New clip about the Aes Sedai

[Jackdaw_Fool]

Yep, I was about to copy the text from the glossary and the Fain quote. Thanks all. If anyone is looking to brush up on how the people in RJ's world view the rebirth of the dragon, what they think of men who can channel, Aes Sedai, and the breaking, etc. the first handful of pages from Chapter 3 The Peddler in EoTW really sum things up nicely. 

[Rose]

Chapter 3 of EotW shows pretty clearly that people in the world are extremely confused about the Dragon and the Breaking. Not everyone understands that the Dragon must be able to channel, not everyone understands that the Dragon broke the world out of madness (they think it's because he served the Dark One), not everyone understands that it was only the male Aes Sedai who broke the world. A lot of the lore that is clear to us as readers isn't so to most people in Randland who aren't particularly educated about these things.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Rose

[Maximillion]

39 minutes ago, Rose said:

Chapter 3 of EotW shows pretty clearly that people in the world are extremely confused about the Dragon and the Breaking. Not everyone understands that the Dragon must be able to channel, not everyone understands that the Dragon broke the world out of madness (they think it's because he served the Dark One), not everyone understands that it was only the male Aes Sedai who broke the world. A lot of the lore that is clear to us as readers isn't so to most people in Randland who aren't particularly educated about these things.

 

Stop with this.

The DR being a female. the Ads Sedai thinking the DR could be female and the people of the world RJ created thinking the DR could be female is a complete departure from the lore and the story that RJ wrote.

If that is ok for you that Is completely fine.  No one can say what is acceptable to you other than you, but please don't try and justify it as anything other than a huge departure from the story told.

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Maximillion

[Ralph]

3 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 

Stop with this.

The DR being a female is a complete departure from the lore and the story that RJ wrote.

If that is ok for you that Is completely fine.  No one can say what is acceptable to you, but please don't try and justify it as anything other than a huge departure from the story told.

 

Whether it is "huge" is also a matter of opinion. Yes it is "a complete departure," but how much difference it makes depends on how they play it. 

 

The discussion here had moved on to non-channelling Dragons in general, not relevant specifically to females, anyway. 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Ralph

[SinisterDeath]

1 minute ago, Maximillion said:

 

Stop with this.

The DR being a female is a complete departure from the lore and the story that RJ wrote.

If that is ok for you that Is completely fine.  No one can say what is acceptable to you, but please don't try and justify it as anything other than a huge departure from the story told.

Nothing @Rose said was false.
Why should people stop discussing what you find unacceptable? 

[Jackdaw_Fool]

1 hour ago, Ralph said:

Is there anything in the books that you would consider poor plotting to the same extent? 

A better question would be if there is anything RJ unnecessarily changed in the books that caused some poor plotting. Maybe Taimandred? But that's not a world building issue to me and wouldn't be "to the same extent." This change as of now seems entirely unnecessary to me. It's worse if it's not only entirely unnecessary but also demonstrates poor writing and plotting.  Regardless, I'm still hoping the show builds its world properly around this change if they are making it.

[Maximillion]

8 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Nothing @Rose said was false.
Why should people stop discussing what you find unacceptable? 

 

Anyone can make up some random thing and say that 'the books didn't say it wasn't the case'.  

Hey the people of the world didn't know that the DR was not a Trolloc who grew intelligence and decided to rebel against the DO.  See.  I am sure some luddite in the back water of RJs world would believe such a thing.  It doesn't make it in anyway a reasonable change to the lore or story.

 

So we can go on about what is 100% true or false as much as we like to try and justify ridiculous changes to RJs story - and a female Dragon being even a consideration in the main story plot is a ridiculous change - and let's not pretend we don't know the reason it was done.  It is not about intrigue or Aes Sedai misdirection.  We know what it is about.

 

When this was first suspected it was played down as impossible and now it has become a reality it is being justified with obscure possibility.

It is what it is - modern day politics and ideology being injected into a story in order to preach.

 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Maximillion

[MasterAblar]

The logical reason for people to know that the dragon reborn would be a man in the books is that, regardless of whether they know about souls and reincarnation:

 

- LTT was a man

- All the false dragons have been men, whether they could channel or not

- Men and LTT broke the world and its believed the dragon reborn will do similar (correct me if I'm wrong       on that)

 

So it would just be assumed that the Dragon Reborn would be a man. Furthermore certain educated people would have read the prophecies somewhat and knowledge that they refer to a man would have bled into the general population I assume.

