full book spoilers Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers)

[Agitel]

1 minute ago, Skipp said:

Is part of that the purchase cost of the rights, which I believe were in access of 250 million.

 

I'll double check, but I think it's separate from the rights. Amazon wants Rings to turn into a multi-show universe.

[Agitel]

@Skipp It's separate according to Looper, which was also implied by the indie wire article I read earlier.

 

https://www.looper.com/408185/we-now-know-why-amazons-lord-of-the-rings-series-is-so-expensive/

 

I think they want this indistinguishable from a cinematic production.

 

Anyway, enough from me about LotR, but I was curious why WOT kept being referred to as the "poor man's" option relative to LotR (even though it has a sizable budget itself comparable to other shows in its target niche).

Edited November 19, 2021 by Agitel

[AusLeviathan]

There's something about the portrayal of men in this series which is kind of weird.

 

It starts with the lack of the Village Council corresponding to the increase in focus on the Women's Circle and Marin seemingly taking the lead over Bran, thinking about that I can't remember if they even say if Bran is still Mayor. Kind of strange given the balance between the two was pretty important to the EF5 characters.

 

That sort of seems to set the standard for the characters as we see Mat become an explicit thief, Perrin lose his self confidence and even Lan is given Moiraine's decision to go to Shadar Logoth (which Moiraine criticizes him for, so the complete opposite of the books).

 

At the same time Egwene is being portrayed as beloved and being inducted into the Women's Circle and Nynaeve is a Trolloc killing action girl who can track Lan despite the situation seemingly making this impossible (plus they took away her Father teaching her in favor of her refusing to explain how exactly she's this inhumanly good).

 

Strange too how Rand's decisions and actions are no longer based on the danger of the situation or Ba'alzamon's accusations but rather now focused around Egwene. Rand even gets upset at the idea that Egwene has a higher purpose and he doesn't.

 

Then we get to the point where Rand and Mat are chased down by a short, not particular fit woman flinging a sword around (surely at this point they can't portray the Aiel Maidens as being unusual since almost every woman in WOT seems to be an action girl), another complete reversal from the books.

 

At this point I'm just wondering how far they're willing to go with these portrayals. Presumably Logain at least will have to be portrayed as strong and dangerous otherwise there's no point.

[Maximillion]

3 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

There's something about the portrayal of men in this series which is kind of weird.

 

It starts with the lack of the Village Council corresponding to the increase in focus on the Women's Circle and Marin seemingly taking the lead over Bran, thinking about that I can't remember if they even say if Bran is still Mayor. Kind of strange given the balance between the two was pretty important to the EF5 characters.

 

That sort of seems to set the standard for the characters as we see Mat become an explicit thief, Perrin lose his self confidence and even Lan is given Moiraine's decision to go to Shadar Logoth (which Moiraine criticizes him for, so the complete opposite of the books).

 

At the same time Egwene is being portrayed as beloved and being inducted into the Women's Circle and Nynaeve is a Trolloc killing action girl who can track Lan despite the situation seemingly making this impossible (plus they took away her Father teaching her in favor of her refusing to explain how exactly she's this inhumanly good).

 

Strange too how Rand's decisions and actions are no longer based on the danger of the situation or Ba'alzamon's accusations but rather now focused around Egwene. Rand even gets upset at the idea that Egwene has a higher purpose and he doesn't.

 

Then we get to the point where Rand and Mat are chased down by a short, not particular fit woman flinging a sword around (surely at this point they can't portray the Aiel Maidens as being unusual since almost every woman in WOT seems to be an action girl), another complete reversal from the books.

 

At this point I'm just wondering how far they're willing to go with these portrayals. Presumably Logain at least will have to be portrayed as strong and dangerous otherwise there's no point.

 

I think we always knew the show would go further with the feminist element of the show - but, I must admit it is not as bad as I expected.Some of the examples you give above are a bit OTT.

 

Just on Shadar Logoth - I could have sworn that was Lan's idea in the books - not Morraine's?

[AusLeviathan]

14 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

Just on Shadar Logoth - I could have sworn that was Lan's idea in the books - not Morraine's?

