full book spoilers Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers)

[Maximillion]

3 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

Then we don't agree.  Que sera sera. ?

 

Fair enough - I just think Brandon Sanderson was right when he said it was problematic.

I think they should have listened to him instead of ignoring his input.

 

[DaddyFinn]

1 minute ago, Maximillion said:

 

What happened when he caught the other 7 Aes Sedai he killed?

We don't know, right? 

[Beidomon]

Sanderson is right. And I (and several others) pointed this out several days ago. Valda questioning Mo was not well thought out, and there are just some fans who for whatever reason, want to engage in the mental gymnastics of trying to justify every writer decision. Whatever floats their ferry.

[DaddyFinn]

12 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

just some fans who for whatever reason, want to engage in the mental gymnastics of trying to justify every writer decision.

And some fans who do the same to bash every decision

[Maximillion]

5 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

And some fans who do the same to bash every decision

 

I think it is deeper than 'bashing every decision'.  Rafe didn't didn't just make a mistake here... he ignored the advice of the guy who authored some of the series and had been entrusted with finishing the story that Robert Jordan created.  That is more fundamental and does not paint Rafe in a good light.  This is clearly HIS story and not Robert Jordans.

Seems like it is Rafe's way that counts really and from what we have seen so far, he's shown he doesn't really understand the books at all, rather has some notion of what he thinks the story should have been.

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Maximillion

[notpropaganda73]

1 minute ago, Maximillion said:

 

I think it is deeper than 'bashing every decision'.  Rafe didn't didn't just make a mistake here... he ignored the advice of the guy who authored some of the series and had been entrusted with finishing the story that Robert Jordan created.  That is more fundamental and does not paint Rafe in a good light.  This is clearly HIS story and not Robert Jordans.

Seems like it is Rafe's way that counts really and from what we have seen so far, he's shown he doesn't;t really understand the books at all, rather has some notion of what he thinks the story should have been.

 

This is just framing one sentence from Brandon in a way that validates what you think about the show/Rafe and it's, quite frankly, absolute BS.

[notpropaganda73]

27 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

Sanderson is right. And I (and several others) pointed this out several days ago. Valda questioning Mo was not well thought out, and there are just some fans who for whatever reason, want to engage in the mental gymnastics of trying to justify every writer decision. Whatever floats their ferry.

I don't really need to perform mental gymnastics to think that the scene still works. I think going down the line of "Why doesn't he just ask her straight out if she is Aes Sedai" is going down the route of "Why didn't the Eagles just drop the ring in to Mount Doom". The easy answer is: because the narrative demands it. 

 

I think the scene still works because the actor playing Valda has done it really well and so you get that creepy sense of dread from him rather than someone who stomps up to a woman and just asks straight out if they are Aes Sedai. Yes the latter makes more sense if you are going to robotically go round killing AS, but it doesn't make for very interesting or good TV.

 

(Please don't come back to me with all the in-universe reasons on the Eagles question in LoTR, I'm well aware of them haha). 

[Gothic Flame]

50 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

This is just framing one sentence from Brandon in a way that validates what you think about the show/Rafe and it's, quite frankly, absolute BS.

Really?

I think if Mrs Rigney handed the job of finishing the books to Rafe would you think differently?

Considering Rafe's penchant for alterations I don't think anyone would be pleased.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Gothic Flame
Clarity

[Maximillion]

5 minutes ago, DermidAjala said:

Episode 4 is the episode of Logain

 

 

 

 

Is that Nynaeve channelling at the end there with Morraine lying on the ground helpless or is that another Aes Sedai?

Edited November 24, 2021 by Maximillion

[DaddyFinn]

5 minutes ago, DermidAjala said:

Episode 4 is the episode of Logain

 

Official teaser - https://youtu.be/DHZdkuu4XGU

Actor teaser - https://www.instagram.com/tv/CWqQtEUI1Bq/

Alvaro is always funny with his social media posts. I cherrypicked this particular shot from the teaser

 

Spoiler

 

[notpropaganda73]

7 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Really?

