tv show spoilers S1E7: The Dark Along the Ways

[DigificWriter]

 

3 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Maybe you should have done the same. Or at least gone a bit further than the Great Hunt. Maybe you'd understand why others feel so differently.

 

How, pray tell, does the amount of novels I've read have anything whatsoever to do with the fact that a large number of hardcore book fans who either contribute to this website, post WoT content on YouTube, or host podcasts covering the novels are enjoying the TV adaptation?

[Gothic Flame]

Just now, Elder_Haman said:

 

Four minutes apart. 

Yes..when I posted if "your a fan" did you think I meant me? 

[Elder_Haman]

3 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

 

 

"types of changes" vs. "precise scene"? What is the contradiction you think you've found?

 

[Gothic Flame]

1 minute ago, DigificWriter said:

 

 

How, pray tell, does the amount of novels I've read have anything whatsoever to do with the fact that a large number of hardcore book fans who either contribute to this website, post WoT content on YouTube, or host podcasts covering the novels are enjoying the TV adaptation?

Mayve you should be more familiar with the source material if your going to defend the show.

[Yojimbo]

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

"types of changes" vs. "precise scene"? What is the contradiction you think you've found?

 

Them having casual sex in the inn is a "type of change" in that there are many many other examples of changes made that change the tonality of the story.   

[KakitaOCU]

39 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Nope.  As in; he was a blade master that kept up archery and staff skills.  Worked a farm so he's in shape.

 

I taught MA for ten years (more or less).  I stopped teaching and participating 14 years ago.  If I put on my pads, I can still fight.  

 

My thinking is a blade master (even one who doesn't take his sword out of the storage chest) still knows which is the pointy end.

You stopped doing any forms, sparring and activity at all regarding those skills 14 years ago?

No, you remember how to fight, you know what you're supposed to do, but you'd be slow, sloppy, unpracticed and it would show.

Kind of like how Tam got multiple strikes in but was just a touch off and didn't finish the job.  

Sorry, if you really haven't practiced for 14 years you'd maybe be fine against someone untrained, but you're not who you were 14 years ago or anywhere close to it if you actually stopped.

I'm saying this as someone who hasn't seriously held a sword in 11 years and I know exactly how rusty and out of practice I am.

[KakitaOCU]

2 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Mayve you should be more familiar with the source material if your going to defend the show.

Maybe don't gatekeep?  Thanks.

This is up there with the people saying you can't be a fan of Marvel if you only watch the movies.

[Gothic Flame]

1 minute ago, KakitaOCU said:

Maybe don't gatekeep?  Thanks.

This is up there with the people saying you can't be a fan of Marvel if you only watch the movies.

Fans of the Shannara books  would like a word with you.

[DigificWriter]

5 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Mayve you should be more familiar with the source material if your going to defend the show.

 

And maybe you should check your arrogance at the door.

 

All of the hardcore book fans I've chosen to engage with online are, for the most part, enjoying the show. That has absolutely nothing to do with my personal level of familiarity with the novels.

[KakitaOCU]

5 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Fans of the Shannara books  would like a word with you.

Good for them?  I liked Season 1, the show failed because it was never a story that would sit well on one group of protagonists, specially with the lack of character development or personality Brooks shows in his works.

Exactly how does that refute my point that you are gatekeeping?  

Sorry, you don't get to tell someone they're "Not a real fan" because they enjoy one medium but not another.  Digific and others are "real fans" of WoT because they enjoy the story being told and are engaged.  Not because they chose one medium over another.  Just like people who love the Marvel movies are real fans without having read the comics for decades.  Just like people who loved Jackson's LotR are real fans without having read Tolkien directly.

I'm sorry they don't live up to whatever ideal you think you're holding, but you don't get to tell them they're not welcome or unable to participate.

Edit: And, as Digific right points out, your attempted gatekeeping has nothing to do with the point they made.

Edited December 20, 2021 by KakitaOCU

[Elder_Haman]

20 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Yes..when I posted if "your a fan" did you think I meant me? 

Was I supposed to take it some other way? Or are you just putting words in the mouths of fans in general?

