full book spoilers Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers)

[ArrylT]

On 11/19/2021 at 3:36 PM, Ashaman Caleb said:

I totally called Egwene being a taverean, it makes sense and I always wondered if people theorized in the books that she was one. I’m fine with this, because it doesn’t really change anything. But honestly, it does slightly diminish her character and make some of her accomplishments less impressive. Before she’s doing these things via being a talented woman and now, it’s because she’s taverean? Obviously a bit of both, but I’m sure you understand a bit of what I mean.

Anyway, I get it, don’t mind it, but I can see how people would like or dislike the decision.

 

I think that depends on how we think of ta'averen

 

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Ta'veren

 

It seems to me that being ta'averen doesnt diminish their achievements rather it is an acknowledgement that their place in history was needed to restore balance.  Egwene being considered ta'averen does not make her less of a character imho but rather an acknowledgement that her role was/is vital.

 

Anyways we'll find out soon enough because that wiki reminds us that there are people like Logain and Siuan who can see ta'averen - so we'll learn if they see this in her.

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by ArrylT
spelling edit

[DaddyFinn]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

I understood it to mean they didn’t know where the DR was currently. I’ll be shocked if he wasn’t born on Dragonmount. 

This doesn't leave much room to doubt.

 

Edit. Also the fact we got Tigraine and Blood Snow.

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by DaddyFinn

[DaddyFinn]

52 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

If this show ever reaches the point of the black tower, I have to wonder if we'll get to "males are stronger in the One Power. Which is offset by women can link."

I don't see any reason to change this. Men have more brute force and women are more intricate. Some women and some men have both.

[Arthellion]

I bet we’re going to see that with Logain this next episode.

 

he looks terrifying.

[Harad the White]

This is probably academic but what happens to the amazon story with a female DR? 

 

If she has saidar then the whole plot line of cleansing saidin becomes problematic. There are still male channelers so it's conceivable, but strange. 

Also the Aes Sedai chase of Rand becomes moot. 

Let's face it. It's a completely different story. I don't see a way for the stories to link.

Could the ending be as climactic as with a male DR? Probably not.

 

Maybe the Wheel is not disrupted UNTIL there is a male DR, whereas a female DR just continues in the same cycle.

[DaddyFinn]

11 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

This is probably academic but what happens to the amazon story with a female DR? 

Nothing because Rand is the Dragon.

 

Edit. I realise you are just asking hypothetic(?) questions.

Edited November 22, 2021 by DaddyFinn

[ArrylT]

7 hours ago, Blackbyrd said:

The reel of losing what many assumed would be a main character did take awhile

 

This is almost certainly my top criticism of the series through three episodes and it is what I feel to be a weakish hook and reel. Book hook was Ishi-Lews with the reel being Moraine raising a wall of flame and rolling Earth to one handedly stop 300+ monsters. The reel being even more clever that Mat shouts the old tongue which calls back the Manetheren story which itself is a sort of secondary hook

 

TV hook is the battle at the Inn and the reel is the somewhat hokey mystery of who is the Dragon Reborn. To me it's very TVish and doesn't really inspire- but I am foremost a book person so TV/movie producers generally have a special place of scorn in my heart ? Now could I imagine a world where there is a two hour premiere that possibily begins with the creation of Dragonmount and ends with everyone fleeing from a great danger into the possibly greater danger of Shadar Logoth? You bet I can imagine it, which makes me sympathetic to book folk who aren't feeling it. I do not really have much sympathy for book folk who harp endlessly on things like: 'Nynaeve snuck up on Lan (did she really though? There is a possiblity Lan simply wasn't afraid) so the show is horrible' 

 

Also my Whitecloak thoughts are that the writers see as I do that properly pulling off Falme is gonna be a huge point for the show and so to have Whitecloaks as full fledged villains will help the viewer get invested in their cataclysmic defeat. I also don't wonder if we'll see forkroot tea being a more well known commodity or perhaps even a Whitecloak trade secret

 

I could be mistaken but I believe the first appearance of forkroot

 

Spoiler

was in Amadica when Nynaeve & co have just crossed over the border. 

