full book spoilers Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers)

[MasterAblar]

I guarantee you the vast majority of the audience is not thinking so hard about these things. Most people don't examine every scene and every word to find an inconsistency.

[Harad the White]

34 minutes ago, Katherine said:

I think that’s what disqualified him as the dragon reborn because.. according to her logic… the pattern would not have allowed that to happen.

That's a dangerous explanation. It jumps into the morass of free-will vs. predestination. If the pattern rules, then Moiraine can take a vacation and all will be well. Other than that, right on!

[Maximillion]

Just now, Agitel said:

 

Ah, okay, you're in full negative spin mode and have abandoned reality.

 

What did Valda ask her that would give him insight into Morraine being an Aes Sedai?

Where are you from?

Search the horses?

...

More to the point, there would be a mark on Morraine's finger where she wore her ring, but apparently that  was not their either or Valda is not smart enough to spot when someone has removed a ring.

 

 

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Maximillion said:

 

What did Valda ask her that would give him insight into Morraine being an Aes Sedai?

Where are you from?

Search the horses?

...

More to the point, there would be a mark on Morraine's finger where she wore her ring, but apparently that  was not their either or Valda is not smart enough to spot when someone has removed a ring.

How do you know he didn't?

[Harad the White]

8 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Yeah I am. Most of my problems with the show are just that it sucks on its own.

Not sure why that doesn't qualify as coming on the forum to trash the show. Defending the show from this puts me in the same boat?

[Maximillion]

3 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

I guarantee you the vast majority of the audience is not thinking so hard about these things. Most people don't examine every scene and every word to find an inconsistency.

 

Yes, it's made for an audience that the majority of which will not care in the slightest about the plot hole.

I don't deny that.  

The show doesn't really seem to care for knitting the story together properly.  Another example is the mysterious disappearance of an army of Trollocs from outside Shadar Logoth.   I guess they just gave up and went home, or maybe they did go into the city and all die?  Who the hell knows .. and I doubt most watching would care.

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Maximillion said:

Another example is the mysterious disappearance of an army of Trollocs from outside Shadar Logoth.

Yes, I'm sure we will never see or hear from the trollocs again. ?

[Harad the White]

2 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

The show doesn't really seem to care for knitting the story together properly.  Another example is the mysterious disappearance of an army of Trollocs from outside Shadar Logoth.   I guess they just gave up and went home, or maybe they did go into the city and all die?  Who the hell knows .. and I doubt most watching would care.

Oh good. You've found a Book plot glaring hole.

[Maximillion]

27 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

How do you know he didn't?

 

Well that leads to a place that is even more ludicrous - Morraines plan was to just take the ring off and leave a mark there and hope none of the Whitecloaks would notice?

 

That scene doesn't fit based on what proceeded it - it looks like it was a just a clunky way to set up Egwene asking a question of Morraine about lying and trying to position the Aes Sedai as more complicated than that.. but ended up making the whole thing seem silly.

 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Maximillion

[Maximillion]

1 minute ago, Harad the White said:

Oh good. You've found a Book plot glaring hole.

 

Nope - a TV series glaring hole.

The idea that an Aes Sedai could not actually lie even she wanted to was already landed in the show.

No book necessary.

 

[Harad the White]

Just now, Maximillion said:

 

Nope - a TV series glaring hole.

The idea that an Aes Sedai could not actually lie even she wanted to was already landed in the show.

No book necessary.

 

Egad, the Trollocs didnt follow the party into Shadar Logoth IN THE BOOK. Churning churning churning

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Maximillion said:

Well that leads to a place that is even more ludicrous - Morraines plan was to just take the ring off and leave a mark there and hope none of the Whitecloaks would notice?

What was the alternative at that point?

[AshennaSedai]

Re: The Red Ajah scene

 

Honestly, I felt it was there just to establish the madness. No more and no less.

[swollymammoth]

15 minutes ago, Agitel said:

I know we'll see White Cloaks again, and per Rafe we'll get a little more insight this season on how they managed to kidnap Aes Sedai,

Just curious, but how do you think they do that? I actually think this is an interesting opportunity for the writers to do something really clever that makes the show stand out from the books. Personally, I'm imagining powdered forkroot on an arrowhead or something like that would be neat. 

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, AshennaSedai said:

Re: The Red Ajah scene

 

Honestly, I felt it was there just to establish the madness. No more and no less.

If you mean the figmentshiphood of the "old man" you can join the bet (25 electrons each) whether he appears later in the series. The actor is Jan Petrina and he is also the stunt coordinator, and he will be back, is the bet.

[Maximillion]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

What was the alternative at that point?

 

The alternative was not to put such a scene in the show at that point - OR not have Morraine telling Egwene about the oaths a few minutes earlier.

It's just bad writing - almost as if two totally different teams wrote both scenes in the same episode and weren't sharing.

 

[Agitel]

6 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Just curious, but how do you think they do that? I actually think this is an interesting opportunity for the writers to do something really clever that makes the show stand out from the books. Personally, I'm imagining powdered forkroot on an arrowhead or something like that would be neat. 

