full book spoilers Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers)

[Beidomon]

35 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Because you are conflating plot with character development, I guess?

I’m conflating trauma with character development. It would seem a little weird at this point for Eg to behave like a silly little girl after what she’s seen and been through. 

[Beidomon]

27 minutes ago, Kudzu said:

I'm not sure what the missed layup is though, because I found that Egwene annoying and unrealistic. I think the place she's in now as a character is similar to where she was at this point the books though.

The missed layup I’m referring to is character arc and development. Even if you found her naïveté annoying, I’m not sure it was unrealistic. It was a reasonable starting point for her to grow from. And then she experiences a lot of trauma and she does grow from it. The show seems to have “aged her up” past that point to start the show, and I think that is a missed opportunity for character development. 

[Tim]

Given they get to Shadar Logoth by episode 2, it would be a bit difficult to shoehorn in a scene of Egwene being childish without creating a sense of character development whiplash about 15 minutes later when she's suddenly battle-hardened.

[flinn]

43 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Think Robinhood. He stole from the rich and gave to the poor. Again,  like many things, it's a visual way to take the place of thousands of words.

 Only if Robinhood gambled all of his money away, then had to go steal to replace the money he gambled.

 

 If they had a scene like...

 

 Mat: I only have enough coin for one lantern. I need to turn this into enough for 3.. ah blood and bloody ashes I lost.. now what am I going to do...

 

 I might can buy it.. but no, the writers had to completely ruin it by having this scene instead...

 

 Perrin: How much did he lose this time?

 Rand: I dont know I lost count.

 

 See the huge major difference? They could have made it so much better and easier to digest. Still making Mat a "rogue" but showing some decency as well.

 

 There were other ways to do it without making Mat a bad guy. Yes he sometimes looks after his sisters, but what was that line from 3:10 to Yuma "even bad guys love their mothers".. just because he sometimes looks after his sisters, overall he is a degenerate gambler and a thief.  If Mat stole from you, I am sure you wouldnt be as forgiving after watching him gamble all of his money away.

[Tim]

As it is I think they've done a pretty reasonable job so far in setting up the key beats for Egwene's character, especially in contradistinction to Rand: her ambition and her inclination to work within authority structures when incentivised to do so, versus his stubborn questioning of authority (suspicious of Moiraine, Lan, even Thom, but conversely accepting of Dana). Both of them are presented as decent people, but their divergent attitudes to power and authority seem likely to form a key plot and character dynamic going forward.

[Beidomon]

4 minutes ago, flinn said:

 Only if Robinhood gambled all of his money away, then had to go steal to replace the money he gambled.

 

 If they had a scene like...

 

 Mat: I only have enough coin for one lantern. I need to turn this into enough for 3.. ah blood and bloody ashes I lost.. now what am I going to do...

 

 I might can buy it.. but no, the writers had to completely ruin it by having this scene instead...

 

 Perrin: How much did he lose this time?

 Rand: I dont know I lost count.

 

 See the huge major difference? They could have made it so much better and easier to digest. Still making Mat a "rogue" but showing some decency as well.

 

 There were other ways to do it without making Mat a bad guy. Yes he sometimes looks after his sisters, but what was that line from 3:10 to Yuma "even bad guys love their mothers".. just because he sometimes looks after his sisters, overall he is a degenerate gambler and a thief.  If Mat stole from you, I am sure you wouldnt be as forgiving after watching him gamble all of his money away.

Honest question: so what? Would a redemption story be so bad? Personally, one of my biggest perceived weaknesses of WOT is that many characters were a bit flat. I’m not gonna complain when the writers try to spice them up. I think Mat’s been terrific so far - one of the bright spots - and my only regret is that we’re going to lose the actor soon. 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Beidomon

[Harad the White]

5 minutes ago, flinn said:

There were other ways to do it without making Mat a bad guy. Yes h

Bad guy? Maybe if you're all dressed in white?

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, NightWolf said:

it can be whittled down to 621 episodes... give or take a

620 if you leave out the Seachan.

[Tim]

4 minutes ago, flinn said:

 See the huge major difference? They could have made it so much better and easier to digest. Still making Mat a "rogue" but showing some decency as well.

 

 There were other ways to do it without making Mat a bad guy. Yes he sometimes looks after his sisters, but what was that line from 3:10 to Yuma "even bad guys love their mothers".. just because he sometimes looks after his sisters, overall he is a degenerate gambler and a thief.  If Mat stole from you, I am sure you wouldnt be as forgiving after watching him gamble all of his money away.

 

I agree with this - from the perspective of a book-fan it definitely felt jarring (I hold out a very small hope that he somehow wheedled possession of the bracelet rather than stole it - but it's pretty faint!). 

It makes me wonder if the writers have sketched out a very deliberate "redemption arc" for Mat which tries to pick up some of the books' underlying themes for him but taking a rather more blunt surface approach.

 

In the books Mat is continually disavowing that he cares about people "at large", and then the "joke" is that he in fact does care, even about people who he could conceivably leave to their fate without much judgment like the Aes Sedai captured by the Seanchan in Ebou Dar. But that dynamic plays out very slowly over several books, and a lot of it works based on the reader being inside Mat's head.

The show immediately sets up his ethics as being "me first, my sisters second, my parents and friends third, and no one else matters" - i.e. his actual ethics appear to match the book-character's self-perception. Which sets up a straightforward plot device whereby he gradually discovers his own sense of compassion and responsibility.

 

It might also make it a lot easier to show certain characters seeing the innate, emergent decency in Mat before he or others do - I'm thinking of something like the Jaime / Brienne dynamic in the show version of Game of Thrones.

