tv show spoilers S1E6: The Flame of Tar Valon

[NinjaPowers975]

I think the real reason Mat didn't go is because they lost the actor and had to hack together a scene to explain it. If there's no Barney at all in the next two episodes, then we'll know for sure.

 

I'm hoping they were able to get access to him and grab a few scenes to drop into the next couple of episodes, but I don't think so.

 

I'm sure they've come up with some kind of internal motivation to explain everything without ruining Mat's character. They've had plenty of time to stew on it now, and I can see a lot of ways to make his decision feel relatable.

[WhiteVeils]

I don't see who said it, but I looked and there are male Tower Guards.  We just didn't see them right away.

[ArrylT]

5 minutes ago, dorotea said:

I absolutely HATE what they are doing to Nynaeve in the show. She was not a shrew in the books, but a real person, a strong, and maybe a bit strong-headed woman with her strengths and weaknesses. I loved it that we were let to love her slowly and develop affection for the character over time. In the show she is a symbol of something , you sure can appreciate and approve of symbols and messages but they do not tag at your heartstrings. The show's Nyn so far leaves me absolutely cold, and she was my favorite in the books.

 

I really like the Nynaeve in the show.

 

However Brandon Sanderson in his recent podcast/interview said something that I thought might be interesting to share.

 

He talked about how when he was younger and read the books, he was more Rand than Moiraine - in terms of where they'd butt heads & argue.    But as he grew older he has come since to really appreciate Moiraine, and appreciates her pov from those arguments.   I'm not exactly describing it perfectly but the point I believe he was making was that depending on our age (both physical and maturity wise) how we perceive the characters change.

 

I started off not really liking Nynaeve in the books.   I think the first time she appeared at Baerlon, I was like "why is she butting in".    As time & re-reads occur, I've come to like Nynaeve more.   And now the show has brought me to the point that as I re-read EOTW, I am like "Yay Nynaeve scene"  whereas originally I was like "meh".    Basically the show is helping me become more of a Nynaeve fan.

[FanofKnotai]

28 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

I'd argue they haven't made a change as much as we don't know the significance of his actions within the plot at this point.  In hindsight, he may be the smart one.   Or, his "heroic" struggle may not be at the Eye but with the dagger.   

 

 

 

 

You could be right. I guess we will see. 

[Spiritweaver1]

21 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

 

Well said.

 

Some of the episodes are better digested on their own.   Others are better for binging, as they drive you into wanting to know what is going on next.

 

And a lot will depend on the perspective.   

 

Its really interesting, for me, how Saidar & Saidin play into things.   Saidar is meant to be accepted, whereas Saidin you're supposed to fight for mastery.   

 

So going in with an Saidar perspective is a lot different than a Saidin perspective.

 

One could even say that the Saidin perspective is very akin to in the books, because the more a person tries to force the show to be what they want it to be, the more likely they are going to go mad.

 

Whereas, at least for me, with the Saidar perspective  - which in itself like we saw in Ep1 is not immediate - there will be some rapids & scratches - it could allow a person to be immersed better into the WOT story being told by the show.  

 

Either way, and if I have understood from what I have heard, apart from being full of action, and some nice flashbacks, they will end up being more Rand-centric.   

Oh well said!!!  This has been my experience exactly.  I had this thought myself last night when i was spending far too much of my dwindling store of lifetime pondering this show.   By the way here is a bit of lesser known show lore that will likely come out win a later episode

 

'No one has lived so long as a nattering nabob of negativism that they cannot become a powerful purveyor of positivity'  translated from the only known copy of The Wheel is Squeaking by Spiro Sedai.

[FanofKnotai]

23 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Sure

 

But was it mentioned in more than one of the dreams? 

 

I thought only one, although I could be mistaken

Yes. Remember on the road to Caemlyn Rand woke from under the bush to Mat dreaming and muttering about the things he had seen in his own dreams. Then in Caemlyn Mat spoke about touching the figurine. When they were Baerlon with Thom they worried if Perrin would tell Moiraine about the dreams. Plural. 

[Spiritweaver1]

28 minutes ago, dorotea said:

I absolutely HATE what they are doing to Nynaeve in the show. She was not a shrew in the books, but a real person, a strong, and maybe a bit strong-headed woman with her strengths and weaknesses. I loved it that we were let to love her slowly and develop affection for the character over time. In the show she is a symbol of something , you sure can appreciate and approve of symbols and messages but they do not tag at your heartstrings. The show's Nyn so far leaves me absolutely cold, and she was my favorite in the books.

Actually if you reread TFOH you will see that Nynaeve is both super angry and childish that far into the story.  She loses her moral authority and her previously unquestionable  courage.  It is a key part of her character development in the book that I sure  hope doesn't get lost.  In my initial reading many years ago I figured she would be killed off for sure.   So wrong and so glad to be wrong.  

[TheDreadReader]

32 minutes ago, NinjaPowers975 said:

I think the real reason Mat didn't go is because they lost the actor and had to hack together a scene to explain it. If there's no Barney at all in the next two episodes, then we'll know for sure.