Lan suggests it and Moiraine agrees with it being clear that it's her decision and choice to do so. The show takes away Moiraine's agreeing, having her unconscious during the time he thinks of it and so what was Moiraine's risky decision becomes something she admonishes Lan for after the fact.

 

The show also changes the situation, in the book it was clear that there was no other viable option, in the show it comes off as possibly even unnecessary since the Trollocs stop a bit before the city. The way the show presents it they probably would've been better off straddling the outside of the city to lose the Trollocs.

Edited November 19, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[Agitel]

8 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

There's something about the portrayal of men in this series which is kind of weird.

 

I'm interested to see how it all develops. To me, it's a matter of things be abbreviated and limiting the number of characters a new audience has to deal with in an already packed episode while also highlighting certain motifs. The trivia you can access in the bonus features is more nuanced and balanced.

Edited November 19, 2021 by Agitel

[JaneSedai]

18 hours ago, GanoesParan said:

On the Dusty Wheel tonight on YouTube, a theory was talked about as to whether or not Laila Aybara was a darkfriend. Over 65% in the live chat voted that she was. 

When rewatching the episodes, I noticed (what the 65% likely did) that when Perrin turns on her and accidentally strikes her-she was standing behind HIM with her weapon overhead, looking very much ready to strike… ?

[AusLeviathan]

32 minutes ago, Agitel said:

To me, it's a matter of things be abbreviated and limiting the number of characters a new audience has to deal with in an already packed episode while also highlighting certain motifs.

They really change the motifs and characters though. Notably Nynaeve in the books would try to heal someone without thought even if she hates them, Nynaeve in the show has to be bargained with before she'll do the same.

 

Why does she do this? Well as best I can tell the entire point of this change is to make it clear that even though Lan should have control of the situation, Nynaeve is still able to dictate terms. That honestly is how this show seems to have been written. Writing the characters to fit whatever they want to portray at that moment rather than how the character would act.

 

They've claimed that every change was fully thought through for how it will affect the future but I'm not exactly sure how they could do that with the amount of changes across the board they've made.

Edited November 19, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[Agitel]

13 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

Why does she do this? Well as best I can tell the entire point of this change is to make it clear that even though Lan should have control of the situation, Nynaeve is still able to dictate terms. That honestly is how this show seems to have been written. Writing the characters to fit whatever they want to portray at that moment rather than how the character would act.

 

Remember that a change from the books here is that the EF are not currently with Moiraine. While I agree healing is a top priority for Nynaeve, the entire reason she left is to get the EF, and she'll do most anything to get them back, include bargaining in any way she can.

[Starganderfish]

1 hour ago, Agitel said:

Blood and ashes! I just saw that Amazon has a budget of $465 million for just one season of their LotR series.

 

WOT has a comparable budget to later seasons of GOT and The Witcher. LotR is just... huge.

This fits with what we’re seeing. LotR series got the A-Team, the biggest budget, the better CGI. WoT got the b-team. It shows. 
 

The pro-feminist slant is a little blatant but it’s also completely expected in this day and age on TV and film. It’s not nearly as bad as it could be. Also, the nature and history of the Breaking and the Taint does actually lend itself to a world where women have more authority and men aren’t always on top. It’s kind of an “original sin” feeling where men, deep down, have to contend with the fact that they broke the world and if they learn to channel, could do it again. That was always a theme in the books and, if anything, the pro feminist “the power isn’t for you it’s for women” and “the Dragon could be a man or woman” actually does this a disservice and weakens the narrative. It’s integral to the Dragon that he will save the world and break it again… because of the taint. We’ve completely

lost that feeling, that dread. The boys are terrified in the books of being the Dragon because that means they’ll go mad. Now? They barely even seem to care about their “destiny”. 
But for me the two biggest issues are:

1) Rafe clearly lied on his resume - he’s not the Uber-fan he claims. I imagine he’s read the series, or at least most of it, but that’s about it. I’m not buying that his love for the books is all that.

