pigeonholing folks as bigots which I don't think is in any way justified by what I've read). Now go back and reread your opening post of this thread. Several of us are merely responding in this thread to how you mischaracterized our concerns. ?

Edited November 10, 2021 by Beidomon

[notpropaganda73]

12 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Imagine this: a 50 year old woman is cast to play Egwene. Would this be a problem? Would that make it difficult for you to imagine her as Egwene? I mean, not according to this forum. After all, acting is all that matters, right? If you have a problem with that, you're an ageist! Gasp! 

 

Anyone who has a problem with the casting is immediately framed as a racist or against diverse representation. For some people, the casting does not match what we've always imagined, and that breaks our sense of immersion and is going to be a barrier in the way of us engaging fully with the show. It would be the same if Moiraine was blonde or Rand had blue hair or if Perrin became a Wolfsibling because Wolfbrother was too gendered for 2021, or if the Ogier were 5 feet tall. 

 

I really find this silly. Of course a 50 year old Egwene would be a problem, because it fundamentally changes everything about her character. An older Egwene would be a wilder, and much more set in her ways than she even is in the books (which is stubborn enough, as are all the Emond Fielders). Casting a mixed race actress to play her does not fundamentally change anything about Egwene's story or character. 

 

I can understand changes and diverse casting like that messing with headcanon and I can understand being upset at changes from actual series canon, and finding it jarring. But I just don't understand the strength of the criticisms based off promo material and random quotes in press junkets. 

 

Pedro Pascal is so far away from what I imagine Joel to be in The Last of Us, and I really *really* did not imagine Ellie to be anything like Bella Ramsey - but I am excited about that adaptation all the same. 

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, Beidomon said:

And all of that is fair. Now go back and reread your opening post of this thread. Several of us are merely responding in this thread to how you mischaracterized our concerns. ?

I can admit that my definition was reductionist to some degree. I intended to call attention to the vast amount of diversity in the original source material and to note that inclusion (in and of itself) is not good evidence to support the concerns you have.

 

And I will also join you in saying that I will be very disappointed if this series turns out to be a vehicle for pushing a political agenda rather than a serious effort at adapting the story. I just don't think that will turn out to be the case.

[WalterKohl]

Why do people have a problem with the ethnic makeup of EF?  Its only been about a thousand years since the breaking, and less since the fall of Monetheron...  and that was a major world city that was probably fairly multi-ethnic... of course EF would still have mixes of races, evolution just doesn't work that fast...  

 

Edit: checked dates, so its been about 35000 since the breaking and a bit over 2300 since the fall of Manetheren...  still far to little time for evolution to make everyone the same...   

 

Edi again: 3500 not 35000...

Edited November 10, 2021 by WalterKohl

[swollymammoth]

2 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

fundamentally changes everything about her character.

No it doesn't. You can just suspend your disbelief and imagine that she's in her early 20's. Can't you? That's what the showrunners are already having me do when they want me to believe that Egwene (who is one of the few characters explicitly described as having white skin in the books) is an Indian girl. What about Elayne? How considerate of them to cast a red-head, but why even bother? Why not make her Korean and 7 feet tall? That doesn't change her character at all. 

 

Again, you're acting as if Egwene the character in this scenario would be 50. She wouldn't. The actress would be 50, but the show would ask us to believe that she's Egwene. The fact that this seems so outlandish to you is proving my point. 

 

How far can you distort Egwene until she's no longer Egwene? This is the point I'm raising. If we can change her skin, why can't we change her height or age? Why can't we change everything about her and then blame the fans when they say, "That's not Egwene!" 

[Elder_Haman]

Because skin color is not meaningful whereas the other characteristics are. Period.

[swollymammoth]

5 minutes ago, WalterKohl said:

Why do people have a problem with the ethnic makeup of EF?  Its only been about a thousand years since the breaking, and less since the fall of Monetheron...  and that was a major world city that was probably fairly multi-ethnic...

It's been 3000 years since the breaking and 1000 years since Manetheran. That is plenty of time for racial homogenization to occur in a tiny, isolated population like Emond's Field. It only took 6 generations for people to turn blue in the Appalachia mountains, and 1000 years is a lot more than that.  