 

Now on the other hand as others have pointed out above, the average nobody seems to have no actual understand regarding LTT's actual role in the War of Shadow, most everything involving the Aes Sedai and the breaking and channelling in general. You could perhaps succesfully extend that to not knowingthe dragon reborn would be a man in the show, but personally I find that to be a massive reach without significant other changes. 

Edited November 4, 2021 by MasterAblar

[Ralph]

6 minutes ago, Jackdaw_Fool said:

A better question would be if there is anything RJ unnecessarily changed in the books that caused some poor plotting. Maybe Taimandred? But that's not a world building issue to me and wouldn't be "to the same extent." This change as of now seems entirely unnecessary to me. It's worse if it's not only entirely unnecessary but also demonstrates poor writing and plotting.  Regardless, I'm still hoping the show builds its world properly around this change if they are making it.

 

A different question - it seems pretty clear that RJ changed some things later in the series from what he had planned originally. Details like how the Power works, tel'aran'rhiod, dreamshards and much more. Even Myrdraal travelling through shadows vanishes more or less besides Shaidar Haran. And many more? 

 

Would you (and all the others who are opposed to the changes we already see) believe that those things should be in the series even in Season 1, although it changes "the lore" as it was when EotW was written? 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Ralph

[SinisterDeath]

8 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

Anyone can make up some random thing and say that 'the books didn't say it wasn't the case'.  

Hey the people of the world didn't know that the DR was not a Trolloc who grew intelligence and decided to rebel against the DO.  See.  I am sure some luddite in the back water of RJs world would believe such a thing.  It doesn't make it anyway reasonable change to the lore or story.

 

55 minutes ago, Rose said:

EotW shows pretty clearly that people in the world are extremely confused about the Dragon and the Breaking.

Let's take this.

It's canonical that many people in the two rivers mistakenly believed all channelers caused the destruction that is the breaking. This further lead to a belief that Aes Sedai were not to be trusted.

It is also canonical that the Forsaken & Darkfriends (e.g. Fain) waged a misinformation war throughout the world to sow seeds of distrust of Aes Sedai, and all channelers.

Just as it's canonical that certain forsaken had Artur Hawkwing's ear, fueling Hawkwings mistrust of Aes Sedai to further divide the main continent. They also set up alternative 'prophecies' on other continents as a long-term goals to take down the dragon.

 

8 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

So we can go on about what is 100% true or false as much as we like to try and justify ridiculous changes to RJs story - and a female Dragon being even a consideration in the main story plot is a ridiculous change.

Yet, Rand will still be the Dragon. 

[Ralph]

1 minute ago, MasterAblar said:

The logical reason for people to know that the dragon reborn would be a man in the books is that, regardless of whether they know about souls and reincarnation:

 

- LTT was a man

- All the false dragons have been men, whether they could channel or not

- Men and LTT broke the world and its believed the dragon reborn will do similar (correct me if I'm wrong       on that)

 

So it would just be assumed that the Dragon Reborn would be a man. Furthermore certain educated people would have read the prophecies somewhat and knowledge that they refer to a man would have bled into the general population I assume.

 

Now on the other hand as others have pointed out above, the average nobody seems to have no actual understand regarding LTT's actual role in the War of Shadow, most everything involving the Aes Sedai and the breaking and channelling in general. You could perhaps succesfully extend that to not knowing anything the dragon reborn would be a man in the show, but personally I find that to be a massive reach without significant other changes. 

 

The first only if souls are gender restricted, which can be changed. The second they can easily change the history. The third yes, with the Taint being the basis for this, but still can be got around

[DragonFairy]

18 hours ago, Jackdaw_Fool said:

Ripple effects: So if the Aes Sedai do truly believe the dragon could be male or female, then presumably most everyone in the world thinks the same. So with this change, there should be plenty of false female dragons, right? Not even just women who can channel but just women seeking greater political power. Especially if there is this concept of people actually hoping  for a female dragon, like is being suggested here. Imagine the effects on the world's history. Further, imagine the effects on Aes Sedai history and politics (scheming Aes Sedai believing they might be the dragon)...