 

[Harad the White]

19 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Nothing because Rand is the Dragon.

Thanks for sharing this well-reasoned and detailed response. 

[Starganderfish]

25 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

This is probably academic but what happens to the amazon story with a female DR? 

Actually, there’s an even easier solution to this whole thing that we are completely overlooking. 
Maybe some people in the WoT world just don’t understand how reincarnation works. Or maybe Moraine doesn’t. It’s a religion of a sort and its entirely possible some people just get the details wrong. There is no man can be reincarnated as a woman, there can’t be a female dragon but they just don’t really understand all the little details of how it works and they only THINK the Dragon can be a woman.
Maybe Moraine is a member of the highly unpopular “Church of the Genderless Soul” and everyone is just playing along with the crazy woman who thinks the Dragon can be a girl. No one wants to tell her she’s being dumb because she’s an Aes Sedai and they’re afraid she’ll melt their eyeballs. but everyone else knows the Dragons a boy and Lan has been gently steering her in the right direction and patiently playing along every time she goes chasing after a girl. 

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, Starganderfish said:

Lan has been gently steering her in the right direction and patiently playing along every time she goes chasing after a girl. 

Maybe. Moraine doesn't think so in the book.  Or how about: the amazon team thought it was a harmless variation, that would never be realized, so who cares that the implications would break the story. Disappointing. Thanks for the responses.

[ArrylT]

2 hours ago, JenniferL said:

Streaming services don’t do physical media releases. The whole point is to get you to subscribe after all. 

 

That isnt always the case.  Stranger Things is available on DVD

[AusLeviathan]

59 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

This is probably academic but what happens to the amazon story with a female DR?

An actual female DR wouldn't work of course, too many issues with the story. A female False Dragon who believes they're the DR (possibly Egwene) and is accepted by the White Tower could possibly work though. Maybe even tie that into the subplot of the White Tower breaking.

 

I just keep thinking that there has to be some reason for them making this big of a change beyond the mystery gimmick.

Edited November 22, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[DaddyFinn]

9 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

I just keep thinking that there has to be some reason for them making this big of a change beyond the mystery gimmick.

It would be stupid otherwise

[Mailman]

11 hours ago, Harad the White said:

There is one meaningful change as I stated. Your list are a bunch of nits: "There is no gate at Shadar Logoth."

 

This one i included because its bloody stupid where in that City did it appear they where going to produce enough food to feed the city. If you dont have a gate how are you going to supply the city, its a dumb through away line included because they thought it sounded cool.

 

11 hours ago, Harad the White said:

Nits of the day, a selection for your amusement.

 

Perrin has a wife whom he kills? Perrin was a mystical blacksmith in the book. In what way does this nit change his story arc? No identifiable way, taking into account the fact that the story has hardly started.

 

Matt is now a thief. Not even a change unless your version of WoT left that part out.

 

Abell Cauthon a womanizer? The only reason to include this is to shape Matt's character. How does this lead to a non-Matt Matt?

 

Let me know if the rest of the nits should be laid to rest in a continuing series.

 

Perrin was not a mystical blacksmith he was just a apprentice blacksmith. Trying to claim that adding a wife to a main character then having them kill said wife is not going to alter there story arc and is purely a nit pick is ludicrous. The 3 boys where just that when they left the village they where only just starting to assume the roles of adults when the book began. But now one of them is already a married man.

 

Matt is not a thief. The dagger he took from Shadar Logoth was meant to have been abandoned treasure in a deserted city. The only other time i can recall any type of thievery in the books was when Rand and Matt stole a few eggs when they where starving after fleeing Whitebridge, and by this point Matt was falling under the influence of the Dagger.

 

Matt frequently in the books refers to his father and the fact that he was a intelligent and sharp horse trader. Also the womans circle and village council (of which Abell was a member) would have taken a extremely dim view of a womanizer in the books, remember this is a very small very tight knit community that is also on the conservative side.

 

I'm more than happy to debate you on these points but you have so far laid none of the nits to rest.

