tv show spoilers S1E6: The Flame of Tar Valon

[GreymanA]

So far I am meh with this show. This episode hit the worst for me.  I get changes have to occur to bring the books to manageable sizes and to appeal to both WoT fans and the general viewership, however small and important changes irk me, like why no stoles? I get it, they are all sitting in colored dresses, but especially the Amyrlin should have had her striped stoles and the hems on her dress also striped with the Ajah colors.

 

Also, Rand isn't hiding that sword, how can not a single person have noticed that before, especially Lan?! In this episode the cleanliness of everything is ok, as the Tower is always described as immaculate except for the storage areas.

 

Lastly, I could not ever see Lan abandoning Mandarb. Even Bela made it through! I hope Raf and crew actually read these pages and make some changes for the second season. Two more episodes, I hope we get some cool stuff nxt.

 

Rune out.

Edited December 10, 2021 by GreymanA
tagline addition

[MasterAblar]

21 minutes ago, WheelofJuke said:

Respectfully disagree 100%. It's poorly made television that misses the mark and makes an unwatchable hash of the source material. I am by no means a nitpicker or 1-for-1 adaptation idealist. If anything, I'm for streamlining of the source material. But it seems like they chose to keep words but not concepts. 

That’s totally fine you have a right to your own opinion and perspective on the show. I’m simply saying that so far the show has hardly been a failure when you take overall audience reactions. And ultimately that’s what’s gonna matter.

 

I would also strongly advise people to listen to Loial and stop being hasty. Judging the entire show without seeing the entire season narrative it is trying to build is being unfair in my opinion. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by MasterAblar

[ManetherenTaveren]

4 minutes ago, GreymanA said:

Lastly, I could not ever see Lan abandoning Mandarb. Even Bela made it through!

Ahh! That's the real reason Mat stayed behind! Someone had to tend the horses!

[Vambram]

8 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

I would also strongly advise people to listen to Loial and stop being hasty. Judging the entire show without seeing the entire season narrative it is trying to build is being unfair in my opinion

 

Although I have not been completely satisfied with any of the episodes, I still overall like the 6 episodes. But, if episodes 7 & 8 don't stick the landing and have the climatic ending similar to what Robert Jordan wrote, then I really don't believe that I will give a damn about season 2. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by GanoesParan

[Gothic Flame]

14 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Judging the entire show without seeing the entire season narrative it is trying to build is being unfair in my opinion. 

You think that the last two episodes will make any difference at this point? I mean if nothing else the writing and directing has been, shall we say "consistent" enough.

[henfen]

Hey look - it's Basel Gill!!  Wonder what the hell he is doing in Tar Valon?  Opening a new inn??

 

Liandrin may have a boyfriend - or more likely a male Darkfriend.  But really, would Moiraine let something that serious pass.  Liandrin/Elaida hates men.  I wish the writers would stop being so uncreatively off canon.  Original content is fine, just don't make it rubbish.

 

Siuan "exiles" Moiraine, punishing her with getting the freedom to continue to do what she was already doing for 20 years, without having to answer to anyone.  Is this a foreshadowing of the beginning of Siuan's upcoming storyline?  I did like the scene of the Aes Sedai turning their backs on her - but Siuan's sentence is so easy to see through, that it's obviously not really a punishment.  Hard to believe the Hall would not see right through this.  Being exiled to a farm, however, would have been more believable. 

 

Siuan and Moiraine are in love with each other (at least Siuan), and care more about sexy time than checking in about what they've focused everything on for the last 20 years.  It just felt real cheap.  Couldn't we have just gotten a conversation about them having been pillowfriends 20 years ago?  Why not show some lesbian sex scenes between the Reds while we're at it?  It does a disservice to the series.  Maybe they're bi, or pansexual, since we know they both like men in the books.  I'd love some good queer representation - not cuddling bisexual warders, or made for TV one-liners just for the sake of throwing some sex into a largely asexual book.  It's just not quality.