 

At the moment I'm assuming Rafe will use methods established in the books. Catch an Aes Sedai by surprise (either by slipping something like forkroot into her drink and blunt force trauma) and then either keeping her dosed with forkroot or moving her into a known stedding. While I don't like it as much, I could see Rafe not using stedding or forkroot and going instead with head trauma/pain so they can't focus. Or maybe for the show movement really will be featured as much more a part of the weaves for many channelers (with explanations for "it's all about how you learn it" for edge cases) and cutting off the hands really does mess up the typical Aes Sedai. At least in the moment. 

 

So... everything everyone's already theorized, lol. I think surprise and forkroot/drugs would be the most obvious and best way to handle it.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Agitel

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, Maximillion said:

The alternative was not to put such a scene in the show at that point - OR not have Morraine telling Egwene about the oaths a few minutes earlier.

It's just bad writing - almost as if two totally different teams wrote both scenes in the same episode and weren't sharing.

I loved the scene. Plenty of tension. Sorry it didn't land for you.

[Maximillion]

6 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Egad, the Trollocs didnt follow the party into Shadar Logoth IN THE BOOK. Churning churning churning

 

I'm not talking about the book.

You seem to fall back on the false assumption that all criticism is about the adherence to the book.

It isn't.

 

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, Maximillion said:

The alternative was not to put such a scene in the show

Let's leave out all the scenes the nitpickers and naysayers don't like. The show will go something like this:

Rand wakes up. He fights the Dark One. Victory! Then the forum can go back to the lazy river.

[Ralph]

Hello everybody

 

After needing five days to watch three episodes (in ten minute segments unfortunately), I finally had an afternoon off work, and did not expect to use so much of that time reading 42 pages of this forum, instead of doing the many things I planned. ?

 

My small contributions:

 

1) the sacred pool. If you look at the art attached to the episode (on prime) it clearly shows Egwene coming out of it with the paint of the seven colours on her. That is consistent with the colouring on her dress as she is thrown off the cliff. It seems clear it is a cut scene, but maybe it will be used as a flashback later. 

 

2) the xray info on ep3 says wisdoms had to be skilled trackers. Implication that this is the source of Nynaeve's expertise. I liked the theory that Tam taught her, which I read somewhere, but it doesn't look like it. 

 

3) it looks like most of the downers (who think it is terrible etc etc, not who have some sleight issues) were down on it before, and the more positive were the same people who didn't object to the rumoured changes. Some exceptions in both directions, but that is the overwhelming impression I get. This is unfortunate, as it would mean 

 

4) re the CotL, I understand that most people appear to accept that it is good they want them to be a greater threat, just that there is an issue with them not just adding Moiraine "are you...?" Iirc it is explicit in the books they don't believe in the Three Oaths, so I don't really get the problem. 

 

5) maybe it is just bc I waded through all of this in one afternoon, but I am finding both in this thread and some others, that there are many separate conversations going on. Maybe it would be worthwhile, at least re future episodes, if we divide the whole episode into separate scenes, and each scene had its own thread. It would be a lot, but it could compartmentalise the discussion at make it much clearer. 

We would also keep the separate overarching discussions, but keep them to general discussion, eg CGI etc. 

 

6) the frustration I believe many have felt with the way some have expressed their views is not because anybody is uninterested in the discussion, or wants to stay in their echo chambers, but for two reasons. One is that sometimes people (on both sides) have taken the stance that "my opinion is the truth and anyone who disagrees is..." This is often offensive, and never promotes discussion. 

Second is that very often, and perhaps I saw this more because of the way I have read this thread, the response to a comment (again from either side) is just to say the same thing more forcefully. If we disagree, we agree to disagree. If you have something to add to your previously stated opinion, that is always welcome. Just saying the same again is pointless. 

 

7) finally, and sorry for the lengthy response, please can we kill all comments about whether RJ II has read the books, or is a fan. I believe he is, though many others may be "better" fans ?, but it is really not material to the conversation. 

 

Thank you

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Ralph

[Maximillion]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

I loved the scene. Plenty of tension. Sorry it didn't land for you.

 

I think I am on record as saying I liked the scene too - in and of itself.

It just doesn't fit properly with the story being told on screen.

 

[Agitel]

Just now, Harad the White said:

Let's leave out all the scenes the nitpickers and naysayers don't like. The show will go something like this:

Rand wakes up. He fights the Dark One. Victory! Then the forum can go back to the lazy river.

 

Ah, so the speed run version. I'd make a video game allusion to Zelda Breath of the Wild, but I don't think everyone here is a gamer.

[Elendir]

Good work @Maximillion. You pretty much destroyed all your validity about plot holes by reasoning about "where Trollocs disappeared?". It is not hard to find answer on this question, no matter if you base on a book or TV series.

[Maximillion]

6 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Let's leave out all the scenes the nitpickers and naysayers don't like. The show will go something like this:

Rand wakes up. He fights the Dark One. Victory! Then the forum can go back to the lazy river.

 

The scene could simply have been written much better than it was.

Could still have been there - if they really HAD to have it.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Maximillion