full book spoilers Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers)

[AusLeviathan]

4 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

I laughed long and hard when big trolloc ate the intestines of little trolloc. It was a feel-good moment.

Ah that's how Nynaeve killed him, should've remembered not to eat before going swimming.

Edited November 24, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[ArrylT]

2 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

I laughed long and hard when big trolloc ate the intestines of little trolloc. It was a feel-good moment.

 

*serious thought*

 

That scene totally surprised the heck out of me but it was hilarious yet scary yet a great nod to what Trollocs not fully under the command of a Faceless would be like.   I think one of the strengths (yet weaknesses) of this show is that it can have these myriad vibes.  Strength because it can work from so many ways but weakness because not everyone appreciates a show that isnt 1 thing.

 

*other thought*

 

Wonder if the Trolloc thought the other Trolloc tasted like chicken.

[Harad the White]

5 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

Let's just end it by acknowledging that it's one of the worst scenes ever written and leave it at that.

No, it was just fine. It introduced the Aes Sedai, men channelers, and the conflict between them, all in a few moments. Not to mention Owein who will net me a bunch of electrons when he returns. Oh..and Moiraine and Lan on a far away cliff.

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, AusLeviathan said:

Ah that's how Nynaeve killed him, should've remembered not to eat before going swimming.

It's a heartwarming thought to think of lad trolloc running out of the cave and his mommy yelling, "Wait 30 minutes before swimming my darling monster."

[Harad the White]

10 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

Wonder if the Trolloc thought the other Trolloc tasted like chicken.

Now that's silly. Chicken in that world were known as Chth'o'll'gr'dn and tasted like pure pork snausage.

[Kudzu]

9 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

No, it was just fine. It introduced the Aes Sedai, men channelers, and the conflict between them, all in a few moments. Not to mention Owein who will net me a bunch of electrons when he returns. Oh..and Moiraine and Lan on a far away cliff.

 

Wait, I thought you were referring to Owyn (i.e. Thom's nephew) this whole time. I'd forgotten Owein was one of Allana's warders. So the bet is that the imaginary guy will show up as one of Allana's warders at some point?

[Harad the White]

3 minutes ago, Kudzu said:

So the bet is that the imaginary guy will show up as one of Allana's warders at some point?

No, Owein is now Maksim so should be a strong male channeler, or so they said.

[ArrylT]

Thanks @Harad the White   Your trolloc comment helped me realize another little bit of WOT Lore.

 

As we may recall there are 12 different tribes / bands of Trollocs.   Well if you look closely in that scene I think the 2 Trollocs are of different tribes - and the different tribes in WOT usually hate each other and only work together when commanded by a Fadeless

 

So I am going to assume he had extra motivation to attack & eat a member of a different tribe.

 

[Harad the White]

6 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

So I am going to assume he had extra motivation to attack & eat a member of a different tribe.

And that tribe was known for their peppery Chth'o'll'gr'dn flavor. 

[Kudzu]

5 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

No, Owein is now Maksim so should be a strong male channeler, or so they said.

 

Look mate, if I'm putting my hard earned electrons on the line I need to understand what the bet is.

 

So imaginary guy isn't Owein, but Maksim, who you think will be a channeler? So not only does he know invisibility, but also the mask of mirrors, since the guy in the scene clearly wasn't Taylor Napier.

[Harad the White]

5 minutes ago, Kudzu said:

Look mate, if I'm putting my hard earned electrons on the line I need to understand what the bet is.

Ok, Brah. Electrons don't grow on trees so we better made d**n sure we know what the bet is. You're in the figment camp. The bet is that the old guy seen running with the young FD, will reappear in Amazon, and prove he exists. A, perhaps, unreliable source on this usually reliable forum answered his name was "Owen." But for the purposes of this bet, that is irrelevant. My guess is he's a strong male channeler but his figmentshiphood is the only issue in the bet.

[Kudzu]

Fair enough, if old mate shows up again at all you can have my electrons.

[Harad the White]

55 minutes ago, Kudzu said:

old mate shows up again at all you can have my electrons.

Let's stick to the original wager. The Coulombic forces will disrupt you if you give too many electrons. But your side is looking good because X-ray indicates he is Jan Petrina, also the stunt coordinator, so will he come back? On the third ✋,  he has appeared as an actor in the MCU. The tension is palpable.

[Harad the White]

After further research the name of repast when the big trolloc ate the little trolloc is Trolloc Haggis, served now at your local AM/PM minimart.

[Maximillion]

Brandon Sanderson commented on the scene where the party met the Whitecloaks… makes a good point that it was problematic because an Aes Sedai not being able to lie would make any run in with Questioner impossible to hide themselves as being an Aes Sedai. 
 

One simple Question … ‘Are you an Aes Sedai’ pretty much ends it. The best Moraine would have been able to do was come across as evasive.