 

Siuan rows a boat with a pole from Tear to Tar Valon.  LOL!  Bye Dad, good luck now that you literally have nothing left!  Hope you can untangle your net.  They obviously rushed the writing of this series beyond redemption.  I almost feel bad for Rafe, except that he made such big bucks off it.

 

Loial looks like the Burger King, and it's still not clear at all why he is there.  Yes, he had better play a role in the next episode in the Ways.  I can't get over his clunky goofy appearance.  He's 3 inches taller than Rand instead of 3 feet.  Just a large person, not ogre-like (and certainly nothing close to being mistaken for even a puny Trolloc).  He looks like he belongs in The Neverending Story from the 80s (Rockbiter's little brother).  Just.... wtf.

 

The possibility of a "many headed Dragon" - and how exactly did Lews Therin reincarnate into multiple people in the same lifetime?  Adding this nonsense just convolutes what's already confusing.

 

I'll keep watching.  Sorta like watching a trainwreck.  I do sincerely hope that non-readers are enjoying it.  Episode 4 was the only one I didn't wish would hurry up and end before making it worse.

[TheDreadReader]

15 minutes ago, ManetherenTaveren said:

Ahh! That's the real reason Mat stayed behind! Someone had to tend the horses!

 

"steal the horses"

 

[themann1086]

1 minute ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

"steal the horses"

 

He's finally a horse trader WITH horses!

[derecho]

4 minutes ago, henfen said:

Siuan rows a boat with a pole from Tear to Tar Valon.  LOL!  Bye Dad, good luck now that you literally have nothing left!  Hope you can untangle your net.  They obviously rushed the writing of this series beyond redemption.  I almost feel bad for Rafe, except that he made such big bucks off it.

 

Just wanted to say on this point I think you're being unfair. The point of the scene was to show that Siuan was leaving her father and that she was strong enough to do this at a young age, not to demonstrate the logistics of river travel or how exactly Siuan got to the White Tower. Also, her father obviously views Siuan's journey as important enough (and also that she's in danger because of the Dragon's Fang) to basically say don't worry about me I'll figure it out. Siuan herself in that scene seems to believe that her father won't be able to make it, but that's sorta the point.

[KakitaOCU]

Thoughts on Episode 6.
 

Enjoyed Siuan's backstory.
 

Loved that Siuan played the hall.  Makes a show of punishing Moraine but then never forces the question again.
 

Even if a bit rushed the healing was cool, loved that the taint of Shadar Logoth was shown almost like a physical thing and that it tried to latch onto Moraine as well.
 

Aes Sedai trickiness "I have watchers, I have it on good authority they're alive."  We also start the bad habit of this series that dooms people.  Refusal to communicate and share.
 

A permanent Gateway Ter'Angreal is interesting and something I'm honestly suprised wasn't in the books.
 

I really appreciate that Siuan and Moraine's relationship wasn't relegated to "Silly things you do as girls."  Though I'm curious if and how it will affect the later relationships for both of them.  Though admittedly neither relationship is SUPER important to things.
 

Tossed in the "Kill them myself before I let the DO have them."  Not sure if it's useful here as a casual threat instead of a direct threat to them.
 

Siuan sees the Eye, interesting, definately gives more credence to them going.  Unfortunately I suspect Ishamael.
 

Exile as a ploy to get her out, very nice and very Siuan.
 

Like that Moraine went to Loial for help, nice shift.
 

Letting Egwene see the Amyrlin Seat.  Nice touch.  And we get Siuan meeting people.  I would have liked Nynaeve lashing in anger and Siuan laughing while slamming her back against a wall, but I think I respect her more for just talking them down on her pure presence.
 

Really love the Hall of the Tower, very solid set piece.
 

Nice to set up the Oath Rod, but the part of me that knows what that thing does hates it.  I would have prefered a flashback to Moraine and Siuan taking the oaths the first time.  The single finger touching Moraine, showing connection and support in a hidden way was lovely.
 

I think they did the exile well, was curious how they'd manage it when we know it's what Moraine and Siuan need to happen, but the crushed looks on Maigan and Alanna sell it.
 