 

I'm a huge fan of the books. I also enjoy the show, though there are aspects of it I wish they had chosen to do differently. 

[Elder_Haman]

17 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

Them having casual sex in the inn is a "type of change" in that there are many many other examples of changes made that change the tonality of the story.   

Okay. So what's your point exactly?

I expected them to change the story to make the Emond's Field kids more 'worldly' and less sheltered than they were in the books. I expected that Rand and Egwene would probably have a more physical, less juvenile relationship than they did in EotW. I did not accurately predict how that relationship would be depicted.

 

No one is disputing that they've changed the sexual mores of Emond's Field. No one is claiming that there aren't other changes that alter the tone of the book. The fact that these things are true, however, does not mean that the show didn't get lots of other things right. 

[RhienneAgain]

2 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Rafe is adapting WoT. Not fixing it or flexing with his writing skills.

I don't know...where do you draw the line between 'adapting' and 'altering'? I would say 'adapting' means making the changes necessary for the switch between mediums.

 

I think we're beginning to get into more subjective territory when we look at the treatment of Lan. Is it adapting is Rafe has completely changed Lan's personality because he felt like it? Is it adapting if Rafe completely changed Lan because he felt Lan's version of masculinity was 'wrong' or 'unpalatable to current social norms'?

 

[Deviations]

27 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

You stopped doing any forms, sparring and activity at all regarding those skills 14 years ago?

No, you remember how to fight, you know what you're supposed to do, but you'd be slow, sloppy, unpracticed and it would show.

Kind of like how Tam got multiple strikes in but was just a touch off and didn't finish the job.  

Sorry, if you really haven't practiced for 14 years you'd maybe be fine against someone untrained, but you're not who you were 14 years ago or anywhere close to it if you actually stopped.

I'm saying this as someone who hasn't seriously held a sword in 11 years and I know exactly how rusty and out of practice I am.

Jordan's version - the first contact with a trolloc on Winternight:

 

"Even as the kettle struck, Tam's sword flashed.  The roar abruptly became a gurgle and the huge shape toppled back."

 

Doesn't seem too rusty.

 

I like my heroes to be heroes.  This is 'high fantasy'. I'm fine with pregnant Tigraine kicking seven kinds of dog crap out of those soldiers.  It fits.  Tam kicking some trolloc in ep1 would have fit.  It was the first point Rand looked at his father and thought maybe he didn't know everything about him......

 

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Deviations

[DigificWriter]

@RhienneAgain There is no right or wrong way to adapt something.

 

An adaptation that changes everything about its source material other than the names of the characters and the basic overall beats of the story it's adapting is just as valid as an adaptation that doesn't change anything except the way it visualizes sets, costumes, and props relative to how these things were depicted in the source material.

[flinn]

8 minutes ago, RhienneAgain said:

I don't know...where do you draw the line between 'adapting' and 'altering'? I would say 'adapting' means making the changes necessary for the switch between mediums.

 

I think we're beginning to get into more subjective territory when we look at the treatment of Lan. Is it adapting is Rafe has completely changed Lan's personality because he felt like it? Is it adapting if Rafe completely changed Lan because he felt Lan's version of masculinity was 'wrong' or 'unpalatable to current social norms'?

 

 As much as I dont like the sensitive version of Lan, it is the other ways they are killing him that is driving me crazy. At least LET him be a warder and not some Aes Sedai errand boy.

 

 Just since the ways things that have bothered the F out of me...

 

 Moiraine walks into the ways alone.. no freaking way would a warder let their Aes Sedai walk into a place like the ways first Moiraine would know Lan would have a shit fit if she even attempted to go in first.

 

  Nynaeve scouting in front while Lan is making stupid bets with Moiraine in the middle.

 

 Lan asleep in the ways apparently, definitely not on the lookout for, you know, attacks by something like trollocs, machin shin, or any thing possibly lurking in the ways they are unfamiliar with...

 

 Lan not sensing the trolloc when it attacked.. Nope, Egwene (for some ridiculous reason) senses it first and is the first to jump up and respond. Lan is awakened by the noise, casually looks around to see where he is, gropes around for his sword, finally decides to get out of his nappy, Asks Moraine if she can spare a weave to warm up his night clothes, and then looks around confused and disoriented.

