On "Wokeness" and the Wheel of Time - Be Thoughtful in Responding

[Maximillion]

27 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

 

I'm sorry, but this is silly. It isn't "woke" to want a female hero, especially when you've grown up having very few of those.

That said, I really doubt many at all will care. By the end of season 1 it will be obvious that all of the EF (except maybe Mat) have a very important role to play in the story.

 

Female heroines are everywhere in life and on screen.

I would say it is absolutely 'woke' to want the DR in WoT to be female.

But be careful to understand what I am talking about when I use the term - it's described above.

 

Edited November 11, 2021 by Maximillion

[MasterAblar]

18 minutes ago, BeTheBud said:

 

 I'd just like to hop in and say how much I appreciate the fact that I can find a thoughtful, ongoing discussion about this. I mostly used Reddit before discovering these forums, but this thread might singlehandedly move me away from that platform.

 

I personally am OK with some changes being made, so long as they are executed well. I do think there some things that cross the line such as making Rand no longer the Dragon Reborn. This is because, for a first adaptation, I generally prefer it to be relatively faithful to the source material. If this were the 2nd Wheel of Time we were getting, then I say go crazy, mix things up. However, I simply don't think they will do something this drastic.

 

The thing that has me a bit worried a bit more is what a few have mentioned in this thread, that of poor execution on the whole male vs female thing. I think the showrunner has at least the understanding of the source material to not make this, a women (Aes Sedei) good, men bad story. The fears expressed by some people with regard to the way Moiraine discusses how the Breaking occured (i.e. how it was solely the fault of men), fail to take in that this is coming from an Aes Sedei who has inherited a culture that for thousands of years has feared men who can channel.

 

Still, I do worry that a lot of the subtlety will be lost in translation. This is the case with most books that transfer to flashy movies or TV shows, and you have to accept it to a degree, but I do think some shows and films have managed to maintain some of the finer points of their source material.

 

I think a good example would be the Nynaeve sneaking up on Lan scene mentioned earlier in this thread. I really don't mind it because it's a good way to show that she isn't to be trifled with, and show why Lan is attracted to her. However, I will miss the point where Nynaeve is caught out by Moiraine in the books (showing that Nynaeve is flawed too). This particular omission isn't a big deal, but if all of the subtle bits like this are lost, I will lament that greatly. Death by a thousand cuts as it were.

 

What would really become an issue is if after this scene we start repeatedly seeing Nynaeve make a fool of Lan or something like that. That would be the kind of ham-fisted storytelling that could actually ruin the show, and drive people even reasonable people to see this as some kind of woke project. I have yet to see evidence of something like this though, so we'll just have to wait and see.

 

Personally, I don't buy into the whole woke/anti-woke dichotomy. The most fervent followers of either side often turn out to be our turning's version of Masema or Jaichim Carridin. I know at some point that the proselytizing, from either side, can become too much for people, and I will admit that the on-the-nose thing can be a bit much even for me. However, as said by many others, it will only ruin the show if it does this at the cost of everything else. Otherwise, it will merely be mildly annoying to me.

 

I hope you all have a very nice day. I just needed to get that out of my system before watching the show. Sorry if I messed up a rule or something since this is my first post. ?

 

I think that was very well put. ?

 

For my part even though I am frankly quite against some of the thing I've heard from Rafe, I will do my best to enjoy the show and at worst pretend the changes they've made simply are not there (such as the soul thing) as they will hopefully be quite minor and mainly window dressing.

Edited November 11, 2021 by MasterAblar

[TheDreadReader]

45 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

Now that Rafe has confirmed that the DR is Rand, I wonder how that is going to play with the woke crowd who will want it to be Egwene?  Will they be disappointed?  Will they be upset that they were misled?

 

 

 

I think that there is a relative disparity in how emotionally invested in the outcome the two extreme sides of this debate are.  Some on the fringes will be disappointed but I suspect they'll just shrug and keep on with the plans for watching and enjoying the show.   It was more of a hope of theirs and less of "that's it I"m taking my ball and going home" thing.

 

And, that underscores a part of the problem I think most of us in the middle have with the whole "is it woke" conversation.

 

[TheMountain]

5 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

The outrage over a pink haired starship captain that ended with one of the coolest scenes in the new trilogy (which also caused a lot of... "why isn't this a more common tactic?!")

 

That scene is actually one of the worst in the entire movie, and was clearly added just for the "Rule of Cool" factor. Fans still argue to this day about how massively lore-breaking that "ramming maneuver" was, and many articles came out at the time discussing the massive plot holes created by that scene. Rian Johnson also showed in an interview that he hadn't really thought it through and kind of waved his hands about the whole ordeal.

Edited November 11, 2021 by TheMountain

[TheMountain]

At the end of the day... this is probably the thing Brandon was thinking about when he said a certain change would divide the fandom. He was right.