 

 

[DaddyFinn]

10 minutes ago, Mailman said:

This one i included because its bloody stupid where in that City did it appear they where going to produce enough food to feed the city. If you dont have a gate how are you going to supply the city, its a dumb through away line included because they thought it sounded cool.

Did we see every angle of the city? If not, how can you say with such certainty that there's no gate? Didn't the group approach the city from a forest? Why would there be a gate? Just asking to clarify.

[Mailman]

17 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Did we see every angle of the city? If not, how can you say with such certainty that there's no gate? Didn't the group approach the city from a forest? Why would there be a gate? Just asking to clarify.

Lans story to the boys stated they built it with no gate

[DaddyFinn]

11 minutes ago, Mailman said:

Lans story to the boys stated they built it with no gate

Okay, that's interesting. I missed that completely. 

[Agitel]

4 hours ago, AusLeviathan said:

I just keep thinking that there has to be some reason for them making this big of a change beyond the mystery gimmick.

 

I just think they felt that the impact to the actual story they're telling is small enough compared to the blowback they'd have from "of course the savior has to be a man" crowd.

 

Edit: Also, I don't think every change (Perrin's wife, Mat's family) can be reduced to just "Rafe thinks he knows better." I think there are legitimate justifications for the translation in medium and other choices (yadda yadda yadda). But I do think this one about gender less souls, unless I'm shown otherwise, is a case where Rafe sees himself as correcting a fundamental imbalance. Though that doesn't mean there wasn't also the risk of blowback (see my first paragraph) they were avoiding. I have to wonder how much executive order there was coming down above Rafe after he gave his pitch, too.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Agitel

[Scarloc99]

On 11/20/2021 at 8:43 PM, Akragard said:

And the Wolves. Why are the wolves so small? Did the production team not do any research? Wolves are roughly the size of black bears.

 

They are massive. Those little coyotes or house dogs from episode 3 aren't gonna be taking down a Trolloc or Fade.

This is because they used real animals for much of those scenes, which I am happy about, given how bad the trollocs where CGI wolves, who have to be shown in daylight, would have looked awful. This change I can accept and go with. 

[Scarloc99]

On 11/20/2021 at 10:12 PM, Akragard said:

I got the impression that they combined Master and Mistress Luhan into Perrin and Layla. It's not a great decision, since Perrin is a primary character, but Luhan wasn't super important.

 

I think Elyas will come to the Tinker camp next episode. Weird that they didn't have him there to introduce the Tinkers and make that weird semi-aggressive meeting a little more friendly.

I think the move to have Perrin accidentally kill someone in the first episode is great, I pushes forward his story of not wanting to kill, of him understanding he has a berzerker rage that can kill others. It builds into the reluctance when he meets Faile, I never liked that 20 year olds where so naieve when it came to women. This way he can be reluctant and hold back because of his rage. But I do not like the fact he killed his wife, I would have preferred him killing another character, at the end of the day we could have introduced anyone into the scene to have him kill without it needing to be a created wife. 

[Scarloc99]

On 11/20/2021 at 10:26 PM, swollymammoth said:

I really wish we could define what this means for people who don't get it, but I feel similarly. There's just something about it that seems artificial in the same way that something like Divergent does. Like the difference between a river and a canal. And it's not just the look, it's the way the characters talk and act. The conversation with the Darkfriend chick screamed that to me, but I have the darnedest time explaining what exactly it was. Like the characters don't really inhabit their world but are instead just modern 21st century people wearing fantasy clothes. For some reason, the focus on Laila really rings of this to me. Sounds like Katniss talking about her little sister. I'm rambling, but this is the best I can do to communicate what this sensation is and why it's so distracting. 

 

Will definitely be thinking more about this. 

We have been spoilt by fantastic TV shows that have learnt and evolved. in the 2000's this would have been called a great TV show based on this opening, these considered Pilot episodes and acceptance the series would get going but, we would also have expected 15-20 episodes (remember when a TV series was a decent length) and we would have accepted that TV is the poor mans cinema

 

Game of Thrones set a new standard, from the very first scene it felt like a movie, the quality of script, production and editing sucked you in. Following on from that other series such as See, The Boys, Foundation etc all set that standard. Gone are the days of a rough first few episodes. 

