full book spoilers Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers)

[MasterAblar]

4 hours ago, Maximillion said:

Making Nynaeve a ‘warrior’ is a complete departure from the books.

Just really bad and lazy writing on her character in the first 3 episodes, very formulaic and designed to appeal at the superficial level.

 

 

 

She stabbed a trolloc in the back after hiding from it. That does not make her a warrior in the slightest. When actually faced with a trolloc straight up, she basically got smashed into a wall.

 

24 minutes ago, rowdie said:

Someone EXPLAIN how white cloaks can just burn an Aes Sedi without her using the power to crush them?

 

Knock her out from behind? Poison her? Catch her in a stedding? Catch her when she's sleeping? An Aes Sedai is only human with human senses. In LoC an Aes Sedai gets assaulted in an alley people posing as Aiel I believe.

 

Also they cut her hands off and a lot of Aes Sedai learn how to channel using their hands, and they can't unlearn it after.

Edited November 21, 2021 by MasterAblar

[MasterAblar]

So to sum it up people are not happy about all this stuff missing basically from the 1st episode:

 

- No village council

- No Padan Fain bringing news to the town

- No entrance by Thom

- No Rand dragging Tam through the woods

- No Tam giving Rand his sword 

- No Nyneave healing the various villager and failing to heal Tam

- No Manetheren story in front of the whole village

 

Considering the fact that we can all agree that the 1st episode felt extremely rushed, how do people suggest they should have fit all that in? You remove the Mat and Perrin stuff and they're flat characters. You remove the women's council and you lack a lot of backround for Egwene and Nyneave, not to mention the obvsious parrallels between that ceremony and channelling saidar. Nyneave being dragged away and breaking free only happens in the 3rd episode and is necessary anyway for Moiraine to get the rest away without her interfering. Or you'd have to spend more time in the village after the attack, but again, no time.

 

A lot of the issues clearly stem from the fact that there simply wasn't time to show everything and they had to pick and choose. Do people think there should have been 2 episodes before they left Emond's Field? I read somewhere that they wanted the 1st episode to have a longer runtime but Amazon refused. Is that actually the case?

[Akragard]

3 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Considering the fact that we can all agree that the 1st episode felt extremely rushed, how do people suggest they should have fit all that in? 

It can't be fixed now, but they needed to slow down. Too much emphasis has been placed on the idea that they needed to rush to get to the meat, but they sacrificed exposition to do it. They could have had a whole episode dedicated to Emond's Field. Another to Shadar Logoth.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Akragard

[DaddyFinn]

 

 

16 minutes ago, Akragard said:

The power was focused based. There were many examples in the books of women unable to reach the One Power because of pain or some other form of overpowering distraction.  This really isn't unbelievable.

 

There is also a chance that they were in a Steddingg at thar point, as the original encounter between Perrin, Egwene and the Whitecloaks (in the books) happened in one, I believe.

 

Brandon Sanderson has mentioned in on of his Reddit posts that the Whitecloaks seem to have access to forkroot

 

 

13 minutes ago, Dreamwalker said:

I've been a member of these forums since before the series finished. Reading these threads last night, I was getting pretty frustrated with a bunch of comments making it seem like folks think anyone who actually *liked* the first few episodes must not have really been a true book fan or understand the series, lots of saying they don't believe the showrunner (an avowed fan) read the series at all. So as someone who has read the series several times but like the show so far I am feeling a bit marginalized here. We are a diverse group of fans so we will all have different opinions, don't assume someone disagreeing hasn't read the books or "doesn't get them".

 

I've also been a bit frustrated with some of the vocal fandom complaining of the show being too "feminist" (along with some of the racist complaints mentioned elsewhere). Made it feel a bit hostile here to me. WoT takes place in a world that has some very matriarchal aspects so why shouldn't the show be showing the Women's Council running things etc - it helps quickly convey some key aspects of this world for a new viewer! Nynaeve tracking Lan happens in the books too, she startles him when Moiraine notices her first! And then I saw people complaining that the show is performing best with women in their 20s as if that's proof it's not performing well with book readers.

 

So some of the complaints really just start to make me feel like there is a set of fans out there that really want to draw a line around who is really a fan of this series and are excluding a whole bunch of folks, including myself. I don't think that people intend this (I hope), but it is the way some of the discourse here reads.

 

You can not like the show, and I have some of my own complaints about it, but having a thought before you write up your opinion about how you say it, matters. Basically speak your mind about your own opinion, but don't make assumptions about who has read the books and "understood them" or is a fan. We are all fans or we wouldn't be here on this forum, and people have different interpretations of literature and art - that's what makes a forum fun or else there is no discussion just an echo chamber.