Dislike dropping the horses, what the heck, we just send Aldieb and Mandarb and Bella off to wander?

The Ways are cool looking but I still hate the new look, no door, no opening, no closed passage.  

Didn't think about claiming the Ways as the Dark One's prison, it makes sense and new audiences might be annoyed by an extra "They're just evil, who knows." that the books take.  Making it be power based to open, I have to wonder if that means if a certain sister will travel with Perrin and co when we get to book 4 from the get go instead of meeting him there.
 

Wish her answer to "What happens to the ones who are not the dragon?"  had been "I cannot say."  with the implication that she doesn't know but as a call back to her refusal to Siuan.
 

No idea what Mat not going means, looking forward to that explanation!
 

Solid episode, ready for the next one and the last after that.

[DermidAjala]

48 minutes ago, GanoesParan said:

But, if episodes 7 & 8 don't stick the landing and have the climatic ending similar to what Robert Jordan wrote,

 

I have to say the number 1 thing I'd be happy with them changing is the ending to TEOTW haha. It's a massive mess and clearly the weakest of any of the books. It does need to feel properly climactic though - I'll be disappointed if they don't show the levels of ability we're about to start talking about because it really needs to convey that the dragon can actually tear the world apart both literally and figuratively.

 

--

 

On another note and as an outside shot on Liandrin's friend. I'm wondering if it could be Taim. I feel there's very little point making him an is he or isn't he dodgy type character.

Edited December 10, 2021 by DermidAjala

[KakitaOCU]

27 minutes ago, henfen said:

Liandrin may have a boyfriend - or more likely a male Darkfriend.  But really, would Moiraine let something that serious pass.  Liandrin/Elaida hates men.  I wish the writers would stop being so uncreatively off canon.  Original content is fine, just don't make it rubbish.

 

If Moraine knew it was a DF she'd have done something.  She clearly doesn't think Liandrin is evil, just unlikeable.  The suggestion there is she has a man she sees secretly and the reds would not like that if they knew.  It might very well be a DF contact, but that's not something Moraine knows at this point.  

 

27 minutes ago, henfen said:

Siuan "exiles" Moiraine, punishing her with getting the freedom to continue to do what she was already doing for 20 years, without having to answer to anyone.  Is this a foreshadowing of the beginning of Siuan's upcoming storyline?  I did like the scene of the Aes Sedai turning their backs on her - but Siuan's sentence is so easy to see through, that it's obviously not really a punishment.  Hard to believe the Hall would not see right through this.  Being exiled to a farm, however, would have been more believable. 

 

No, we see through it because we know the plot and what's going on.  Most sisters see Tar Valon as home and never want to leave.  Why would anyone want to leave the best city in the world where they have unlimited money and power and authority?  The idea is unthinkable and so they don't see through the deception.  You can see Alanna's tears and Maigan's anger over it.  They see it as a death sentence essentially.

 

27 minutes ago, henfen said:

Siuan and Moiraine are in love with each other (at least Siuan), and care more about sexy time than checking in about what they've focused everything on for the last 20 years.  It just felt real cheap.  Couldn't we have just gotten a conversation about them having been pillowfriends 20 years ago?  Why not show some lesbian sex scenes between the Reds while we're at it?  It does a disservice to the series.  Maybe they're bi, or pansexual, since we know they both like men in the books.  I'd love some good queer representation - not cuddling bisexual warders, or made for TV one-liners just for the sake of throwing some sex into a largely asexual book.  It's just not quality.

 

They don't care more about sexy time, they took a moment to be together and then talked.  Tell you what, disappear from your spouse for 2 years and tell me how it goes when you get back.  Also, we're clearly moving away from the very garbage take of "Gay is okay as an experiment as kids, but then you grow out of it."  It's one thing RJ did that never sat well with me.  I fail to see what exactly is wrong with them staying close and being in love with each other.  

Then again, you're slipping in jabs at Maksim and Ihvon for no reason so I think I can read where that goes.  Love the idea that you want good LGBT+ representation but the idea that it's just part of who they are and not really dwelled on is somehow bad.