I think if Mrs Rigney handed the job of finishing the books to Rafe would you think differently?

Considering Rafe's penchant for alterations I don't think anyone would be pleased.

I really don't understand what you're getting at or what your hypothetical has to do with anything. the poster took one quote from Brandon Sanderson to suit what they think about the show and say that Rafe doesn't understand the books. It's absolute nonsense, because multiple other quotes from the same source talks about how much Rafe does love and understand the books. 

 

We can criticise changes and choices made in this adaptation without just making things up, but some seem to have trouble with that last part. 

[DermidAjala]

2 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Alvaro is always funny with his social media posts. I cherrypicked this particular shot from the teaser

 

  Hide contents

 

It's a beauty.

 

I presume this will replace the laughing at Rand in Caemlyn scene. Probably laughing at the whole group in Tar Valon yet unclear who in particular he is laughing at or if he's simply mad.

[DaddyFinn]

3 minutes ago, DermidAjala said:

or if he's simply mad.

I remember vaguely about reading that he's more mad than in the books. No source for that

[JenniferL]

We don’t need yet another thread arguing about who’s opinion is the correct one. If you don’t like the show, no one is forcing you to watch it and you certainly aren’t obligated to post about something you don’t enjoy. 

[Elder_Haman]

59 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 

Is that Nynaeve channelling at the end there with Morraine lying on the ground helpless or is that another Aes Sedai?

It's Alanna. And Moiraine is lying on the ground. No indication that she's helpless.

[Harad the White]

The meaning of originality in science or in art is not that there is no source material, it's that something new is added. Einstein, one of the most original thinkers in history, used results and theories of Lorentz and Planck.  Nearly every movie--Gone With The Wind, All The President's Men, Harry Potter-- is both original and based on source material. Amazon's WoT is original AND based on source material. The incarnation of the characters is original for one simple example. Also the solution of taking the plot from the beginning to the end is original. So far, so good.

[Tim]

There was a fair amount that was confusing to me about the whitecloaks confrontation, but I don't know how much of that is due to the writers not thinking things through and how much is due to them trying to pack so much into a compressed scene and leaving things unexplained on the basis that "we can explain it later". 

The scene hinted at a clear rift or at least division between the main Children and the Questioners - at the end Bornhald plans to go find the trollocs whereas presumably Valda wants to capture the Aes Sedai going after Logain. Given Bornhald specifically tells Moiraine to seek out an Aes Sedai for healing (and says that the Children try to steer clear of Aes Sedai when they can) it's possible that the Children don't have a policy of hunting down Aes Sedai, and that Valda did not want to potentially force an armed confrontation in front of Bornhald, especially after Bornhald discovered Moiraine's trolloc wound and basically shut down the interview. Of course Bornhald knows that Valda does hunt Aes Sedai - not least because he parades his chain of rings - but his own words suggest he doesn't exactly approve of the practice. Eamon may have decided it was better not to straight out ask the question if the resulting confrontation would put Geofram offside.

 

Given that, it's not clear to me whether the writers just ran roughshod over the question of "why doesn't Eamon just straight out ask Moraine if she is Aes Sedai", or rather have some complex rationalisation that may or may not become apparent to viewers later.

 

The answer to that question may matter very little in practice, of course, if the viewer is left none the wiser.

[Harad the White]

4 minutes ago, Tim said:

The scene hinted at a clear rift or at least division between the main Children and the Questioners - at

This rift is in the Book. As described above, the scene works, and there are logical underpinnings to the action as shown.

[Tim]

Yes the rift is in the books, but I think most ordinary Children (probably including Geofram) in the books would jump at the chance to kill an Aes Sedai if they thought they could.

[Harad the White]

6 minutes ago, Tim said:

Yes the rift is in the books, but I think most ordinary Children (probably including Geofram) in the books would jump at the chance to kill an Aes Sedai if they thought they could.