Thank you. I have almost stopped reading this forum because of the overwhelming negativity and hate towards the show. I'd say most can rationalise their opinions and why they don't like it but some are just trolls who write the same stuff as those 1/10 reviews in IMDb. The discussion is running in circles.

[MasterAblar]

7 minutes ago, Akragard said:

It can't be fixed now, but they needed to slow down. Too much emphasis has been placed on the idea that they needed to rush to get to the meat, but they sacrificed exposition to do it. They could have had a whole episode dedicated to Emond's Field. Another to Shadar Logoth.

 

I don't disagree I'm asking if people think it was feasible to spend longer in Emond's Field considering the paramaters for the show. 8 episodes a season, 1 hour episodes. A worry about the show has been that it will drag too much and bore viewers. Evidently a balance wasn't struck in episode 1, I'm just curious if that balance was even possible.

[denise_42]

I haven’t read the books yet, I am just watching the tv show and enjoying it would you recommend reading the books they look a little bit big are they worth reading and wading through.

 

[MasterAblar]

3 minutes ago, SonOfBattles82 said:

Only Lan, Moiraine and Thom are supposed to be warriors that early in the series. The Two Rivers characters are supposed to be simple country folk who have woodsman skills.

 

Early book 1 version of the characters are mostly a bunch of simple villagers with unknown potential due to them being descended from Manetheren.

 

I'm shocked that more fans of the books aren't outraged by the changes to the story/characters.

 

There's been outrage but we've known about the changes for a while now.

 

Only one of the Two River character who really fought back significantly was Perrin. Mat was on the run, Rand fired his bow while the trolloc was busy with Tam, Egwene and Nyneave drew knives and got smacked. None of that is particularly impressive.

[Akragard]

5 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

I don't disagree I'm asking if people think it was feasible to spend longer in Emond's Field considering the paramaters for the show. 8 episodes a season, 1 hour episodes. A worry about the show has been that it will drag too much and bore viewers. Evidently a balance wasn't struck in episode 1, I'm just curious if that balance was even possible.

When did the first fight happen in GoT? Shows, particularly of this kind, don't need to be pedal to the metal. And here's the thing. I hate to keep harping on GoT, but it was kinda the genre definer for TV fantasy, they modified episode length to accommodate. Make it a longer episode that ends with the battle on Bel Tine. It can be, and has been, done. The show runners just didn't learn from their predecessors.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Akragard

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

I don't disagree I'm asking if people think it was feasible to spend longer in Emond's Field considering the paramaters for the show. 8 episodes a season, 1 hour episodes. A worry about the show has been that it will drag too much and bore viewers. Evidently a balance wasn't struck in episode 1, I'm just curious if that balance was even possible.

I think the best they could have done would have been to shorten the battle slightly and add a bit more aftermath. 
 

I would like to have seen Nynaeve be unable to heal Tam and then leave to “get something” before being taken by the Trolloc. 
 

But honestly, that’s about all you have time for. You only have 8 episodes to get to the Eye/Fal Dara. That’s not much time. Especially when you have to do justice to an ensemble cast. 

[TheDreadReader]

1 minute ago, MasterAblar said:

 

I don't disagree I'm asking if people think it was feasible to spend longer in Emond's Field considering the paramaters for the show. 8 episodes a season, 1 hour episodes. A worry about the show has been that it will drag too much and bore viewers. Evidently a balance wasn't struck in episode 1, I'm just curious if that balance was even possible.

 

I don't see how it would be possible with 8 episodes per season.  People underestimate how long some of those early are in terms of screen time if you lifted them directly from the page.    Even if you cut a lot, I think that you'd be looking at least 1-2 episodes in the Two Rivers and they would be very talky non-actiony for most of them.  

 

For example, you might have two pages of screenplay (which roughly translates to two minutes of screen time) of just Mat and Rand carrying barrels into the Winespring Inn.  That might be fun from a banter perspective but it wouldn't add a ton of depth to the story.

 

Personally, I would have preferred a little more time in the village but that preference doesn't kill the show for me.

 

[SinisterDeath]

24 minutes ago, rowdie said:

I remember the test for becoming Aes Sedi was being able to channel under extreme stress.  This just doesn't seem right with respect to the books.  Now if he has an object like a the fox head medalian, then ok.

Yes, but even that has it's limits.
 

An Aes Sedai who has had their head bashed in with a sap baton, may have a very hard time trying to focusing their eyes, let alone trying to hold the one power while dealing with a literal concussion. 

 

Compound this with the pain & literal physical shock of having your hands cut off...

[MasterAblar]

3 minutes ago, denise_42 said:

I haven’t read the books yet, I am just watching the tv show and enjoying it would you recommend reading the books they look a little bit big are they worth reading and wading through.