 

27 minutes ago, henfen said:

The possibility of a "many headed Dragon" - and how exactly did Lews Therin reincarnate into multiple people in the same lifetime?  Adding this nonsense just convolutes what's already confusing.

He didn't, it's yet another misunderstanding of the prophecy.  Translations of the Prophecy are clearly going to latch onto the idea that different people do different things (The Black Smith isn't Rand, neither is the Raven).  Even Min flat out says they are doomed to fail without each other.  In a way, the gruop was the Chosen one even if only one of them happens to be LTT specifically.

[Skipp]

10 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Dislike dropping the horses, what the heck, we just send Aldieb and Mandarb and Bella off to wander?

The Ways are cool looking but I still hate the new look, no door, no opening, no closed passage.  

Didn't think about claiming the Ways as the Dark One's prison, it makes sense and new audiences might be annoyed by an extra "They're just evil, who knows." that the books take.  Making it be power based to open, I have to wonder if that means if a certain sister will travel with Perrin and co when we get to book 4 from the get go instead of meeting him there.
 

Wish her answer to "What happens to the ones who are not the dragon?"  had been "I cannot say."  with the implication that she doesn't know but as a call back to her refusal to Siuan.
 

 

Loved everything you said and it echo's alot of my thoughts.  As for them getting rid of the horses it does seem a bit odd but I am thinking it is do to logistical  reasons in terms of filming the horses on what is likely to be a heavy CGI set.  I do hope we get more about the ways themselves and hopefully an explanation about why the power was needed to open this one and that it is possible to open it without the power.  This is certainly one of the lore changes I am very iffy on.

[Deviations]

14 hours ago, phoenixtrinity said:

Edit to clarify: I understand there are many reasons people don't like the show, and I respect that. I am mainly feeling a bit overwhelmed by the number of comments about the little things.

I think folks on both sides of the argument are feeling bombarded by the other side.  Things I feel are big departures are discounted or I'm told they are really the same as what's in the books, or I'm told they help with character development in a shorted format.  Little things that paint a broader picture of tone are discounted as 'pedantic'.

[phoenixtrinity]

Quote

Trollocs and fades must have channelers with them to use the ways, now? Horses couldn't survive? Good grief.

 

I didn't mind the channeling change as I'm curious to see where they take it, but I admit the situation with the horses was weird. That is, I can think of a couple reasons they may have switched the Ways to use channeling, but I can't think of a single in-world reason to not take the horses. I am guessing the horses might have been too challenging to CGI around? Not sure on that one.

[JJLXL]

Spoiler

They totally gutted "The Ways".  The look of the gate itself is totally wrong.  The way to open them is totally wrong. The inside can be left to interpretation, as they became corrupted, fine.  I guess the trollocs had a channeler with them at the gate near Two Rivers? Unless Fades channel now?  They were supposed to be a thing for the Ogiers.  Grown by them in fact!  They are supposed to look like living things and almost come alive when activated. How are Ogier supposed to use them if you need to channel to open them?  Very disappointed with the decisions regarding the Ways.  I hope we find out some concrete answers as to why they're not for the Ogier anymore.  Though I doubt it.  Was initially disappointed with Loil, but I get why they needed to make him this way.  He'd have blown the budget on CGI.  My last gripe with Loil are his hands.  He has very stiff looking doll hands.  Dial back the hand make-up next season and give him back some dexterity.

 

Another gripe, Moiraine said she didn't know Nyn could channel. This is either a lie and they changed Moiraine to Black ajah, or Aes Sedai cannot sense channeling in other women.  Being that nobody in the throne room refuted this, I would say Aes Sedai cannot sense the ability to channel in other women.  Very odd. I don't like this decision and I think it will come back to bite them later.

 

There was another scene where Moiraine arguably lied.  Egwene said "Rand and Mat, are they...?"  Moiraine interrupted, "I have people watching for their arrival..."  We can argue semantics but that is a lie.  They already arrived and she knew it.  If she said "I had people watching for their arrival...", that would simply be a lie of omission, which is fine by the lore.  They need to be more careful with wording regarding Aes Sedai.  It's been pretty good so far.