 

 It’s an example of what I think comes across more generally as story lines for the changes not being well thought through and/or not being well written.

 

 

[Skipp]

9 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

Brandon Sanderson commented on the scene where the party met the Whitecloaks… makes a good point that it was problematic because an Aes Sedai not being able to lie would make any run in with Questioner impossible to hide themselves as being an Aes Sedai. 
 

One simple Question … ‘Are you an Aes Sedai’ pretty much ends it. The best Moraine would have been able to do was come across as evasive.

 

 It’s an example of what I think comes across more generally as story lines for the changes not being well thought through and/or not being well written.

 

 

@king of nowhere responded to a meme about this in the other thread

 

"Ah, drat. You discovered me. And now you will try to kill me, meaning I am defending my life. Fireball!"

 

And that's why whitecloak inquisitors learned to not prod too much."

 

I wouldn't say this is a problem with this particular scene more of the problem of the WoT lore.  Ultimately I found the scene to be quite tense and a nice display of Aes Sedai word play.

[AusLeviathan]

51 minutes ago, Skipp said:

I wouldn't say this is a problem with this particular scene more of the problem of the WoT lore.  Ultimately I found the scene to be quite tense and a nice display of Aes Sedai word play.

It is a problem with the lore and I'm talking about the lore the show gives us.

 

Valda was clearly looking for her ring so he's not worried about what she'll do if he reveals her to be Aes Sedai and if he was worried about that then why make a big deal about questioning her to the point he even draws attention to the rings he has on him, why not just let her through without issue and follow her? The way the scene plays out there isn't any good reason for him to not ask the question.

 

Sanderson also mentioned that he never expected them to take his advice to have her unconscious during the confrontation as that would take their big star out of the scene. Which is funny when you remember that she later spent a long time unconscious.

 

It's just one of many scenes written to get a point across without regard for whether the scene makes sense in the world they're building.

Edited November 24, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[Maximillion]

21 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

It is a problem with the lore and I'm talking about the lore the show gives us.

 

Valda was clearly looking for her ring so he's not worried about what she'll do if he reveals her to be Aes Sedai and if he was worried about that then why make a big deal about questioning her to the point he even draws attention to the rings he has on him, why not just let her through without issue and follow her? The way the scene plays out there isn't any good reason for him to not ask the question.

 

Sanderson also mentioned that he never expected them to take his advice to have her unconscious during the confrontation as that would take their big star out of the scene. Which is funny when you remember that she later spent a long time unconscious.

 

It's just one of many scenes written to get a point across without regard for whether the scene makes sense in the world they're building.

It makes the decision to inject that change into the story in the way they did even more baffling when it’s clear BS actually advised them on the issue it created.

 

 Given the next scene was Egwene challenging Moraine on why she lied, it looked like the scene was there to then lead to a little explanation of  ‘not the truth you think you hear’… but they just didn’t care too much about the fans who would spot the problem… i.e just very superficial for the viewers not really into the books or digging too deep into lore.

 

 So far the show seems to be like that with a few token things thrown in to try and appease fans of the books.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Maximillion

[RextheDog]

15 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

 

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by RextheDog
innappropriate

[Agitel]

It's possible Valda's failure to ask the obvious question is that he simply thinks it obvious that an Aes Sedai would lie in response, and that the Three Oaths are a fabrication.

 

But it's a big ask for an audience to make that inference without being told.

[ArrylT]

3 hours ago, AusLeviathan said:

It is a problem with the lore and I'm talking about the lore the show gives us.

 

Valda was clearly looking for her ring so he's not worried about what she'll do if he reveals her to be Aes Sedai and if he was worried about that then why make a big deal about questioning her to the point he even draws attention to the rings he has on him, why not just let her through without issue and follow her? The way the scene plays out there isn't any good reason for him to not ask the question.

 

Sanderson also mentioned that he never expected them to take his advice to have her unconscious during the confrontation as that would take their big star out of the scene. Which is funny when you remember that she later spent a long time unconscious.

 

It's just one of many scenes written to get a point across without regard for whether the scene makes sense in the world they're building.

 

The issue with that for me is that the Whitecloaks going around and asking every party they see "Are you Aes Sedai" makes them back into the bumbling fools they get portrayed as in the books.     There was no evidence they were Aes Sedai.    The obvious Aes Sedai party groups would be

 

Man/Woman

Woman/Woman

2 Men / 2 Women

 

None of the Emonds Fields in the party are old enough to look like Warders or Aes Sedai.   The Aes Sedai are not likely to be offering their services as guides or such. 

 

Neither Lan nor Moiraine give off a reaction to the rings.    She acts like a lady thanks to her backstory of having been in a Cairheinen(sp?) house.   Any Aes Sedai in the region would likely be travelling to Ghealden for the war against Logain.  Not in the other direction in a small group with people - there is no Aes Sedai transportation service. 