[notpropaganda73]

1 minute ago, swollymammoth said:

No it doesn't. You can just suspend your disbelief and imagine that she's in her early 20's. Can't you? That's what the showrunners are already having me do when they want me to believe that Egwene (who is one of the few characters explicitly described as having white skin in the books) is an Indian girl. What about Elayne? How considerate of them to cast a red-head, but why even bother? Why not make her Korean and 7 feet tall? That doesn't change her character at all. 

 

Again, you're acting as if Egwene the character in this scenario would be 50. She wouldn't. The actress would be 50, but the show would ask us to believe that she's Egwene. The fact that this seems so outlandish to you is proving my point. 

 

How far can you distort Egwene until she's no longer Egwene? This is the point I'm raising. If we can change her skin, why can't we change her height or age? Why can't we change everything about her and then blame the fans when they say, "That's not Egwene!" 

 

It seems to me to be a contradiction to say "why can't we change her height and age", while simultaneously saying it would only be the actress that is older, not the character. 

 

Casting a 50 year old woman to play a 19 year old (or whatever age they've made the EFers in the show) would just be a weird creative choice that I would absolutely take issue with. The other scenario is casting a 50 year old woman because they're making Egwene 50, which does fundamentally change everything about her. 

 

Casting a mixed race actress to play a character described as white in the books does not change anything about her, because her skin colour does not play a role in her character. Something RJ was very skilled at was not making skin colour part of the cultural and societal differences in WoT, at least to my memory. Leane is described as coppery-skinned if I remember rightly, but it wouldn't change anything about her if they cast had a white woman to play her, because her "coppery-skin" did not have any role to play in her character. 

 

 

[WalterKohl]

1 minute ago, swollymammoth said:

It's been 3000 years since the breaking and 1000 years since Manetheran. That is plenty of time for racial homogenization to occur in a tiny, isolated population like Emond's Field. It only took 6 generations for people to turn blue in the Appalachia mountains, and 1000 years is a lot more than that.  

I edited to change my dates, and EF is one town in the two rivers that has many, and it is not cut off from the out side world, people leave and come, like Tam going off to war...  and they are not known for incest in EF unlike Appalachia...  not a completely isolated town, not enough time for homogenization.

[swollymammoth]

6 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Because skin color is not meaningful whereas the other characteristics are. Period.

There is no logic to this at all. Do physical characteristics matter or don't they? There is no logical reason why skin color should be any different than height, age, hair color etc. 

[Deadsy]

10 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

There is no logic to this at all. Do physical characteristics matter or don't they? There is no logical reason why skin color should be any different than height, age, hair color etc. 

 

It's incredibly illogical to lump age in with skin color. If it was our world it might make sense because it can change experiences growing up drastically, but this isn't our world. And I'm not sure why we're talking about pretending a 50 year old is 20. Another extremely illogical comment. Nobody who isn't an idiot is going to be pretending Egwene is a played by a white girl. It doesn't require any effort whatsoever for non-idiots to watch Egwene played by someone who isn't white. No pretending need be involved.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Deadsy

[SinisterDeath]

33 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

No it doesn't. You can just suspend your disbelief and imagine that she's in her early 20's. Can't you? That's what the showrunners are already having me do when they want me to believe that Egwene (who is one of the few characters explicitly described as having white skin in the books) is an Indian girl.

There's so much incredibly wrong with what you just typed, I don't even know where to begin.

 

Go re-read the chapters again, and actually pay attention.

Actually go research the actor. Your prejudices are showing.

[swollymammoth]

19 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

It seems to me to be a contradiction to say "why can't we change her height and age", while simultaneously saying it would only be the actress that is older, not the character. 

I'll admit the analogy was a little rushed. For example, Indian Egwene isn't playing a white girl. It's not like the other characters on screen are just going to pretend that she's white even though she's not. 

 

However, it's still an unnecessary barrier. People saw the casting reveals and had exactly 2 reactions for Egwene. "Oh, cool, they cast a not-white person as Egwene" and "What the heck? That isn't Egwene." I doubt that more than 5% of people saw TV Egwene and said, "Wow, that's exactly how I always pictured her." 