 

I'm being nit-picky, I know.  But we're laying the ground work this season.  Things have to be VERY specific.

 

I'm still on the fence.  Do I actually like the show or am I forcing myself to like it because I'm so invested in the books.  There is SOOO much hack and slash of plot line so far.  I understand there had to be, but man...way too much so far.   So, so rushed. 

 

Other questions I had.  Does this show make sense to people who haven't read anything from the books?  Do the non-readers feel truly invested in the characters?  So much character building was slashed.

 

There are book spoilers intertwined with tv show spoilers, so I hid the whole thing. 

[KakitaOCU]

12 minutes ago, Skipp said:

 

Loved everything you said and it echo's alot of my thoughts.  As for them getting rid of the horses it does seem a bit odd but I am thinking it is do to logistical  reasons in terms of filming the horses on what is likely to be a heavy CGI set.  I do hope we get more about the ways themselves and hopefully an explanation about why the power was needed to open this one and that it is possible to open it without the power.  This is certainly one of the lore changes I am very iffy on.

Oh, I definitely understand the logistics of horses on green screen.  I just dislike losing the three unique Horses.  I just have to think The named Horses won't be a big thing in the series.  And that affects the plot not at all other than a joke when Faile shows up, but I'm a horse person, so sad to see them go.  ?

I assume we'll get a lot of the ways since the next time is specifically The Dark Along the Ways as I recall.

[derecho]

My thoughts on the episode.

 

Loved the prologue. I think Siuan's father had an incredible performance, and it shows Siuan's strength both in character and as a channeler. The scene where she's revealed to be the Amyrlin Seat really paid off the prologue setup imo.

 

I liked that we got to see Moiraines craftiness at handling the Emond's Field folk. That seemed very in character for her and for a Blue who is trying to achieve her own goals but has to deal with these stubborn folk.

 

Moiraine healing Mat is something I'm sorta withholding judgment on. It obviously changes numerous plot points in the book, but many of them can still actually happen. For instance, Nynaeve and Egwene can still go from Fal Dara to the tower next season, just sans Mat and Siuan. The show didn't say what Moiraine did with the dagger, so there's still a good change Fain can steal it (and I assume he must, it's really important to his character). Perhaps Mat still needs to be further healed? And maybe his memory will have holes in it that we haven't gotten to see yet? With the (likely) departure of Mat from the rest of the season we'll just have to wait.

 

I think the romance between Moiraine and Siuan is totally fine with me and makes sense. If they've been friends for decades and also are in a women-only society, seems perfectly reasonable that they could/would get romantically involved, particularly when they can only confide in each other about this incredibly stressful and burdensome journey they are both on. I don't know if this precludes future romances (Thom & Gareth) but I suppose thats a WAFO. I don't see why is has to though.

 

I think it's interesting that Moiraine and the Aes Sedai apparently are just straight up wrong about what the EotW actually is. The unreliable narrator aspect to Moiraine is neat, and it is not unreasonable to me that a world 3000 years after the breaking would not remember everything about it in perfect detail, particularly when Ishamael has been jacking with stuff basically the whole time. I wonder if Ishamael has somehow become separated from his identity as Ba'alzamon so much so that people now believe the latter is the DO as Moiraine and Siuan seem to believe? In any case, I think it's clear that Ishmael is manipulating them into going to the EotW.

 

The Dragon's soul splitting is just silly to me. I get the misdirection with whether the Dragon would be a man or woman, but the soul splitting is taking this concept too far. How would it even work? I don't think it was necessary in order to justify bringing all of the Emond's Field folk to the EotW anyways, the justification could have just remained "well it's gotta be one of you so you're all coming."

 

Tower politics were displayed fairly nicely I think. The coniving between the Ajahs seems apparent, and they're setting up Siuan's future story fairly well I think. Kinda overly emotional in certain scenes from Moiraine, but a most of it seemed appropriate. Particularly when you consider Moiraine and Siuan's future encounters

Spoiler

(or lack thereof)

.