 

An effective questioner, much like an effective detective in policing simply does not go around asking questions they expect the wrong answer to and make them look incompetent.  They ask questions that lead to the answers they seek or allow the people being asked to trap themselves.    Bornhold had already said Valda would be brief - and since he is currently outranked by Bornhold he couldnt sit there for a long period of time repeating the questions in different ways trying to catch a lie.

 

This was a cursory interrogation done on the road by Whitecloaks who had no reason to believe they were Aes Sedai - probably just checking to see if they were obvious Darkfriends - and a trolloc wound negates that - since both Bornhold and Valda are competent enough to know Trollocs do not attack Darkfriends.

 

  Only we the viewer know Moiraine is Aes Sedai - at the very most they may have had minor qualms about that party but nothing that could be acted upon.

Edited November 24, 2021 by ArrylT

[Maximillion]

17 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

 

The issue with that for me is that the Whitecloaks going around and asking every party they see "Are you Aes Sedai" makes them back into the bumbling fools they get portrayed as in the books.     There was no evidence they were Aes Sedai.    The obvious Aes Sedai party groups would be

 

Man/Woman

Woman/Woman

2 Men / 2 Women

 

None of the Emonds Fields in the party are old enough to look like Warders or Aes Sedai.   The Aes Sedai are not likely to be offering their services as guides or such. 

 

Neither Lan nor Moiraine give off a reaction to the rings.    She acts like a lady thanks to her backstory of having been in a Cairheinen(sp?) house.   Any Aes Sedai in the region would likely be travelling to Ghealden for the war against Logain.  Not in the other direction in a small group with people - there is no Aes Sedai transportation service. 

 

An effective questioner, much like an effective detective in policing simply does not go around asking questions they expect the wrong answer to and make them look incompetent.  They ask questions that lead to the answers they seek or allow the people being asked to trap themselves.    Bornhold had already said Valda would be brief - and since he is currently outranked by Bornhold he couldnt sit there for a long period of time repeating the questions in different ways trying to catch a lie.

 

This was a cursory interrogation done on the road by Whitecloaks who had no reason to believe they were Aes Sedai - probably just checking to see if they were obvious Darkfriends - and a trolloc wound negates that - since both Bornhold and Valda are competent enough to know Trollocs do not attack Darkfriends.

 

  Only we the viewer know Moiraine is Aes Sedai - at the very most they may have had minor qualms about that party but nothing that could be acted upon.

 

 

Don't agree.

They are specifically looking for Aes Sedai that have been sent form the White Tower and they came across woman who could certainly be an Aes Sedai with a man who could certainly be her warder.  That a bunch of other people are in the background of the discussion would not sway a Questioner.  

 

The lack of interrogation by the Questioner can be rationalised away, of course, but it makes him appear not very smart at all and calls into question how that fool could ever have caught and killed 7 Aes Sedai.

 

There is no real way around it - if an Aes Sedai gets herself in a position where she is being questioned like that by a Questioner - her cover is blown.  The best she could possibly hope to do is deflect from questions which would be a dead give away to a Questioner.  They don't need much to draw conclusions.

 

It's just one of many plot holes in the first 3 episodes that point to quite lazy writing and story telling.   WoT is not being presented as the complex story that it is, rather a skim over the surface of the lore made for people who really don't care so much about detail and are happy for the 1 hours entertainment each week before moving on to something else.

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Maximillion

[ArrylT]

Then we don't agree.  Que sera sera. ?

[DaddyFinn]

19 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 

 

Don't agree.

They are specifically looking for Aes Sedai that have been sent form the White Tower and they came across woman who could certainly be an Aes Sedai with a man who could certainly be her warder.  That a bunch of other people are in the background of the discussion would not sway a Questioner.  

 

The lack of interrogation by the Questioner can be rationalised away, of course, but it makes him appear not very smart at all and calls into question how that fool could ever have caught and killed 7 Aes Sedai.

 

There is no real way around it - if an Aes Sedai gets herself in a position where she is being questioned like that by a Questioner - her cover is blown.  The best she could possibly hope to do is deflect from questions which would be a dead give away to a Questioner.  They don't need much to draw conclusions.

 

It's just one of many plot holes in the first 3 episodes that point to quite lazy writing and story telling.   WoT is not being presented as the complex story that it is, rather a skim over the surface of the lore made for people who really don't care so much about detail and are happy for the 1 hours entertainment each week before moving on to something else.

 

What would have happened if Valda had openly accused Moiraine of being an Aes Sedai and/or tried to attack her? Who would have survived? My bet is on Moiraine and the rest. Whitecloaks wouldn't have had a chance.

[Maximillion]

1 minute ago, DaddyFinn said:

What would have happened if Valda had openly accused Moiraine of being an Aes Sedai and/or tried to attack her? Who would have survived? My bet is on Moiraine and the rest. Whitecloaks wouldn't have had a chance.

 

What happened when he caught the other 7 Aes Sedai he killed?