 

 that is just the "ways" I could seriously write pages of how they have ignored the entire reason of warders in just the first 7 episodes. AND NONE OF THOSE CHANGES MAKES THE SHOW BETTER.

 

 Let's see..

 

 Moiraine opens the ways.. Lan ducks in first to check it out while Moiraine finishes her little speech.

 

 Lan is out front "scouting".

 

Lan standing guard over the sleeping EF4 and Moiraine.

 

Lan shouts "Trolloc" and races across the "island" when Rand jumps up and blasts the trolloc.

 

 

 Not one of those would have added money, time, confusion to the shoot, it would have only made Lan look like he was competent, instead of the drooling idiot they have turned him into on the show.

 

 Consider Lan a secret service agent guarding the President. He would be a disgrace and fired for his lax protection.

[CaddySedai]

Moderator Note: Simmer down people. We are trending close to getting personal in responses here. Lets try to stay cordial. ?

[JaimAybara]

22 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Jordan's version - the first contact with a trolloc on Winternight:

 

"Even as the kettle struck, Tam's sword flashed.  The roar abruptly became a gurgle and the huge shape toppled back."

 

Doesn't seem too rusty.

This is what I don’t understand. The book clearly depicts Tam as competent and more along the lines of having hidden skills not rusty ones. Then they intentionally nerf him in the show. People defend this choice and they are free to, but when I critique the likelihood of a woman giving birth and merking 5 or 6 guys while doing so, the same ones arguing Tam should be all of these new things defend the choice of the maiden. It’s inconsistent argumentation to me. If people are going to bend over backwards to explain why a blademaster now sucks when he didn’t in the book, while also bending over backwards to defend a pregnant woman absolutely slaying it, I question this inconsistency. Not the fact that she should or shouldn’t be badass because that scene is my favorite in the entire season. Simply the logic being used To reach both of these places simultaneously. So for those saying Tam wasn’t as he should be. Yes, I agree. For those saying, Tigraine is as she should be, yes I agree. For those that say Tam should be weak and Tigraine where she is, I respectfully disagree. 

Edited December 20, 2021 by JaimAybara
Spelling

[dwn]

2 hours ago, Deviations said:

Yet in the final battles, he fights well enough for Lan to say something like - yes you earned the heron mark...

By AMoL Tam had been practicing his swordwork again (and training others) for over a year.

[flinn]

2 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

This is what I don’t understand. The book clearly depicts Tam as competent and more along the lines of having hidden skills not rusty ones. Then they intentionally nerf him in the show. People defend this choice and they are free to, but when I critique the likelihood of a woman giving birth and merking 5 or 6 guys while doing so, the same ones arguing Tam should be all of these new things defend the choice of the maiden. It’s inconsistent argumentation to me. If people are going to bend over backwards to explain why a blademaster now sucks when he didn’t in the book, while also bending over backwards to defend a pregnant woman absolutely slaying it, I question this inconsistency. Not the fact that she should or shouldn’t be badass because that scene is my favorite in the entire season. Simply the logic being used To reach both of these places simultaneously. So for those saying Tam wasn’t as he should be. Yes, I agree. For those saying, Tigraine is as she should be, yes I agree. For those that say Tam should be weak and a Tigraine where she is, I respectfully disagree. 

 

 

 The really messed up part of all this is, there is actually a scene from the books that even deals with this...

 

 When Perrin meets Faile's mother she explains how... if someone has to lessen themselves so others around them can appear to be better, then they will end up resenting the F out of it and problems come. You need to be strong enough to let other people be as strong as they can be.

 

 Yet there is no doubt, in the tv show, they are nerfing powerful men and taking scenes from them to give to the women to make the women appear stronger. 

 

 If they were decent writers, they could buff the women without nerfing the men and still pull it all off.

[Xen]

Something that bugs me is people who have not even watched the episode who are some of the most prolific posters in threads about those episodes (whether it was DojoToad in previous threads or Gothic Flame here, who admitted earlier to stopping at episode 3).

 

Shouldn't a bare minimum for interacting in a thread about that episode be... having watched it?