 

The change to the Ways is puzzling to me. There must be some reason why they changed it to be this way, but I don't understand what keeping them more in line with the books would be, and changing it such that they require the OP to open causes potential problems down the line. Design wise, I also miss the vine wall. The lack of horses seems more like it was a pragmatic behind-the-scenes decision, since I think we've been told already that dealing with the horses while making the show was a royal pain in the ass. I'm reminded of the LotR behind the scenes where they spend like an hour talking about how difficult it was to work with horses generally. 

 

12 minutes ago, DermidAjala said:

I have to say the number 1 thing I'd be happy with them changing is the ending to TEOTW haha. It's a massive mess and clearly the weakest of any of the books. It does need to feel properly climactic though - I'll be disappointed if they don't show the levels of ability we're about to start talking about because it really needs to convey that the dragon can actually tear the world apart both literally and figuratively.

 

I agree with this 100%. The ending of EotW was mega confusing, I've always thought that needed some streamlining so this is a great opportunity for that. I think the assault at Tarwin's Gap can basically be completely skipped, it doesn't really add anything to the overall story except that Trollocs sometimes clash with the Borderlands, which we can figure out in other better ways, and Rand is strong with the power, which can also be shown differently.

 

Sad to see Mat have to be written out in such a lame way, but real-life sometimes does this. Hopefully the writers are able to make Mat's hesistation link to something like residual troubles with the dagger or something else like that.

 

Overall I liked the episode alright. It continues to adapt and change many things, some of which make sense, some of which seem necessary, and some of which are puzzling/bad. I'm looking forward to the next two episodes though!

[notpropaganda73]

The things that work well in this episode REALLY work. The things that don't, really really don't work, and they highlight all the problems with the series so far. 

 

For me there is one big big issue with the series, and it's one that has been touched upon by a few posters. The show consistently leaves gaps that we as book readers are filling in with "theories" (for example, all the theories for what happened Mat and Rand in the One Month Later section of ep5). But I sort of wonder how good/effective that is. It's why I'm so interested to know what non-book fans think of the show. There's two examples in this episode alone, but I think it has been littered through the series so far. 

 

1. The big example is Siuan dreaming of the Eye of the World. Is this the first mention of the Eye in the series so far? *We* all know what that means, but why should non book readers care? And "it wasn't explained well in the books/the plan was just as hamfisted in the books" isn't really an excuse here. The show had an opportunity to make that better.

Taking it on it's merits in the show, we can all theorise that this is Ishy laying a trap (and I think that is what's happening) - but will that reveal work for a non-book reader? Have they done enough to explore dreams in WoT, or showing the Ishy/BZ in the EF5 dreams, to really justify that trap in the show? It might work for all of us, but I wonder if it works for those without lore knowledge. 

 

2. The Ways. We know what they are. We know everything about them. We notice the changes to them right away. We know what's happening in the scene with Moiraine and Loial. Do folks without any book knowledge know, or even have an idea, an inkling of what is happening there? 

 

I really liked this episode, but I think those things are issues for the show as a whole. It seems to be caught between telling a story independent of the EotW and telling a story following the main beats of the EotW. The best episode, in my opinion, is when they balanced those two things really well - episode 4. We got a brand new thread with Logain, but surrounding that we got Perrin and Egwene meeting the Tinkers and learning about the Way of the Leaf, and we got Mat, Rand and Thom fleeing the Darkfriends, Thom's story about Owyn, the confrontation with the Fade. On top of that, we got Nynaeve and Lan's relationship developing. 

 

Episode 6 is an example of an episode which didn't get the balance right at all. The Aes Sedai politics stuff is great here imo, it is full of brilliant scenes and the Moiraine/Siuan stuff is honestly fantastic. But it feels as though they suddenly thought "Oh crap yeah we gotta get to the Blight". And that is jarring. 

 

I'll be watching it with my partner later on so will report back on her views. I know some have scoffed at the "many headed Dragon" thing but she literally told me that's what she thought was happening after episode 5 (I posted about it somewhere on the forums) so I think she's gonna go nuts at that scene haha. 