 

I'd prefer not to imagine any of that because I really liked the story as written. Guess I'll be hoping Rafe's "Spiral Snakey Thing of Time" inspired by (that's looking to be a better term than adapted from) Jordan's The Wheel of Time still turns out to be an enjoyable watch...

 

WOW!!! I never even thought of that. That would be absolutely awful!!

[king of nowhere]

3 hours ago, Rose said:

This is getting tiresome y'all. There's so much new and interesting stuff in this clip and the other promo materials they're dropping, and now Sarah's comments on Twitter which I hadn't seen, and I want to dig into them and analyze and speculate.

 

yes, please. I'm sure i'm missing a lot. Sarah's comment? where?

interesting stuff? the previous short clips we saw in the last days, two rivers and winespring inn, didn't look like they had anything new.

this one... besides the voiceover, and the angreal, was there anything else to notice? i didn't even realize the black figure was the angreal, so i'm sure i'm missing a lot of details

[Maximillion]

1 minute ago, Ralph said:

 

The first only if souls are gender restricted, which can be changed. The second they can easily change the history. The third yes, with the Taint being the basis for this, but still can be got around

 

RJ didn't create a reality, he wrote a story with as much background as could ever be expected.  Thus, literally ANYTHING can be 'got around'.  That's the problem.  Justifications can rain down all day for the change, but the change itself remains ridiculous.

 

[Rose]

19 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 

Stop with this.

The DR being a female. the Ads Sedai thinking the DR could be female and the people of the world RJ created thinking the DR could be female is a complete departure from the lore and the story that RJ wrote.

If that is ok for you that Is completely fine.  No one can say what is acceptable to you other than you, but please don't try and justify it as anything other than a huge departure from the story told.

 

 

What do you want me to "stop"? Stop stating facts from the books?

 

I never said that the DR being a woman or the people in the Westlands thinking DR could be a woman isn't a departure from the books. Literally, I never said this. It is very obviously a departure.

 

I am not trying to "justify" anything. I'm trying to understand what the people making the show are thinking, why they're making the choices they're making, what they're basing their ideas on, and what it implies for what we're likely to see in the show. Because, you know, there's a show coming out, and I find it exciting and intriguing to delve into what might be and what's in store for us?

 

I do not appreciate being told to "stop" just because you don't like the changes. I'm allowed to discuss the changes and try to understand them in a forum that's dedicated to this topic. If you don't want to hear me analyze and speculate, go somewhere else.

[Ralph]

Without going back over all the divergent threads we have running on the same topic, it seems that the people who are up in arms about this change and are close to certain it will ruin the show are the same people who are convinced it was changed solely to push an agenda and not for any in story reason. Is that accurate? 

 

We all accept it is a clear and significant change. I don't accept it is "huge" or "ridiculous". 

[MasterAblar]

12 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

The first only if souls are gender restricted, which can be changed. The second they can easily change the history. The third yes, with the Taint being the basis for this, but still can be got around

 

I was thinking of them all combined not actually seperate. Which is why LTT being a man was important because it would have inspired the falsed dragons, which would have tipped off people that DR would be a man (if they didn't know already).

 

And they can introduce female false dragons for sure (hell I wouldn't be suprised if that had happened in the books, people do all kinds of crazy things) but it changes the way the dragon reborn is viewed is all, so they have to take that into consideration.

[Maximillion]

23 minutes ago, Rose said:

 

What do you want me to "stop"? Stop stating facts from the books?

 

I never said that the DR being a woman or the people in the Westlands thinking DR could be a woman isn't a departure from the books. Literally, I never said this. It is very obviously a departure.

 

I am not trying to "justify" anything. I'm trying to understand what the people making the show are thinking, why they're making the choices they're making, what they're basing their ideas on, and what it implies for what we're likely to see in the show. Because, you know, there's a show coming out, and I find it exciting and intriguing to delve into what might be and what's in store for us?

 

I do not appreciate being told to "stop" just because you don't like the changes. I'm allowed to discuss the changes and try to understand them in a forum that's dedicated to this topic. If you don't want to hear me analyze and speculate, go somewhere else.

 

What 'understanding' are you seeking?

They departed from the books and made the possibility of a female Dragon part of the lore - which for many ruins the story.

