IGN Explainer - the Dark One

[DojoToad]

18 minutes ago, Rose said:

Basically, it's about free will more than about needing to make everything equal. Again, my interpretation of the ending of the series and not necessarily my views about how our world actually works.

 

(For starters, I don't believe there's such a thing as the Dark One in our world so the whole idea is moot)

 

So Creator and Dark One aside, it's all about free will?  No good or evil?  No balance?

 

Sorry - just trying to understand where you are coming from.  Thanks.

[Rose]

7 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

So Creator and Dark One aside, it's all about free will?  No good or evil?  No balance?

 

Sorry - just trying to understand where you are coming from.  Thanks.

What do you mean by "it's all"? What "it" are you referring to? Are we still talking about the cosmology of WoT?

[DojoToad]

2 minutes ago, Rose said:

What do you mean by "it's all"? What "it" are you referring to? Are we still talking about the cosmology of WoT?

Yes, guess I was referring to Wot with my references to the Creator and Dark One.  But go in either direction you want.  I'm trying to understand where you are coming from and if your real world beliefs bleed over into WoT.

[Rose]

28 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Yes, guess I was referring to Wot with my references to the Creator and Dark One.  But go in either direction you want.  I'm trying to understand where you are coming from and if your real world beliefs bleed over into WoT.

 

Well I already explained what I think RJ intended with the ending and the reason Rand didn't kill the Dark One.

 

As for my personal real world beliefs, I'm not sure they're relevant here, but if you must know, I don't believe in evil as an entity of its own, just like darkness isn't its own physical entity. Light is a physical entity, made up of waves/and or particles (quantum physics are weird), but darkness isn't made up of anything. It's just the absence of light. Similarly, evil happens when we fail to rise above our baser instincts and choose to be selfless, kind, brave, etc. So there is no Dark One in my worldview, just the struggle to bring more good into a world that would be very dark without it.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Rose

[Elder_Haman]

28 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

So Creator and Dark One aside, it's all about free will?  No good or evil?  No balance?

I mean, sort of. That's the whole basis for the world in which all evil is gone but there is an utter lack of free will. But it's also sort of about good and evil. That's the whole basis for the world in which children are killed for petty thievery. And where the Aes Sedai are all Black Ajah.

 

There is a lesson in the ending about finding a balance. The balance isn't between good and evil per se. It's between freedom and control. Some control must be exercised in order to organize society - to prevent bad things from happening. But you cannot prevent all bad things from happening without exercising a degree of control that removes free will entirely. 

 

There are other lessons in the ending as well. It's like an onion. But it's a fantastic representation of eastern philosophy that the world is full of dichotomies. Each thing has it's opposite and the tension between opposites is part of our fundamental reality.

[DojoToad]

So in a world without good and evil:

 

A man gets up before dawn, works his butt off to collect the berries that were just ripened around the village to feed his large family.  Still way more than the family needs, but he is just working hard and doing what's right to him.

 

Every other family in the village gets no berries for their families because they weren't out early enough.  The man did nothing wrong - just has a strong work ethic.  But the other families didn't do anything wrong either and they all go without.  In a world without right and wrong can the other village families even be mad?

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, DojoToad said:

So in a world without good and evil:

 

A man gets up before dawn, works his butt off to collect the berries that were just ripened around the village to feed his large family.  Still way more than the family needs, but he is just working hard and doing what's right to him.

 

Every other family in the village gets no berries for their families because they weren't out early enough.  The man did nothing wrong - just has a strong work ethic.  But the other families didn't do anything wrong either and they all go without.  In a world without right and wrong can the other village families even be mad?

First, no one is talking about a world without good and evil. Second, I need more context to know whether the other families could or should be mad. Your hypothetical is too simplistic. 

 

 

[Rose]

I'm also confused. Who said there's no good or evil? 

[DojoToad]

22 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

First, no one is talking about a world without good and evil. Second, I need more context to know whether the other families could or should be mad. Your hypothetical is too simplistic. 

 

 

Guess I'm taking it to an extreme to be simple.  If it doesn't work in a simple example, is it even valid?

[DojoToad]

7 minutes ago, Rose said:

I'm also confused. Who said there's no good or evil? 