 

If it is only going to be 8 episodes long Wheel of Time should feel like a big screen movie, it should rival Fellowship of the Ring. But instead we have a show runner who proved with Agents of Shield that he sees TV as movies little brother. Compare AOS, which Rafe helped create, to the Marvel limited series on disney plus and you see the difference between a medium budget TV show and a movie quality TV series set in the MCU. I don't know why people are surprised Rafe has not shown any ability to produce Cinema quality TV. 

 

This is what you are reaching for, WOT in this form, should last 20 episodes and be and look as cheap as it does. Then we would accept the Quantity over the Quality. 

[Scarloc99]

On 11/21/2021 at 1:24 AM, NightWolf said:

Ok, thx.

As one of those, never came here before, I had no reason to, I read the books, loved them and really didn't need to post about it, plus I am active on other fantasy areas of the internet. But I watched the series and wanted to know if I was in the minority and missing something, I read reviews and looked online and it seemed many where all gushing over how good it was, so I came here and found that no there are many who feel the same, it seems many people who have loved the books as I have feel exactly the same. The show has some immense issues, largely brought about by Amazons insistance that this would be their Game of Thrones, the Jewel in their crown. I didn't expect it to be the same as GOT but I did expect Emmy winning levels of script, acting, dialogue and special effects. 

[notpropaganda73]

This may be bringing up old news at this point, but I think having criticisms of the show and things that we dislike is absolutely fine and discussing them, venting problems on this forum etc., are also absolutely fine. Something I really take issue with though are suggestions that Rafe or the writers or whoever, all actively hate the books in some way, or are making choices and changes in order to put their own political/personal values into the world of WoT etc. I think comments like this are immature *at best*. I think it is clear as day that Rafe is a huge fan of WoT, and I was encouraged to read Brandon Sanderson's comments on reddit regarding this as well: 

 

 

I saw someone commenting about the ferry scene and how Brandon had to step in on the Three Oaths for example, and that this was proof that Rafe didn't know/understand the books and in fact probably had never read them. They left out that in Brandon's very same answer, he explained that this was totally normal, the Three Oaths are very complicated and when he was writing the books he was pulled up on numerous occasions on their use. Someone also inferred that this "mistake" (which was caught and never actually made it to the show!) was further proof that Sarah was just some shill hired by the studio to shutup fans. Some of the negative comments are vindictive to say the very least.

 

FWIW, I think it's easy to make mistakes with regards to the Three Oaths and the example of the ferry is a good one because if she had destroyed the ferry with the man on it, couldn't you argue that she was destroying the ferry and his death was circumstantial? To be clear, I don't agree that that is the case, but I think it's easy to understand as a potential misstep. 

 

People should remember as well that Rafe isn't some all-powerful studio on his own, chopping and changing things he didn't like for the books to make his own personal vision of WoT. He has notes from the studio and all the producers who probably aren't interested in the books in any way, shape or form. I read one interview where it was mentioned that he got 11,000 notes from the studio. They are only interested in making a successful TV show and they will try and make changes based off that motivation. Rafe has to fight them as well as make choices on what he thinks will work for TV. 

 

You can be critical while still showing a little bit of patience and empathy. 

[DaddyFinn]

4 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

I read one interview where it was mentioned that he got 11,000 notes from the studio.

And that was just for the first episode. 

[Scarloc99]

On 11/21/2021 at 9:16 AM, Mailman said:

• Perrin married then he kills his blacksmith wife.
• Mat is now a thief.
• Abell Cauthon a drunk and a womanizer, his wife a drunk.
• Egwene and Rand having sex. On the same day the Womans circle deems her a adult.
• Moiraine and Lan bathing together.
• Tam a blademaster can not kill 1 trolloc with aid of Rand. Why was only 1 trolloc sent to the al'thor farm
• Nynaeve able to kill a trolloc 1vs1 with no channeling or even having a weapon before stealing one from the trolloc
• Nynaeve able to sneak up on Lan. Track him maybe but too get close enough to kill him without him knowing, garbage.
• Moiraine announcing to the whole village she is aes sedai then spending most of the rest of the episodes as a wounded passenger.
• Emonds Field looks like a collection of squalid hovels.
• Shadar Logoth apparently a city with no gate. WTF
• Mordeth not encountered in Shadar Logoth
• Thom a thief
• Whitecloaks recommending Aes Sedai healing.