2) the other big thing for me is the new steaming trend of 6 or 8 episode seasons. That’s not limited to WoT. It’s pretty much every show. It’s not enough. Cramming the breadth and depth of epic fantasy into 8 episodes is hard. They’ve cut out heaps to do it and crammed in a bunch of nonsense because they aren’t confident they’ll get the chance to do it all. How much better would this have worked with an old school 20-24 episode season, like in the old syndication days. $10 million an episode over 8 episodes is a lot. But split that $80mill over 20 episodes, level out the pacing, do some actual character development and world building, allow us to grow with characters and the stories… sadly, that’s not how the streaming world works. So instead we have 2 or 3 massive books crammed into 8 episodes and way too much left out. 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Starganderfish

[Agitel]

10 minutes ago, Starganderfish said:

This fits with what we’re seeing. LotR series got the A-Team, the biggest budget, the better CGI. WoT got the b-team. It shows. 

 

I'll just reiterate WOT still has a relatively huge starting budget comparable to how much HBO was investing in GOT at the end of its lifespan, comparable with the budget of The Witcher, too. It's not being shortchanged. They're just literally going all in in LotR.

 

Quote

 

But split that $80mill over 20 episodes, level out the pacing, do some actual character development and world building, allow us to grow with characters and the stories… sadly, that’s not how the streaming world works. So instead we have 2 or 3 massive books crammed into 8 episodes and way too much left out. 

 

 

I agree something like 14 or 16 episodes would add a lot for breathing room and characterization, though it'd also be pretty slow paced. But the big thing is there would be a huge hit to special effects, costuming, and set design.

[AusLeviathan]

22 minutes ago, Agitel said:

While I agree healing is a top priority for Nynaeve, the entire reason she left is to get the EF, and she'll do most anything to get them back, include bargaining in any way she can.

She'll let a person die? Because that's what the show portrayed her as being prepared to do.

 

The whole thing was hilariously short sighted on her part anyway. There's nothing holding Moiraine to anything Lan agrees to anyway and Nynaeve's superhuman tracking skills would probably let her find them easier and faster than Moiraine could.

 

See how these changes start to have issues? How can Nynaeve track Lan in spite of the river crossing they used being gone, how can she track Lan when he had been in a large abandoned city where he wouldn't have left tracks and left in a random exit direction and if she can do that why can't she find the others.

 

For that matter how is the Fade tracking them since there's no Draghkar, another small change that would've cost little (a small flying figure briefly seen in the sky) which creates a plot hole. They really could've used it too as episode one basically ends with Trollocs rushing towards the village only to apparently change direction despite there being no way for them to know they've left.

 

So many changes that just don't make sense and are being written to fit whatever scene they're currently writing rather than the show as a whole.

Edited November 20, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[Agitel]

She may have been bluffing. We're not in her head. He didn't refuse and put her in a position with no negotiating room.

 

The draghkar is really a non-issue. There's no gaping plot hole there. Nothing that can't be accepted as reasonable for the shadowspawn pursuing them.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Agitel

[Windigo]

4 hours ago, Beidomon said:

I agree but the problem is that if the showrunners devoted that much screen time to Rand it would ruin the mystery. 

Not sure about the mystery, but if they focused so much on Rand it would delay the growth (and fan connections) of the other characters. It feels like they will weave the character arcs on more of a parallel timeline, unlike the books where there could be long periods of time with some characters missing in action or just traveling with no real progress in their stories.. 

[AusLeviathan]

18 minutes ago, Agitel said:

She may have been bluffing. We're not in her head. He didn't refuse and put her in a position with no negotiating room.

She didn't bluff anything, she actively withheld care in a situation where every minute mattered, all in a very shortsighted way because if Moiraine dies then she gets no help anyway. It makes no sense except to portray the Lan/Nynaeve dynamic, hence the whole writing characters to match the scene rather than the show as a whole.

 

18 minutes ago, Agitel said:

The draghkar is really a non-issue. There's no gaping plot hole there. Nothing that can't be accepted as reasonable for the shadowspawn pursuing them.

RJ showed the shadow had a flying scout for a reason, to not would've created a massive plot hole of exactly how they were all being followed, of exactly how the shadow knew they had left the village.

 

We see hundreds of Trollocs rushing towards the village as the group quietly leaves and we also see during the attack that unlike the books the Trollocs weren't focused on their targets (they in fact only sent a single Trolloc after Rand).