 

It's just so weird to have folks who are not watching trying so desperately to convince people that the show is 'bad' when it so clearly is not.  I loved this episode; I have enjoyed most of them, in fact (with some issues, of course...)

 

I am also one of those people who would reread the *entire series* every time a new book came out.  Imposing your own personal opinion and saying that universally book fans must hate the show, especially when you are not even watching, is just so presumptuous.

[DaddyFinn]

13 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

This is what I don’t understand. The book clearly depicts Tam as competent and more along the lines of having hidden skills not rusty ones. Then they intentionally nerf him in the show. People defend this choice and they are free to, but when I critique the likelihood of a woman giving birth and merking 5 or 6 guys while doing so, the same ones arguing Tam should be all of these new things defend the choice of the maiden. It’s inconsistent argumentation to me. If people are going to bend over backwards to explain why a blademaster now sucks when he didn’t in the book, while also bending over backwards to defend a pregnant woman absolutely slaying it, I question this inconsistency. Not the fact that she should or shouldn’t be badass because that scene is my favorite in the entire season. Simply the logic being used To reach both of these places simultaneously. So for those saying Tam wasn’t as he should be. Yes, I agree. For those saying, Tigraine is as she should be, yes I agree. For those that say Tam should be weak and a Tigraine where she is, I respectfully disagree. 

I don't bend by back to anyone. Tigraine was awesome and Tam was awesome in his own way. He was much more "incompetent" than in the books but I don't care.

[notpropaganda73]

17 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

This is what I don’t understand. The book clearly depicts Tam as competent and more along the lines of having hidden skills not rusty ones. Then they intentionally nerf him in the show. People defend this choice and they are free to, but when I critique the likelihood of a woman giving birth and merking 5 or 6 guys while doing so, the same ones arguing Tam should be all of these new things defend the choice of the maiden. It’s inconsistent argumentation to me. If people are going to bend over backwards to explain why a blademaster now sucks when he didn’t in the book, while also bending over backwards to defend a pregnant woman absolutely slaying it, I question this inconsistency. Not the fact that she should or shouldn’t be badass because that scene is my favorite in the entire season. Simply the logic being used To reach both of these places simultaneously. So for those saying Tam wasn’t as he should be. Yes, I agree. For those saying, Tigraine is as she should be, yes I agree. For those that say Tam should be weak and Tigraine where she is, I respectfully disagree. 

 

 

I can't remember where I talked about the Tam scene before, but I honestly think they were trying to show him as a skilled swordsman but that the Trolloc was too large/wild at close quarters. I think they failed with the scene, and should have included more Trollocs in that attack to show Tam's skill before numbers overwhelmed him and caused the injury. But I don't think the show were thinking "let's reduce Tam's skill". When you watch that scene, they make a big deal of showing the heron and then zooming in as he expertly slashes at the Trolloc. It says to me that they wanted to focus on the sword and that Tam's skill with it subsequently means the sword is important. It didn't work, but I think that's what they were going for. 

 

They just did a bad job of showing what they were trying to show with Tam (imo), whereas they did a successful job of showing what they wanted with Tigraine. 

[Yojimbo]

41 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Okay. So what's your point exactly?

I expected them to change the story to make the Emond's Field kids more 'worldly' and less sheltered than they were in the books. I expected that Rand and Egwene would probably have a more physical, less juvenile relationship than they did in EotW. I did not accurately predict how that relationship would be depicted.

 

No one is disputing that they've changed the sexual mores of Emond's Field. No one is claiming that there aren't other changes that alter the tone of the book. The fact that these things are true, however, does not mean that the show didn't get lots of other things right. 

My point is that you say you were "baffled" how we could not expect these types of wholesale changes, and yet when I pointed out the example of Rand and Egs having casual sex you said you weren't expecting that.  So how then could you be baffled?     But whatever, we've established that you are ok with it, so no sense arguing over it.   

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

My point is that you say you were "baffled" how we could not expect these types of wholesale changes, and yet when I pointed out the example of Rand and Egs having casual sex you said you weren't expecting that.

There is no contradiction here. Try as hard as you may to find one.