And you think theres no meaningful changes and this is far from exhaustive

ok people are latching onto all the changes and focussing on things that don't matter. Moraine declaring she is Aes Sedai doesn't really affect things and it is a small thing that hurries the story along. 

Tam needing Rands help to kill the trolloc, he fights well but again that didnt upset me, it makes the scene tense and adds a sense of drama. 

 

Egwene and Rand having sex, this is obviously not the first time for them, and it makes alot of sense. My one major criticism and frustration of the books is how 20 odd year old men can be so useless round women, when I read the books the first time I was 16 and had a girlfriend. This does not break the series, it makes it more realistic and i think if Robert Jordan was writing the series now he would have taken a similar path. 

 

Matt a Thief, he steals from the body after taking the knife, there is a suggestion that before the bracelet was given to him, or possibly won in private. If it was Stolen in a small village he would be caught easily. 

 

Moraine and Lan bathing together, why is this such an issue, they travel together, fight together, a man and women can get in a bath together and have it not be sexual, it was a non issue for me and, on one scene, showed they are close while not showing anything romantic. 

 

Emonds Field looks about how I imagined it, a village on the edge of the world, as someone who does Roleplay this meets how I see a village like this matching the standard layout of this. 

 

Thom has always been a little edgy, and he isn't a thief, he pickpockets the pickpocket and then keeps the coin as a lesson to Matt, if Matt had been less rude than he may have returned it. Later on he gives it back to Matt, or at least goes to before seeing Matt has already lifted it. I find nothing wrong with this exchange. 

 

Now the other points you make, yes I have issues, any one of these would be an ok shift. Perrin killing someone in the forge is a great moment to show his bloodlust, and feed into his desire to never kill again. Especially if, as I suspect, they will not be showing him killing the Whitecloaks. But giving him a wife to do this was unnecessary, he could have killed any other made up character and got the same effect. 

 

Matts father and Mother and their issues. I can see how it works, it gives Matt a clear reason to want to go hime, to not want to be involved in the whole hero process. Throughout the books, of the 3 boys he is the one who is trying to get out of his destiny, giving him a constant storyline of wanting to get home for his sisters gives him that driver that the casual viewer can understand. Now if they decide to send Matts father on a redemption arc, appearing later in the series a changed man and his mother much better for it, then maybe it is a good story but It really doesn't add anything to the original idea, it doesn't make him more compelling and the same drive for Matt could have come about simply by having his family living on the breadline struggling to get by and reliant on him helping them out. 

 

Nynaeve, I was really frustrated and confused by both her capture (no effort was made in the first episode to make her a character the casual fan would care about), and then how she suddenly displayed martial fighting abilities and was able to kill the Trolloc. I can only assume it will be explained later that her anger in that moment allowed her to have some sort of strength or power and that is how she did it. As for Tracking Lan and Morraine, she isn't really tracking them, she is following the traces of a marauding trolloc horde, that is much easier to follow. Then she reaches Shadar Logath and comes across Lan and Morraine who left the city the way they came in, so easier to spot and track. Sneaking up on him, I was less happy with. 

 

Mordeth, I have had people claim there is a shadow figure in scene for a second that leads Matt to the Dagger, but I agree not at all obvious enough. 

 

I also think Padin Fain should have been shown I know he isnt really involved until the 2nd book but the joy of TV you could show him with the Trollocs and then entering the city. 

 

The Whitecloaks suggesting Aes Sedai Healing, I think this is foreshadowing civil war in the Whitecloaks, i do not anticipate the Whitecloak part of the story following the books much at all, I think of all the things that need pairing back to tell the story they are an aspect that don't really directly tell the main story of Rand getting to the last battle.