 

So how exactly in that situation is the Two Rivers not completely destroyed? They can't know that they've left and they clearly don't care about directly going after them and would as far as the shows goes be willing to go through the village anyway.

 

It's such a stupid issue that could've been solved by just adding one single thing at low cost. Is there really any excuse for not doing so other than not caring?

Edited November 20, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[Agitel]

And all could easily be fleshed out later, nor have to be taken in the one-note glass half-empty view you have.

 

Edit: Especially on Nynaeve, there is a perfectly legitimate motivation for why she's make a desperate ploy at bargaining with what she has: to get the Emond Fielders. Just as essential to her, especially early on, is her guardianship of the younger EF. The idea that the only justification is to make a weak social statement is just a weak assertion.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Agitel

[MaxZorin]

If there's no time to flesh it out now, how's there going to be any time to do it later.

 

If the plan to be in a constant state of doing a poor job now with the promise of "fixing it' later, I must say, I think this is a poor plan.

[Windigo]

3 hours ago, RextheDog said:

i assumed i would hate a physical relationship between Rand and Eggy, but it worked, 

This to me was a problem, I could see if it was a little less physical, but the off scene part for me really  does not fit the characters, or timing being as Egwene just had her womans ceremony, and it was not played as if this was the first time. 

[Agitel]

5 minutes ago, MaxZorin said:

If there's no time to flesh it out now, how's there going to be any time to do it later.

 

If the plan to be in a constant state of doing a poor job now with the promise of "fixing it' later, I must say, I think this is a poor plan.

 

I never said it was a poor job. Draghkar can easily be introduced later with a comment that they're often used for scouting/tracking/following, and we can retroactively apply that knowledge. Even without, it's not like it's beyond reason that the party can be tracked by a Myrdraal and trollocs, as far as viewers know.

[AusLeviathan]

7 minutes ago, Agitel said:

Even without, it's not like it's beyond reason that the party can be tracked by a Myrdraal and trollocs, as far as viewers know.

Perhaps Nynaeve and a Fade can have a competition to see which one can employ their unexplained blatantly impossible tracking skills better.

[CaddySedai]

I don't recall anyone actually trying to HIDE their tracks through the woods. So tracking shouldn't be an issue.

 

My issue is not that they were tracked.

 

Its more that somehow Lan thought they shouldn't be ?

[MaxZorin]

4 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

Perhaps Nynaeve and a Fade can have a competition to see which one can employ their unexplained blatantly impossible tracking skills better.

A reimagining of Anthropology Days, for the modern sophisticated lad.  

[Agitel]

A woman can't have tracking skills if she won't explain who taught her. Inconceivable.

 

I told myself I was going to be done with the conversation, but I couldn't help it. People use the term "plot hole" nowadays for anything.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Agitel

[MasterAblar]

So I've just rewatched the 1st episode and I'd argue up until the attack its quite good. The attack has its ups and down. It does well to convey the pure chaos and terror, but sometimes its just too chaotic too follow.

 

I will say this: more focus on the trollocs actually targeting Rand, Mat, Perrin, and now Egwene I suppose, would have helped a lot to alleviate what is the greatest problem of the episode which is the last 5 minutes of the episode. In particular the last 2 where Moiraine basically says "They're after you, lets go". Straight up dropping on them that one of them is the Dragon Reborn is also completely out of character for Moiraine in my opinion who would never share that kind of information so freely. It also makes me wonder if it was entirely necessary to tell the audience so openly early on that she is searching for the Dragon Reborn.

 

Still I'd argue that the 1st 60% of the episode is honestly quite good, its just let down afterwards by the insane tempo that is set.

[MasterAblar]

5 minutes ago, Agitel said:

A woman can't have tracking skills if she won't explain who taught her. Inconceivable.

 

I told myself I was going to be done with the conversation, but I couldn't help it. People use the term "plot hole" nowadays for anything.

 

Agreed I don't need to be spoonfed every single tiny bit of logic to explain every situation. Nyneave is a good tracker. This tracks (hehe) from the books. So she was able to find them, although she won't tell Lan how which is pretty damn in character for Nyneave to be honest. It's not particularly hard to believe and doesn't break immersion in the slightest in my opinion.