 

For some book fans, (especially ones who like patting themselves on the back) Egwene's casting isn't gonna be a barrier to engagement. For plenty of others, it will be. They're still asking us to look at someone who is recognizably not Egwene and accept her as Egwene. "This is what she always looked like," "You're racist if you have a problem with this." It's gaslighting (65% joking). 

 

And for what? 

 

If they'd just cast someone who more closely matched the book description, the showrunners could have made everyone happy. Instead, they looked at people like me and effectively said, "This show isn't for you," and then just did their own thing while flipping us the bird. 

[Deadsy]

1 minute ago, swollymammoth said:

I'll admit the analogy was a little rushed. For example, Indian Egwene isn't playing a white girl. It's not like the other characters on screen are just going to pretend that she's white even though she's not. 

 

However, it's still an unnecessary barrier. People saw the casting reveals and had exactly 2 reactions for Egwene. "Oh, cool, they cast a not-white person as Egwene" and "What the heck? That isn't Egwene." I doubt that more than 5% of people saw TV Egwene and said, "Wow, that's exactly how I always pictured her." 

 

For some book fans, (especially ones who like patting themselves on the back) Egwene's casting isn't gonna be a barrier to engagement. For plenty of others, it will be. They're still asking us to look at someone who is recognizably not Egwene and accept her as Egwene. "This is what she always looked like," "You're racist if you have a problem with this." It's gaslighting (65% joking). 

 

And for what? 

 

If they'd just cast someone who more closely matched the book description, the showrunners could have made everyone happy. Instead, they looked at people like me and effectively said, "This show isn't for you," and then just did their own thing while flipping us the bird. 

 

 

For what? I dunno, probably because she was the best actor who auditioned. This isn't complicated. If it's a barrier for you, you're the one who is the problem. And by the way she is not Indian. Also, please find the passage(s) where Egwene is described as white. Can you please at least know what about the topic you're posting on before you post on it?

[Elder_Haman]

The age of a character is typically important.

The other characteristics you mention typically aren't. 

Egwene's skin color plays no role in the character's plot arc whatsoever.

[notpropaganda73]

3 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

I'll admit the analogy was a little rushed. For example, Indian Egwene isn't playing a white girl. It's not like the other characters on screen are just going to pretend that she's white even though she's not. 

 

However, it's still an unnecessary barrier. People saw the casting reveals and had exactly 2 reactions for Egwene. "Oh, cool, they cast a not-white person as Egwene" and "What the heck? That isn't Egwene." I doubt that more than 5% of people saw TV Egwene and said, "Wow, that's exactly how I always pictured her." 

 

For some book fans, (especially ones who like patting themselves on the back) Egwene's casting isn't gonna be a barrier to engagement. For plenty of others, it will be. They're still asking us to look at someone who is recognizably not Egwene and accept her as Egwene. "This is what she always looked like," "You're racist if you have a problem with this." It's gaslighting (65% joking). 

 

And for what? 

 

If they'd just cast someone who more closely matched the book description, the showrunners could have made everyone happy. Instead, they looked at people like me and effectively said, "This show isn't for you," and then just did their own thing while flipping us the bird. 

 

The fact you feel that says a lot more about you than it does about the casting, I'll be honest. And I am not calling you racist, I just think it's sad that you see casting like this as some sort of "f you" to yourself rather than just a choice that's been made that doesn't impact the story or character in any way whatsoever. 

 

Please stop calling her "Indian Egwene". 

[Elder_Haman]

7 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

They're still asking us to look at someone who is recognizably not Egwene and accept her as Egwene.

How is she "recognizably not" Egwene? Egwene has never existed. It's not like they cast a dark skinned black man as FDR or a white girl to play Rosa Parks. 

 

Egwene only exists in the heads of fans who probably have as many different pictures of her as there are readers.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Elder_Haman

[TheMountain]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

The age of a character is typically important.

The other characteristics you mention typically aren't. 

Egwene's skin color plays no role in the character's plot arc whatsoever.

Min's age in the show is definitely an interesting choice then..

[DaddyFinn]

Characters whose skin/hair/eye color and height is important to the plot:

 

-Rand

-Maybe someone else, don't remember