Maybe I'm going off the rails here.  @Rose If light is an entity and good brings more light, where is the balance.  I could live a very comfortable life doing my 9-5 and not caring about anyone or anything else in the world: just eating pizza, reading books, jogging, playing video games, minding my own business, not getting involved.  Am I evil for not bringing more light into the world?  Am I balanced because though I'm not doing good, I'm also not hurting anyone?

[SinisterDeath]

Forget good and evil.

 

The Dark One is Chaos, Entropy, and Death.

The Creator is Order, Creation, and Life.

 

Neither are good or evil.

One could argue that the "Creators" neutrality in all things is Evil. One could also argue that the Darkone's existence being preserved allowing freewill is ultimately good.

 

Look at the 4 seasons.

Fall is the time of harvest, before the crops die off. Vegetation rots, animals die. The weak are culled in the forthcoming winter.

Spring is the time of rebirth. New animals are born, plants grow, and they flourish in the Summer. 

There is a balance to be had where more months of spring/summer are better for humanity, then it is for more months of fall & winter.

 

Fall & Winter aren't evil, it just is. Death & Entropy allow the building blocks for new growth.

[Ralph]

I don't see it as a requirement for Evil, only that there must be the capacity to do Evil

[DojoToad]

21 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Forget good and evil.

 

The Dark One is Chaos, Entropy, and Death.

The Creator is Order, Creation, and Life.

 

Neither are good or evil.

One could argue that the "Creators" neutrality in all things is Evil. One could also argue that the Darkone's existence being preserved allowing freewill is ultimately good.

 

Look at the 4 seasons.

Fall is the time of harvest, before the crops die off. Vegetation rots, animals die. The weak are culled in the forthcoming winter.

Spring is the time of rebirth. New animals are born, plants grow, and they flourish in the Summer. 

There is a balance to be had where more months of spring/summer are better for humanity, then it is for more months of fall & winter.

 

Fall & Winter aren't evil, it just is. Death & Entropy allow the building blocks for new growth.

So being an agent of Chaos and death is just as valid as order and life?  No judgement, just do your thing...

[SinisterDeath]

15 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

So being an agent of Chaos and death is just as valid as order and life?  No judgement, just do your thing...

For metaphysical entities like the Creator & Dark One, you can't apply morality to what they are.

People however, a capable of committing acts of Good or Evil.

 

The end of the series highlighted the problem with a world without chaos. Pure order allows morally evil atrocities to be perpetuated without remorse.

E.g. It is morally evil for a Town Guard to cut the hand off of a child who stole food out of desperation to feed their family.

 

A universe without chaos, and has only known pure order, poverty might not exist.
They may have solved poverty, by simply killing anyone incapable of providing for themselves. They may not have disease, or disability. Because they balefired anyone who ever so much as coughed.

[Rose]

2 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Maybe I'm going off the rails here.  @Rose If light is an entity and good brings more light, where is the balance.  I could live a very comfortable life doing my 9-5 and not caring about anyone or anything else in the world: just eating pizza, reading books, jogging, playing video games, minding my own business, not getting involved.  Am I evil for not bringing more light into the world?  Am I balanced because though I'm not doing good, I'm also not hurting anyone?

 

You're conflating two things that aren't related: the WoT cosmology and my personal worldview. You asked about both, so I told you about both, but that doesn't mean they're compatible.

 

One of the important themes in WoT is balance. Rand didn't kill the Dark One because it would make the world unbalanced and rob humanity of free will.

 

Separately, I talked about my personal worldview (because you asked), which posits that evil isn't an active force. So there is no such thing as an entity that represents all evil, and the question of whether or not we need it for "balance" becomes moot.

 

But that's not relevant to understanding the WoT cosmology. I'm able to separate my personal beliefs from the workings of a fictional world and hold both paradigms in my mind at the same time, even though they don't really mesh.

 

Your question about where's the balance in my worldview doesn't make sense to me because you're trying to apply WoT (fictional) cosmology to the real world.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Rose

[Youss99]

TL;DR.  The posting by others about the good and evil in WoT just got me thinking.  Everything below is just some conjecture about the Pattern and what the effect / reason for good and evil are for it.

 

 

This is discussion is a little fascinating  What if the Great Pattern of the Ages in the WoT wasn't the first one the Creator made.  Maybe he tried a world where "good" was the only motivating force?  Maybe the Creator needed to make the Dark One to bring balance, allowing for the pendulum to swing back and forth.  This swinging of the pendulum between "good" and "evil" allows for the turning of the Wheel and the growth of all the various kinds of life into some, as of yet, undetermined future planned by the Creator for them all.  