[KakitaOCU]

4 minutes ago, JJLXL said:

  Reveal hidden contents

They totally gutted "The Ways".  The look of the gate itself is totally wrong.  The way to open them is totally wrong. The inside can be left to interpretation, as they became corrupted, fine.  I guess the trollocs had a channeler with them at the gate near Two Rivers? Unless Fades channel now?  They were supposed to be a thing for the Ogiers.  Grown by them in fact!  They are supposed to look like living things and almost come alive when activated. How are Ogier supposed to use them if you need to channel to open them?  Very disappointed with the decisions regarding the Ways.  I hope we find out some concrete answers as to why they're not for the Ogier anymore.  Though I doubt it.  Was initially disappointed with Loil, but I get why they needed to make him this way.  He'd have blown the budget on CGI.  My last gripe with Loil are his hands.  He has very stiff looking doll hands.  Dial back the hand make-up next season and give him back some dexterity.

 

Another gripe, Moiraine said she didn't know Nyn could channel. This is either a lie and they changed Moiraine to Black ajah, or Aes Sedai cannot sense channeling in other women.  Being that nobody in the throne room refuted this, I would say Aes Sedai cannot sense the ability to channel in other women.  Very odd. I don't like this decision and I think it will come back to bite them later.

 

There was another scene where Moiraine arguably lied.  Egwene said "Rand and Mat, are they...?"  Moiraine interrupted, "I have people watching for their arrival..."  We can argue semantics but that is a lie.  They already arrived and she knew it.  If she said "I had people watching for their arrival...", that would simply be a lie of omission, which is fine by the lore.  They need to be more careful with wording regarding Aes Sedai.  It's been pretty good so far.

 

I'm being nit-picky, I know.  But we're laying the ground work this season.  Things have to be VERY specific.

 

I'm still on the fence.  Do I actually like the show or am I forcing myself to like it because I'm so invested in the books.  There is SOOO much hack and slash of plot line so far.  I understand there had to be, but man...way too much so far.   So, so rushed. 

 

Other questions I had.  Does this show make sense to people who haven't read anything from the books?  Do the non-readers feel truly invested in the characters?  So much character building was slashed.

 

 

There are book spoilers intertwined with tv show spoilers, so I hid the whole thing. 

I don't think it's necessarily a problem that Moraine didn't know Nynaeve could channel.  It's something women can sense but it's also something that can be overlooked.  In the books Moraine is not injured after Shadar Logoth and when Nynaeve creeps up on them Moraine doesn't notice for a while before suddenly realizing.  

Combine that with her dismissing Nynaeve for her age right away and maybe she just never bothered to check.  Kind of like hearing a noise outside but being so sure it's just the dog that you don't look out the window.

"I have people watching for their arrival." ("To the white tower since they're supposed to stay at the inn until I call for them.")  Just like last episode with telling Nynaeve "When I find them I will take you to them" despite already knowing where two of them were.

 

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, MasterAblar said:

That’s totally fine you have a right to your own opinion and perspective on the show. I’m simply saying that so far the show has hardly been a failure when you take overall audience reactions. And ultimately that’s what’s gonna matter.

I hope my critiques have come across as personal - vs. that I consider myself to be some kind of media expert, because I don't.  The show is a failure to me for way more than not being like the books.  I hate the movie 'Elf' but anyone else I talk to at least likes it and thinks I'm crazy.  I am very comfortable with the fact that many people here at DM (and beyond) like it and will make the show successful.  Enjoy what RJ2 produced and I will move onto something else.

 

1 hour ago, MasterAblar said:

 

I would also strongly advise people to listen to Loial and stop being hasty. Judging the entire show without seeing the entire season narrative it is trying to build is being unfair in my opinion. 

With so many options out there competing for our time what makes you think that they have an entire season to hook an audience - even a short a one as this is?