 

I hope it was worth it.

[Rose]

1 hour ago, Maximillion said:

Now that Rafe has confirmed that the DR is Rand, I wonder how that is going to play with the woke crowd who will want it to be Egwene?  Will they be disappointed?  Will they be upset that they were misled?

 

 

 

Nevermind I misread your post!

 

I think it depends to what extent they try to mislead people into thinking it's Egwene. A lot of non-book readers have already guessed it's Rand just from the promo materials because they're genre savvy and they picked up on the hints and tropes.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Rose

[Deadsy]

54 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 

Female heroines are everywhere in life and on screen.

I would say it is absolutely 'woke' to want the DR in WoT to be female.

But be careful to understand what I am talking about when I use the term - it's described above.

 

 

 

How is it woke? It seemed clear you were talking about non-readers. It would absolutely not be woke of any non-reader to want Egwene to be the DR. They only know about the story they are getting in the TV show. If you weren't talking about non-readers then I don't know who you are talking about. What WoT reader wants Egwene to be the DR? They have to be in a tiny minority so why care?

Edited November 11, 2021 by Deadsy

[DaddyFinn]

2 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

What WoT reader wants Egwene to be the DR?

There are some but not many

[TheDreadReader]

25 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

At the end of the day... this is probably the thing Brandon was thinking about when he said a certain change would divide the fandom. He was right.

 

I hope it was worth it.

 

I doubt that anything related to the DR was what Brandon was worried about.   Much of that conversation seems generated by dynamics within the fan community and from people reacting to the released content than from anything in the content itself.

 

 

[Deadsy]

I think people are overreacting to Brandon's concerns and just using it to fuel the fire they want to create. He has been overwhelmingly positive about the show. As has Harriet.

[Maximillion]

1 minute ago, Deadsy said:

I think people are overreacting to Brandon's concerns and just using it to fuel the fire they want to create. He has been overwhelmingly positive about the show. As has Harriet.

 

Nobody wanted to create a fire.

The fire was created by the trailers and many comments - far more than just what BS said.

 

[Deadsy]

4 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 

Nobody wanted to create a fire.

The fire was created by the trailers and many comments - far more than just what BS said.

 

 

 

I'm saying people are using Brandon's comments as fuel, imagining he is on their side. Even though he's had great things to say about the TV show in general and they're blowing one comment out of proportion.

[MasterAblar]

7 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

I think people are overreacting to Brandon's concerns and just using it to fuel the fire they want to create. He has been overwhelmingly positive about the show. As has Harriet.

 

On one hand yes I agree. On the other hand its not like they're gonna be telling people the show is a disaster even if it is. Which to be clearly I highly doubt it is.

[Maximillion]

13 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

 

 

I'm saying people are using Brandon's comments as fuel, imagining he is on their side. Even though he's had great things to say about the TV show in general and they're blowing one comment out of proportion.

 

Sure, and I am saying that no one would be really talking about his comments if not for all the rest of the information that has come out through trailers and comments.

 

It's not really about blowing his comments out of proportion at all.

[Elder_Haman]

37 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

Nobody wanted to create a fire.

Stop it. Since the very beginning there have been a dedicated cadre who have desired nothing more than to stir people up over every single thing that was released. 
 

It’s to be expected. But don’t pretend that the uproar is Amazon/Rafe’s fault. 

[Tim]

Yeah the two sides of the debate here are not equal in practice. You basically have one group saying “I’m already pretty positive this show will be an awful woke fest” and another group saying “there does not appear to be sufficient evidence to support that conclusion, let’s just wait and see and keep an open mind in the meantime”.

 

I haven’t seen a single post from someone saying something along the lines of “actually Egwene should be the DR and you are sexist if you suggest otherwise.”

 

I have seen some posts which suggest that certain other shrill and badly written posts (e.g. the complaints upthread that Egwene is now “Indian”) could be perceived as racist, sexist or homophobic.

 

But that is not the same thing. And anyone who thinks that it’s unfair or inappropriate to call out posts like that should perhaps engage in a bit of soul-searching. 

Edited November 11, 2021 by Tim
Remove typo

[ForsakenPotato]

This is also my first time posting (have been lurking for a while since I heard about the show) and want to echo others who have appreciated the thoughtful discussion most people are having.

 

I'm really interested to see how the show is updated in terms of "wokeness" (although I am somewhat fearful of that term given how politically charged it is). I'm actually a new book reader as well, by chance I started reading them about a year ago before I knew anything about the show and was immediately hooked. I really wanted to finish the series before the premiere but I'm only on Winter's Heart so that's unlikely. I think part of why I'm both excited and also nervous about any potential changes is that I keep handing the series to my friends and saying "You have to read these books! They are so fun! But heads up, there's some kinda weird gender stuff that feels a bit dated at times." I think this illustrates the challenges of adapting a work like this. I don't want to disrespect the wishes of the fans who read these books growing up and really don't want to see *any* changes, because I certainly have other books or series that I would feel that way about and it's really hard to see something you love changed. At the same time, for me I totally fell in love with this series despite some reservations about how gender is handled, so I can't help but feel optimistic that some of the changes could be good (in my personal view of course, there is no objective 'good').