 

Sort of like a calm peaceful lake where the water never moves, nothing mars its surface.  It stands still and idle.  But then a great raging force churns that water and it explodes, cascading down mountains, destroying as it goes.  But that destruction leads to amazing changes and new life that would never have happened without the great force disturbing it.  So the Dark One acts as the instigator force that allows the Wheel to keep going. 

 

The Creator maybe learned (or knew and this is the first Pattern of Ages it created) that his will alone was not enough to give life the churning it needed to reach the next stage (final stage?) of its existence and thus was  the Dark One created and bound inside/around/as a part of the Pattern.

 

So maybe the Creator knew that without good and evil (adversarial forces), the wheel would eventually stop turning.  Maybe Rand realized THAT in that moment.  The Dark One wins when the pendulum stops swinging, bringing about a true end to the Pattern of Ages, freeing the Dark One forever.  Maybe the Dark One couldn't escape the Pattern, even if his prison was broken.  But once free, he could bring about the Pattern's end by removing his influence or blocking entirely the influence of the Creator.  Maybe the Dark One would himself be destroyed should the Pattern end, but maybe the void was more attractive than eternity bound to it as it's unwilling slave.

 

The Dragon too is both Good and Evil being a ta'veren intended to help destroy and save, in consecutive ages, the Wheel.  When the prison is remade, it creates the wellspring of chaos that helps the Wheel spin for another turn and sets up the next Pattern of Ages.  Maybe the final Age is a world where people learn to face the choice of doing "good or evil" every day, and opting for ""good" (good being some theoretical form of right over wrong)?  Maybe the Pattern will keep spinning until that happens or the Dark One does finally win...

 

It would only have been more interesting if (and only in my opinion) the Dark One had allowed Rand access to the True Power directly giving the Dragon the true choice of whether to save or destroy the world.  The Trollocs weren't there to kill the Dragon in the Two Rivers, but to protect him from the Aes Sedai sent to kill him....

 

[DojoToad]

10 hours ago, Rose said:

 

You're conflating two things that aren't related: the WoT cosmology and my personal worldview. You asked about both, so I told you about both, but that doesn't mean they're compatible.

 

One of the important themes in WoT is balance. Rand didn't kill the Dark One because it would make the world unbalanced and rob humanity of free will.

 

Separately, I talked about my personal worldview (because you asked), which posits that evil isn't an active force. So there is no such thing as an entity that represents all evil, and the question of whether or not we need it for "balance" becomes moot.

 

But that's not relevant to understanding the WoT cosmology. I'm able to separate my personal beliefs from the workings of a fictional world and hold both paradigms in my mind at the same time, even though they don't really mesh.

 

Your question about where's the balance in my worldview doesn't make sense to me because you're trying to apply WoT (fictional) cosmology to the real world.

Sorry, but think I'm getting closer.  Take out the balance question from my last comment that you quoted.  If I'm reading your personal worldview correctly, there is still good and evil.  There is no evil entity (devil, satan, shaitan) and there is really no good entity - just particles and waves (physics), a manifestation of light.  Correct?

 

14 hours ago, Rose said:

As for my personal real world beliefs, I'm not sure they're relevant here, but if you must know, I don't believe in evil as an entity of its own, just like darkness isn't its own physical entity. Light is a physical entity, made up of waves/and or particles (quantum physics are weird), but darkness isn't made up of anything. It's just the absence of light. Similarly, evil happens when we fail to rise above our baser instincts and choose to be selfless, kind, brave, etc. So there is no Dark One in my worldview, just the struggle to bring more good into a world that would be very dark without it.

You like the light and believe doing 'good' brings light into an otherwise dark/evil world?  We're servants of a non-sentient entity?  Evil is the default unless we choose to do good.

[DojoToad]

12 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

For metaphysical entities like the Creator & Dark One, you can't apply morality to what they are.

People however, a capable of committing acts of Good or Evil.

 

The end of the series highlighted the problem with a world without chaos. Pure order allows morally evil atrocities to be perpetuated without remorse.

E.g. It is morally evil for a Town Guard to cut the hand off of a child who stole food out of desperation to feed their family.

 

A universe without chaos, and has only known pure order, poverty might not exist.
They may have solved poverty, by simply killing anyone incapable of providing for themselves. They may not have disease, or disability. Because they balefired anyone who ever so much as coughed.