[Vambram]

17 minutes ago, DermidAjala said:

 

I have to say the number 1 thing I'd be happy with them changing is the ending to TEOTW haha. It's a massive mess and clearly the weakest of any of the books. It does need to feel properly climactic though - I'll be disappointed if they don't show the levels of ability we're about to start talking about because it really needs to convey that the dragon can actually tear the world apart both literally and figuratively.

 

--

 

On another note and as an outside shot on Liandrin's friend. I'm wondering if it could be Taim. I feel there's very little point making him an is he or isn't he dodgy type character.

 

I am assuming that the ending at the Eye of the World in the tv show will be different than what Robert Jordan wrote. However, I really do feel like  it needs to be similar with an epic climax that gives the majority of the viewers a huge payoff. If episodes 7 and 8 are not very exciting, then I truly doubt that season 2 will be successful.

[Yojimbo]

3 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

I don't think it's necessarily a problem that Moraine didn't know Nynaeve could channel.  It's something women can sense but it's also something that can be overlooked.  In the books Moraine is not injured after Shadar Logoth and when Nynaeve creeps up on them Moraine doesn't notice for a while before suddenly realizing.  

Combine that with her dismissing Nynaeve for her age right away and maybe she just never bothered to check.  Kind of like hearing a noise outside but being so sure it's just the dog that you don't look out the window.

"I have people watching for their arrival." ("To the white tower since they're supposed to stay at the inn until I call for them.")  Just like last episode with telling Nynaeve "When I find them I will take you to them" despite already knowing where two of them were.

 

"no Aes Sedai can stand in the presence of a woman who can touch the source and not know it"

 

 

[Jaysen Gore]

So I think I see the pattern of Rafe’s thinking for season 1, and what that might mean later on. Basically, he has spent most of the first season focused on the second tier of characters, and the world building, because it both creates more depth of the world, and introduces more PoV’s they can use later without a lot of explanation. It also shows the EF5 in a less important light in the beginning. That way, their growth in importance is an evolution, and the weight of the show isn’t on the kids (in story or in production) from the beginning.  It also enables him to delay the start of their character arcs into later seasons, which means they’re less likely to keep retreading the same ground. RJ2’s trading reader disgruntlement in season 1 for stronger seasons 3-8. An investment he’s hoping book fans will tolerate, and non-book fans enjoy more.

 

The execution of the episode itself was very good; laying the Tower politics dynamic bare as a storyline here, instead of book 4 is critical, since it will be off camera for most of the next couple seasons, ad we’ll need Siuan as a PoV character to keep reminding us of it.  Focusing on her gives us a means to see that story evolve while the boys are on the road, and the girls are in training. And the actress deserves the raves she got. The little things matter when you’re more than a queen. Like the touch of a single finger as you banish your lover from your sight.

 

I do agree with a lot of the criticism that there were too many quick jumps to different story beats. Vignettes, instead of a cohesive story, and stuff we would have liked to seen was cut for time. Irritating to say the least. But again, 8 episodes, 8 hours, and I want a lot of time at the Eye of the World.

I loved the healing scene; everything about it worked, especially since I think the episode’s end is going to have to link back to it in some fashion. It has created a massive question around how they get everyone to where they need to be at the end of season 2. And massively increased my fear of losing my favourite world building (The Horn and the Heroes)

 

On the sex topic - I made this point elsewhere; Moiraine and Siuan to me were always more likely than Moiraine and (spoiler) so it didn't bother me at all. And they did use the Windfinder relationship power dynamic, which I thought was very cool. I'm fine with the non-sexual nudity shown here, and the lack of on camera sex. As long as I get my Perrin walk in scene on Rosemund Pike later ?

 

I did feel a couple of scenes were derivative of others (Moiraine’s painting to ??? compares to the Hogwarts one from HP7, and the banishment was effectively discommodation from ST: TNG), but effective all the same

 

Overall, a decent episode. Not great, and the issues with Barney Harris is a big challenge for them to fix, and it will probably take them most of season 2 to do so.

 

[Gothic Flame]

1 minute ago, Yojimbo said:

"no Aes Sedai can stand in the presence of a woman who can touch the source and not know it"

 

 

Isn't that sort of thing dismissed as "from the books?"