 

However, there is some nuance in how any change is handled that makes a really big difference regarding if it's effective and if fans are receptive. Sure, some people will be angry at any change, and some people will be angry if the DR isn't a women, but I think most people (at least based on these forums) are somewhere in the middle: changes will be made but how well they are executed is what matters most. To me, things like having a diverse cast or adding more LGBT characters than are present in the books are great options that can make the WoT universe more inclusive to more people without, I hope, alienating many people. I am also ok with the potential changes in how gender is handled via rebirth in different ages, although I agree with others that it's risky because they really need to have thought out all the consequences in terms of plot and ensure adjustments are made that will make sense. Other changes that I would actively love in the show would be: a little less focus on cleavage when it's not relevant (the number of times we have to read about low dress necklines is frankly bonkers), and maybe a little more character development in the romantic plotlines (I find it hard to see why a lot of the important couples like each other beyond finding each other hot, although there are some notable exceptions).

 

All that said, while I am clearly not against changes that might make the show, in some people's words, "more woke", I also don't want to see something where every woman of color is perfect and every white man is evil, or whatever extreme political statement people might be afraid of. If I wanted political caricatures I can watch my local news. The reason I am loving the books is that characters are so human -- all of them are flawed, all of them have some biases, all of them are fun while also usually taking themselves a little too seriously. They all do dumb things sometimes, annoy each other to death, and also show up for each other and form unlikely alliances and really excellent friendships. To me that is the heart of the books and what I hope is not changed for any political agenda (even one I might broadly agree with).

[Siberian Rat]

Seen a lot of talk of "wokeness" about this upcoming TV show, which I firmly believe is completely overblown fearmongring by reactionaries, possibly spurred on by the usual type of right-wing internet grifters. (Think of the annual "War on Christmas".)
It probably doesn't help that the marketing fr ths show has emphasized the "wokeness" or whatever, which IMHO is just marketing for what otherwise is going to be a pretty normal fantasy TV series. Remember the hullabaloo about how Mad Max: Fury Road was going to be "Feminist" because of some consultant they hired on for production? Well, it turned out to be a pretty good Film in any case. Unfortunately I don't have that much hope for the WOT series, but that has more to do with the "non-woke" divergences from the source material, and various production designs. (Czechoslovak movies from the 50s have better production values. Look up the Hussite Trilogy.)

Frankly, I don't think there will even be a third season, one of the main cast quitting after season 1 (apparently because he objected to filming gay sex scenes) does not bode well for the rest of the show. Not to mention that Amazon will go all in on LOTR if the first season tests well.

TL;DR: The show won't be all that "woke", and the whole thing is just a Marketing strategy, using Manufactured Outrage to create a buzz.

 

On 11/10/2021 at 3:03 PM, notpropaganda73 said:

the writers, Rafe, whoever, are in a room together maniacally laughing as they tear up the books and just have a whiteboard with phrases like "Men are Trash!" "White privelege in WoT!" "Let's make everything woke!".

Incidentally, this is what a lot of /pol/tards really believe.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Siberian Rat

[DaddyFinn]

15 minutes ago, Siberian Rat said:

apparently because he objected to filming gay sex scenes

Source for this?

 

 

[Gothic Flame]

2 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Source for this?

 

 

Yeah..if true then...Rafe really did shredded the books.

 

[Ralph]

4 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Source for this?

 

 

Rated 15?

[Skipp]

18 minutes ago, Siberian Rat said:

(apparently because he objected to filming gay sex scenes)

Yeah, source on this?  Because as far as I have heard there have been zero indications as to why he left and Rafe has continued to said Barney was excellent in the show.  If they had left on poor terms I imagine he wouldn't mention without being prompted.

[Tim]

It seems highly unlikely that any strong objection to gay sex scenes wouldn't have been smoked out at the initial casting stage even if the showrunners were only keeping that open as a possibility for the character.

 

Conversely, if it was an idea that occurred to them only after they were well into making season 1, then I strongly doubt they would have replaced the actor for refusing to go along with it at that point.

 

But I guess we'll wait and see.

[DaddyFinn]

I'd guess that those kind of scenes are discussed at the very start before the role is even decided..

[DaddyFinn]

27 minutes ago, Siberian Rat said:

(Czechoslovak movies from the 50s have better production values. Look up the Hussite Trilogy.)

You mean this? Not sure how you can compare these before we have seen the show..

 

https://youtu.be/DjDyDZPVJtA