 

I'm hoping they were able to get access to him and grab a few scenes to drop into the next couple of episodes, but I don't think so.

 

I'm sure they've come up with some kind of internal motivation to explain everything without ruining Mat's character. They've had plenty of time to stew on it now, and I can see a lot of ways to make his decision feel relatable.

 

I think this as well.   There is a lot of circumstantial evidence to suggest this.

 

The best way to look at it to me is to judge the show on how they handle the change going forward.  For example, Mat staying behind in Tar Valon opens up plotline opportunities.  What they do with those opportunities mat-ter.

 

 

 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

6 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Actually if you reread TFOH you will see that Nynaeve is both super angry and childish that far into the story.  She loses her moral authority and her previously unquestionable  courage.  It is a key part of her character development in the book that I sure  hope doesn't get lost.  In my initial reading many years ago I figured she would be killed off for sure.   So wrong and so glad to be wrong.  

Self doubt while still doing what is necessary plays well enough in internal monologue but is not likely to come out very well in this medium.

[Ralph]

18 minutes ago, FanofKnotai said:

Yes. Remember on the road to Caemlyn Rand woke from under the bush to Mat dreaming and muttering about the things he had seen in his own dreams. Then in Caemlyn Mat spoke about touching the figurine. When they were Baerlon with Thom they worried if Perrin would tell Moiraine about the dreams. Plural. 

I know many dreams. How many in which the Eye was mentioned? 

[fra85uk]

If it was a problem with the actor, they could Have just let him stay in TV resting after healing...but who knows what happened

[CaddySedai]

Until he decides to let it be known - if ever - then we shall never know. I respect that.

[AusLeviathan]

So if Moiraine's plan is to throw the DR at the Dark One as fast as possible before they've even shown themselves to be the DR, does that mean that the Stone of Tear and Callandor is no longer a thing or are they going to bring it up after they fail at the EOTW and say "guess we should've done that first".

Edited December 12, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[TheChief]

2 hours ago, JaimAybara said:

Why does something have to be a religious text for lore to maintain meaning or have any significance narratively or otherwise? 
Also, it might not be a religious text but much of the lore and even plot was pretty much inspired by every religious text in the world. 

One of my favorite books is Howard’s end, which to me is a deeply meaningful book. I saw an adaptation recently that wasn’t exactly the book. It was fun to see, but I prefer the book. I don’t think I ever even mentioned my opinion to anyone. If the Howard’s end adaptation was imo not the book at all, I’d be disappointed, but wouldn’t think about it much. 
 

So my point was that people seem to be really torn apart by a work of fiction being changed for tv. That seems odd to me- not “who I am”, if you will, and difficult to relate to.

[FanofKnotai]

On 12/11/2021 at 3:24 PM, TheChief said:

and as an aside, I also though the implication that young novices grew out of being lesbians (pillow friends), and if you didn’t you were a dark friend (Liandrin) to be kind of offensive tbh.

Comments like this are very upsetting to me. You act as if RJ wrote about women being “cured” of homosexuality. And this is untrue. In the series he talks about warders liking men. He talks about KINGS liking men. He has a whole plot line about Elaida dating one of the spys sent by the rebels.  Did he put homosexuality (or other sexual preferences) into the BLARING forefront of the books? No. But at that time in the real world, people were not open to live the way they wanted. Luckily times have changed (only in the last relatively few years I might add) so people are allowed to be open and proud of who they are. If you compare his writings to some of the same genre in a period where said genre was almost completely dominated by heterosexual male heroes, he was very progressive with his writing of people’s complex sexual journeys when he chose to mention them. Which admittedly he did not often do. But to say he wrote that they “grew out of being lesbians” is an insult to him. Many women (and men) have experimented with same sex and decided is wasn’t for them. Just like those who experimented and found what made them happy. I think comments like these are inserting negativity where there was none. 

[Chivalry]

1 hour ago, ArrylT said:

 

I really like the Nynaeve in the show.

 

However Brandon Sanderson in his recent podcast/interview said something that I thought might be interesting to share.

 

He talked about how when he was younger and read the books, he was more Rand than Moiraine - in terms of where they'd butt heads & argue.    But as he grew older he has come since to really appreciate Moiraine, and appreciates her pov from those arguments.   I'm not exactly describing it perfectly but the point I believe he was making was that depending on our age (both physical and maturity wise) how we perceive the characters change.

 

I found myself laughing and nodding at this part of the interview. It's amazing what age (and fatherhood, in my case) can do to one's perspective.

 

On a side note, that part of the interview really sold me on Sanderson's attachment to the books. I hope he continues to advocate for the "book fan" perspective in future seasons.

[notpropaganda73]

19 hours ago, Cheetaiean said:

The Siuan Sanche casting is horrible (both in similarity to the book Siuan and in her acting), as is the general garish alien dress of the Amyrlin. Feels like those who approve only say so because she did a good job in some other tv show so has some brand recognition. She's only in the show because Rosamund Pike was friends with her beforehand and apparently Rafe Judkins likes her from somewhere too. 