 

 

I doubt you'll find anyone on here who wouldn't recommend reading the books ?. They can certainly be daunting by their size, but in my opinion the story truly drags you in.

 

That said if would recommend avoiding this thread since spoilers for the books and therefore the show will be flying around. This one won't have spoilers:

 

https://dragonmount.com/forums/topic/110377-season-1-discussion-no-book-spoilers/

[DaddyFinn]

Amazon makes the final decisions about episode lengths and counts. Rafe has said he wanted a 2 hour pilot episode and 10 per season.

[MasterAblar]

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I think the best they could have done would have been to shorten the battle slightly and add a bit more aftermath. 
 

I would like to have seen Nynaeve be unable to heal Tam and then leave to “get something” before being taken by the Trolloc. 
 

But honestly, that’s about all you have time for. You only have 8 episodes to get to the Eye/Fal Dara. That’s not much time. Especially when you have to do justice to an ensemble cast. 

 

Agreed I think the battle did drag a little too long. Maybe they just really wanted to showcase the One Power with Moiraine.

[Akragard]

Just now, DaddyFinn said:

Amazon makes the final decisions about episode lengths and counts. Rafe has said he wanted a 2 hour pilot episode and 10 per season.

Well, then Amazon shot themselves in the foot. I still have questions about some of the decisions, but if that's true, then ultimately the pacing will fall at Amazon's feet.

[DaddyFinn]

1 minute ago, Akragard said:

Well, then Amazon shot themselves in the foot. I still have questions about some of the decisions, but if that's true, then ultimately the pacing will fall at Amazon's feet.

I really hope we will get at least 10 episodes by third season. Second season has 8 I think.

[Akragard]

1 minute ago, DaddyFinn said:

I really hope we will get at least 10 episodes by third season. Second season has 8 I think.

I hope it goes to three. I'm willing to turn a blind eye to a lot of the story stuff. I really am. A lot of it is just the way media is now. I can rail against the removal of strong, positive male characters until my lips fall off, but it's not going to change in the current climate.

 

My biggest gripe has and will continue to be the production value surrounding, specifically, CGI and dialogue.

 

[AusLeviathan]

I think the question is simple.

 

Was it worth it to get an expanded Logain subplot in the middle of the season at the cost of rushing the first episode?

 

If they'd cut the Logain subplot (which presumably takes up a large chunk of the next two episodes) to what it was in the books (one scene with Logain seen at a far distance so no need to cast a permanent actor) then they'd have been able to extend the time spent in the Two Rivers.

Edited November 21, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[rowdie]

I absolutely love the trollocks and the power weaving.   Spot On!!

 

Pacing is way too fast, Amazon will regret it.

 

Casting sucks.  Moraine and Rand are good the rest is not good.  Mats the worst.

[Akragard]

3 minutes ago, SonOfBattles82 said:

I am sad and wish the show had never been made because this is the only screen adaptation we will ever get. So much wrong with everything about it to the point it makes me angry to watch so I'll stick to my umpteenth reread.

I disagree. I'm not entirely happy with it, but as the saying goes, "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take."

 

I've waited decades for this series to transition to the silver screen, more so after GoT paved the way and I'm happy we got a shot. I really hope they can clean up the glaring issues and turn the ship around.

[Elder_Haman]

3 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

Was it worth it to get an expanded Logain subplot in the middle of the season at the cost of rushing the first episode?

We will find out. I think it makes sense from a world building standpoint. But it’s all in the execution. 

[MasterAblar]

36 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

I think the question is simple.

 

Was it worth it to get an expanded Logain subplot in the middle of the season at the cost of rushing the first episode?

 

If they'd cut the Logain subplot (which presumably takes up a large chunk of the next two episodes) to what it was in the books (one scene with Logain seen at a far distance so no need to cast a permanent actor) then they'd have been able to extend the time spent in the Two Rivers.

 

Based on my name I'm obligated to say yes its worth it ?.

 

But we'll find out soon enough. I think that's why it's important to wait for the whole season to be out to really cast judgment on the series.

Edited November 21, 2021 by MasterAblar

[DaddyFinn]

I'm excited for episode 6. IIRC Brandon said that's the best one and also the few who have seen 1-6 have praised it. Maybe it's the one told completely from Moiraine's POV? 

[Agitel]

3 minutes ago, SonOfBattles82 said:

 

I can respect this but they have already ruined it for me. Should have been made by Benioff and Weiss on HBO.

 

Please... please keep D&D far, far away from WOT. And Star Sars. Really, let's just send them to the Mars.

[MasterAblar]

16 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

Please... please keep D&D far, far away from WOT. And Star Sars. Really, let's just send them to the Mars.

 

 

*Covid vibes intensify*

Edited November 21, 2021 by MasterAblar