Bolded one of your thoughts - so Mellar being on team chaos felt guilt for what he did in life?  He did many morally evil things that we 'saw' and it is hinted that he did much more off page.  I have a hard time believing he felt guilt - he was just trying to live his best life: avoiding discipline and death with those more powerful than him (though he railed at his lack of status) and taking enjoyment out of whatever he could get away with...

[Agitel]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

There is no evil entity (devil, satan, shaitan) and there is really no good entity - just particles and waves (physics), a manifestation of light.  Correct?

 

I don't want to speak for Rose, as I don't know their background. But I'll chime in that even in a Christian conception (examples Augustine of Hippo and Thomas Aquinas), the Devil/Satan is not a pure evil entity or the source of all evil. The devil is a creature, good insofar as it is what it is (an angel). It is called evil based on what it chose to do with its agency, but it is not pure evil or "evil itself". (If you're interested in a real world philosophy and/or theology discussion, we can make a thread on the General board.).

 

And Rose said good an evil are analogous to light and darkness. You seem to be interpreting them as saying they literally are light and darkness.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Agitel

[SinisterDeath]

2 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Bolded one of your thoughts - so Mellar being on team chaos felt guilt for what he did in life?  He did many morally evil things that we 'saw' and it is hinted that he did much more off page.  I have a hard time believing he felt guilt - he was just trying to live his best life: avoiding discipline and death with those more powerful than him (though he railed at his lack of status) and taking enjoyment out of whatever he could get away with...

Reread what I typed.

 

Freewill, allows you to do subjectively good or evil acts. It allows you to be chaotic or lawful.

 

Freewill allows you to justify your actions.

 

Most people believe they're the good guy, and not doing evil because "lol evil is fun".

 

When you reread what I wrote, Rand "saw" a world without the DO, and the people were dead inside. They were like robots following orders. That is what I meant when they feel no guilt for mass murder.

 

In a world with both, people are capable of guilt. Guilt requires free will and sentience. That doesn't mean everyone is going to feel guilty for what they do.

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, Agitel said:

 

I don't want to speak for Rose, as I don't know their background. But I'll chime in that even in a Christian conception (examples Augustine of Hippo and Thomas Aquinas), the Devil/Satan is not a pure evil entity or the source of all evil. The devil is a creature, good insofar as it is what it is (an angel). It is called evil based on what it chose to do with its agency, but it is not pure evil or "evil itself". (If you're interested in a real world philosophy and/or theology discussion, we can make a thread on the General board.).

 

And Rose said good an evil are analogous to light and darkness. You seem to be interpreting them as saying they literally are light and darkness.

Sometimes I'm too literal for my own good (often actually).  But I think that can offer an interesting perspective at times...

 

Thanks all for indulging my amateur philosophy.

Edited November 9, 2021 by DojoToad

[Rose]

9 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Sorry, but think I'm getting closer.  Take out the balance question from my last comment that you quoted.  If I'm reading your personal worldview correctly, there is still good and evil.  There is no evil entity (devil, satan, shaitan) and there is really no good entity - just particles and waves (physics), a manifestation of light.  Correct?

 

You like the light and believe doing 'good' brings light into an otherwise dark/evil world?  We're servants of a non-sentient entity?  Evil is the default unless we choose to do good.

 

I don't think debating my personal beliefs is relevant in this forum. We're here to talk about the Wheel of Time.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Rose

[DojoToad]

5 minutes ago, Rose said:

 

I don't think debating my personal beliefs is relevant in this forum. We're here to talk about the Wheel of Time.

No problem, not twisting arms - just being curious.  I don't say anything here I'm not comfortable with why would you?

[JaimAybara]

 

 

Robert Jordan was just such a genius being able to weave something so authentic and still incorporate real world beliefs in meaningful ways. So most of the time when people say, “it’s a Christian reference!” I think, “yep.” And when they say it’s “it’s a Yin Yang duality!” I go, “yep.” And when they say “it’s a Quran reference!” And so on and so on. The answer is always the same. “Yep,”Haha. I like reading everyone’s individual interpretations though.

Hinduism/reincarnation 
Buddhism/Nirvana

the duality of things/Taoism/Confucianism (Yin Yang)

God/Satan (on our shoulders)- Christian 

God/Shaytan (whispering in our ears) Quran