Comments like this drive me crazy. Why can’t you just say you dislike the casting of Siuan and maybe explain why, without the weird assumption that people who love the casting must have some other reason for loving it.
 

I’ve never seen her in anything else and thought she was great. 

[Gothic Flame]

2 hours ago, TheDreadReader said:

Even in the books This-Mat and That-Mat are different people until the events that create That-Mat happen

Umm...no.

Egwene remembers when a boy was pulled under water in a local swimming spot and no one noticed except him. She then recalled othe events and she realized (with a vague shock) that despite his reputation for being an overall slacker, he can be counted on when it matters the most.

[FanofKnotai]

55 minutes ago, Ralph said:

I know many dreams. How many in which the Eye was mentioned? 

The ones I’m referring to all mention the Eye. Rand’s in Baerlon. The one on the Bayle Domon’s ship. Perrin’s dream before they left the tinkers and Rand’s on the side of the road after Four Kings. All of them mention the Eye. The only ones that don’t are Rand’s first dream at the Winespring Inn and his last dream at The Queen’s Blessing. But you are not the only one to post that it “came of out nowhere” in the EOTW. So others have forgotten  the build up as well ??‍♂️

[TheDreadReader]

Just now, Gothic Flame said:

Umm...no.

Egwene remembers when a boy was pulled under water in a local swimming spot and no one noticed except him. She then recalled othe events and she realized (with a vague shock) that despite his reputation for being an overall slacker, he can be counted on when it matters the most.

 

Which you learn after the events of TEOTW or before?

 

Character development works by progressively revealing information about a character over time. Book fans may know information that is revealed after the events that occur in the show.  Hence, many questions about specific character elements show evidence of a relative recency bias.

 

This-mat = information known about the character at the current time and place in the books/show.

That-mat = information that is known after the current time and place in the books/show.

 

[Gothic Flame]

Just now, TheDreadReader said:

Which you learn after the events of TEOTW or before?

But that illustrates that Mat has never really changed all that much.

There is no "before" or "after."

[TheDreadReader]

Just now, FanofKnotai said:

The ones I’m referring to all mention the Eye. Rand’s in Baerlon. The one on the Bayle Domon’s ship. Perrin’s dream before they left the tinkers and Rand’s on the side of the road after Four Kings. All of them mention the Eye. The only ones that don’t are Rand’s first dream at the Winespring Inn and his last dream at The Queen’s Blessing. But you are not the only one to post that it “came of out nowhere” in the EOTW. So others have forgotten  the build up as well ??‍♂️

 

Perhaps, not forgotten as much as found to be not as sufficiently grounded as other plot elements.

 

Personally, I always thought the jaunt to the eye was more an editorial "James time to wrap this one up" decision.  Hence, why I always thought it came a little out of nowhere.

 

[TheDreadReader]

Just now, Gothic Flame said:

But that illustrates that Mat has never really changed all that much.

There is no "before" or "after."

 

There is always a before and after especially when controlling for proximity to the dagger's influence.

 

 

[Windigo]

8 hours ago, ilovezam said:

 

Is that right? I watched the video and my understanding was that he'd put LOTR right in the middle of the spectrum, and WoT between LOTR and The Shining. He even straight up said "75%" at one point.

 

I'm still mostly enjoying the show at this point, but we've gotten 3 out of 6 episodes where it doesn't follow the books for the most part. Change doesn't automatically mean bad since Ep 4 was amazing IMO, but I really struggled with 5, and even more so with 6.

 

I cannot imagine it being considered to be on the same tier as LOTR with regards to faithfulness to source material

LoTR movies were quite different from the books in many ways.   
From changing ages, Frodo from being in his 50's for most of the books,  to being much younger, Sam from an employee to a friend!  Many other changes to personalities, cutting and changing many of the story arcs, adding new ones, I think that so many have not read the Tolkien books ( or even ASoiaF) as often as they have series like WoT, so did not notice how many changed there were. 
I am an big re-reader, but while I re-read WoT, along with other series I enjoy every year, I only re-read ASoiaF before a new book came out, and Tolkien a dozen or so times. 

LoTR changes:  https://www.theonering.com/complete-list-of-film-changes/the-fellowship-of-the-ring/   
 

 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Windigo

[jh557]

1 hour ago, AusLeviathan said:

So if Moiraine's plan is to throw the DR at the Dark One as fast as possible before they've even shown themselves to be the DR, does that mean that the Stone of Tear and Callandor is no longer a thing or are they going to bring it up after they fail at the EOTW and say "guess we should've done that first".

They literally go to The Eye in the book based off Ishy dreams, the info that Loial provided about the Aiel's dying story, and just because they were trapped in Caemlyn. I get that the show has made a mistake/large deviation of stating that the DO is sealed at The Eye, but them going to The Eye being next to clueless about things is not really that different. And I know it felt super rushed in the show, but it was the third book when Ishy died that everybody was like wow that wasn't actually the DO and was just a Foresaken.