And might also provide an interesting contrast to Rand, who presumably becomes more Mordeth-ish in his line of thinking as the show progresses.

[Harad the White]

Four naive, sexually-repressed teens, are driven out of their home town by 8 foot monsters in 20 minutes. Where were the moments when the teens bonded and became bffs. How did the monsters go wrong. So much left to my undeveloped imagination.

[JenniferL]

No one is forcing you to participate. 

[Harad the White]

3 minutes ago, NightWolf said:

large chunk of the current energy crisis.

Unless people are driving while posting, the demand for gasoline will decrease.

[Harad the White]

4 minutes ago, NightWolf said:

may be under duress...

We should mount a rescue operation. Someone can storyboard it. Also, please find four sexually-repressed teens for the cast.

[Gothic Flame]

7 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

We should mount a rescue operation. Someone can storyboard it. Also, please find four sexually-repressed teens for the cast.

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, Gothic Flame said:

Now we're talking! Can you cut it down to 620 episodes?

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, NightWolf said:

was also picked second-to last to play kickball after school. Sorry. 

In the book, the Nightwolf character was QB of the trollocball team. Will not be watching the next episodes because of the egregious abomination.

[flinn]

55 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

Honest question: so what? Would a redemption story be so bad? Personally, one of my biggest perceived weaknesses of WOT is that many characters were a bit flat. I’m not gonna complain when the writers try to spice them up. I think Mat’s been terrific so far - one of the bright spots - and my only regret is that we’re going to lose the actor soon. 

 In the beginning of this thread I listed 3? things I hated about the show, Mat was not included.

 

 I don't hate the change, I dont like the change, but the issue I think that bothers me is so many people trying to defend Mat to the point of calling what he did as honorable and comparing him to Robinhood.

 

 No, not at all, not even close. Sure, we can go with a redemption arc, but at least accept it for being a redemption arc and not a "he honorably stole that bracelet from the lady".

 

 Just call a duck a duck is all I am saying.

 

 And I agree about the actor, he is playing the role that has been laid out for him really well IMO. It worries me that there is going to be a change.

Edited November 23, 2021 by flinn

[Harad the White]

Just now, flinn said:

Just call a duck a duck is all I am saying.

Jean Valjean. Now there's a thief!

[AusLeviathan]

I don't actually get where they're going with Mat. With his and Perrin's changed backstories it seems more likely that Mat would want to return to the Two Rivers for his sisters sake whilst Perrin now has a very good reason to move on and not return.

 

So now I'm wondering how they write themselves out of the corner they put themselves in, because it's kind of hard to believe that this Mat wouldn't return for his sisters if the Two Rivers was in danger.

Edited November 24, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[Mailman]

1 hour ago, Harad the White said:

Wow. Your town is attacked by 8 foot monsters out  of myth, half the people are killed, in words, but seeing it on screen makes it "far more brutal." Just need a more vivid imagination.

In the books we only get a 2nd hand account of the battle at Emonds field mainly from Bran and i dont think there was anything like a 50% death rate because of the confusion of the fade not knowing about the festival and the presence of Moiraine and Lan to lead the defence, as well as the healing done by both Moiraine and Nynaeve in the aftermath.

 

No one has yet expained why only 1 trolloc was sent to the Al'thor farm

[Meskell]

8 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

I don't actually get where they're going with Mat. With his and Perrin's changed backstories in seems more likely that Mat would want to return to the Two Rivers for his sisters sake whilst Perrin now has a very good reason to move on and not return.

 

So now I'm wondering how they write themselves out of the corner they put themselves in, because it's kind of hard to believe that this Mat wouldn't return for his sisters if the Two Rivers was in danger.

That is the confusion caused by the change really. 
 

The only way around it is if his dad still walks to Tar Valon and due to the attack has turned his life around. Explains how well his mum and sisters are doing and saying that Mat deserves a chance to explore the world. 
 

or some such similar nonsense. 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Meskell

[WheelofJuke]

While I disliked what they did with Mat's family, it was one of the least bothersome changes. I thought Barney Harris was one of the better-cast out of the main parts, along with Pike. At least his character felt believable to me, unlike Rand and Perrin's wooden walkthroughs.

 

Not sure how a replacement of one of the main protagonists is going fare...do we know who's the new actor, if season 2 is already being filmed? 

 

 

[Harad the White]

4 minutes ago, Mailman said:

No one has yet expained why only 1 trolloc was sent to the Al'thor farm

It was the big mofo Trolloc, twice the size of Lan's mincemeat. General Trolloc thought it was handled. He wasn't counting on Rand being a dirty backstabber.

[Meskell]

5 minutes ago, WheelofJuke said:

While I disliked what they did with Mat's family, it was one of the least bothersome changes. I thought Barney Harris was one of the better-cast out of the main parts, along with Pike. At least his character felt believable to me, unlike Rand and Perrin's wooden walkthroughs.

 

Not sure how a replacement of one of the main protagonists is going fare...do we know who's the new actor, if season 2 is already being filmed? 

 

 

I definitely thought he was the best actor of the lot. He’s being replaced by Donal Finn, who looks a bit more like Rand’s actor. 
 

Agreed on Rand and Perrin being by far the two weakest actors. Rand is very breathy when he talks and Perrin seems to have no ability to talk like a human being. 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Meskell

[Mailman]

2 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

It was the big mofo Trolloc, twice the size of Lan's mincemeat. General Trolloc thought it was handled. He wasn't counting on Rand being a dirty backstabber.

Come on dude. What you are saying makes zero sense.