There is not much to understand - they either did it for purely financial reasons to be more 'inclusive' or just purely for modern day progressive cultural reasons, or both.

 

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Maximillion

[Ralph]

2 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 

What 'understanding' are you seeking?

They departed from the books and made the possibility female Dragon part of the lore - which for many ruins the story.

There is not much to understand - they either did it for purely financial reasons to be more 'inclusive' or just purely for modern day progressive cultural reasons, or both.  

Or to explain why Egwene leaves with them without making her an immature brat who abandons her family and responsibilities just for a bit of fun. And who thinks that Trollocs are fun adventure not dangerous. 

 

Did that really never disturb you in the books? 

 

And to be honest, if the reason was inclusivity etc they would have done it better by making Mat or Perrin a woman, which doesn't need to change the story at all. ?

Edited November 4, 2021 by Ralph

[Maximillion]

3 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Or to explain why Egwene leaves with them without making her an immature brat who abandons her family and responsibilities just for a bit of fun. And who thinks that Trollocs are fun adventure not dangerous

 

Back to the Aes Sedai trickery again?

That has been discussed at length already.

The trailer we saw more or less puts that to bed - the only avenue left open for that angle is if what Moraine said in the trailer is not actually part of the show.

Do you honestly think this is still anything more than a remote possibility?

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Maximillion

[Ralph]

Just now, Maximillion said:

 

Back to the Aes Sedai trickery again?

That has been discussed at length already.

The trailer we saw more or less puts that to bed - the only avenue left open for that angle is if what Moraine said in the trailer is not actually part of the show.

 

Nothing to with the trickery, which I never said or thought. If you want to give Egwene a real reason to leave just make her one of the possibilities

[Rose]

8 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

yes, please. I'm sure i'm missing a lot. Sarah's comment? where?

interesting stuff? the previous short clips we saw in the last days, two rivers and winespring inn, didn't look like they had anything new.

this one... besides the voiceover, and the angreal, was there anything else to notice? i didn't even realize the black figure was the angreal, so i'm sure i'm missing a lot of details

 

I was referring specifically to the Moiraine clip that's the focus of this thread and the new IGN clip that's being discussed in a different thread.

 

Sarah's Twitter comments were quoted on page 7 of this thread:

 

- She answered a question about Callandor saying that it needs to be pulled from the Stone by the hand of the Dragon, and that souls are still attached to the pattern in the show (which is a very Aes Sedai answer, which makes me want to dissect it even more lol).

 

- She also talked about the Old Tongue and how it's a gendered language (I was speculating that it might not be, I was wrong) and that it's structured in a way that every sentence has a balance of male and female-gendered words which is super fascinating to me from a linguistics viewpoint (how does that even work? I want to knowwww)

 

My questions about the Moiraine clip that we haven't discussed yet:

 

1. Does anyone recognize the angreal from a book description? It doesn't seem to match any angreal I remember from the books, but also my memory is terrible.

 

2. This looks like the White Tower, right? I even thought for a second that we saw the Amyrlin Seat (the actual piece of furniture) in the foreground while Moiraine is looking at the map, but upon rewatch I think that's wrong. It's probably something else that looks similar. But I'm not 100% sure. It just doesn't make sense for her be in the Hall of the Tower for this, right?

 

2. Has anyone zoomed in and unblurred the map to reveal secret information? I know this fandom is capable of it, but we're getting so much content these days it's hard to keep up lol

[Ralph]

Maybe this should be a new thread, because I think otherwise there will be several concurrent conversations

[Maximillion]

1 minute ago, Ralph said:

Nothing to with the trickery, which I never said or thought. If you want to give Egwene a real reason to leave just make her one of the possibilities

 

Nynaeve too?

'1 of 5'.

There was nothing at all wrong with Egwene's reason for wanting to go along with them - apart from one thing.  It doesn't fit with the modern day thinking of the people with their hands on the tiller when it comes to creating many of the shows we see today.

 

[king of nowhere]

9 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Or to explain why Egwene leaves with them without making her an immature brat who abandons her family and responsibilities just for a bit of fun. And who thinks that Trollocs are fun adventure not dangerous

hey, they changed egwene character because she's the author's favourite! that's a plot change i don't like!