Thanks for your opinion. Good thing Amazon didn't agree or the series would be over.

[Elder_Haman]

8 minutes ago, Tim said:

Yes the rift is in the books, but I think most ordinary Children (probably including Geofram) in the books would jump at the chance to kill an Aes Sedai if they thought they could.

I don't know about that. We really don't get much in the way of 'ordinary Children'. Galad is able to swing a lot of people into a less confrontational posture pretty easily. I get the feeling that the rank and file "Child" is really mostly about money and a vague sense of purpose as opposed to being bloodthirsty for Aes Sedai blood. 

[notpropaganda73]

6 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Thanks for your opinion. Good thing Amazon didn't agree or the series would be over.

I didn't think Tim was nitpicking at the scene, just discussing its implications.

[Harad the White]

3 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

didn't think Tim was nitpicking at the scene, just discussing its implications.

And the implication of the opined battle between the Children and Moiraine? (As Elder_H sez, that is not a given in the Book). The only alternative is to s***-can the scene, which, imho, loses far more than it gains.

[TheDreadReader]

47 minutes ago, Tim said:

There was a fair amount that was confusing to me about the whitecloaks confrontation, but I don't know how much of that is due to the writers not thinking things through and how much is due to them trying to pack so much into a compressed scene and leaving things unexplained on the basis that "we can explain it later". 

 

 

As much as modern viewers/readers like things to be 'hard' and clearly defined, there can be a benefits to leaving a little cognitive dissonance in the mix.  Although, I think this may be another of those things where the dissonance is more pronounced to those familiar with the material. 

 

 

47 minutes ago, Tim said:

 

 

The scene hinted at a clear rift or at least division between the main Children and the Questioners - at the end Bornhald plans to go find the trollocs whereas presumably Valda wants to capture the Aes Sedai going after Logain. Given Bornhald specifically tells Moiraine to seek out an Aes Sedai for healing (and says that the Children try to steer clear of Aes Sedai when they can) it's possible that the Children don't have a policy of hunting down Aes Sedai, and that Valda did not want to potentially force an armed confrontation in front of Bornhald, especially after Bornhald discovered Moiraine's trolloc wound and basically shut down the interview. Of course Bornhald knows that Valda does hunt Aes Sedai - not least because he parades his chain of rings - but his own words suggest he doesn't exactly approve of the practice. Eamon may have decided it was better not to straight out ask the question if the resulting confrontation would put Geofram offside.

 

My impression on first watch was that Valda was pretty confident that Moiraine was an Aes Sedai and therefore did not need to ask the direct question.   At this point we don't really know how the CoL managed to capture the yellow that we saw at the open so we can't really say that they had the means available to do so in this case or it was tactically unfeasible at that moment.  

 

Perhaps, they need specific things (ambush, steddings, a means to give the sister forkroot) and creating a direct confrontation in the absence of those things risks them getting killed (because Moiraine could invoke the 'fear for her life' clause). 

 

Since, I think Valda knew or strongly suspected.  I think the "go south" decision can be justified as possibly moving into position where they might be able to capture Moiraine in the future (especially if he knows about the party escorting Logain and roughly where they might be.

 

 

 

47 minutes ago, Tim said:

Given that, it's not clear to me whether the writers just ran roughshod over the question of "why doesn't Eamon just straight out ask Moraine if she is Aes Sedai", or rather have some complex rationalisation that may or may not become apparent to viewers later.

 

 

 

Given the importance of words in this episode, I think not asking the direct question is really the best strategy.   Calculate the risk/reward wrong and you get a fireball to the chest.

 

 

[Elder_Haman]

I liked the scene. Seemed to me like Valda suspected, but didn't really care to provoke a confrontation in that moment. He's just being deliberately unnerving. Splitting away right after makes me think he wants to spring his own trap for her, away from the eyes of someone who might not approve.

 

Or at least that's how I read it.