tv show spoilers S1E6: The Flame of Tar Valon

[WhiteVeils]

It took me a long time to figure Mat's leaving out in the show, but I finally put the pieces together. Granted....they don't make it easy within the episode.

Every bit of marketing on Mat during the runup to the show describes him as being afraid of 'going bad'...being a prick like his father, a drunk like his mother.  In the advertising for Ep 6, it is about Mat facing the 'darkness inside himself.

When we hear that phrase, we assume that it means the one facing the darkness will face it down and decide that they /will/ be the hero they are expected to be. But Mat, as he says in the books over and over, is "no bloody hero".  He has looked at the darkness inside himself and realized, at least for the moment, that he would cave to the evil inside him. He /was/ caving to the evil inside him from the dagger. He would fall.

He knows, or has learned two things about the Dragon.  He knows that the Dragon will either defeat the Dark One, OR join them.
AND he knows that Moiraine did not answer Egwene's question "What happens to those who aren't the Dragon?"  
Lacking that answer...Egwene goes anyway, because she is ridiculously brave, the bravest of all of them.  Rand goes because Egwene does.  Perrin goes because he doesn't care if he lives or dies anyway, really, after Layla.  And Nynaeve goes because she doesn't believe Moiraine and wants to protect the EF5 from her.  But Mat is savvy and untrusting enough to know those who aren't the Dragon will likely die.
So...if he IS the Dragon, Mat believes he would join the Dark One.  And if he is NOT the Dragon, he would die and there's nothing anyone could do about it.  

Mat didn't go to save the world from himself.

And he didn't say anything to anyone else, because he doesn't believe they would join with the Dark One, if they were the Dragon.

My working theory, anyway.

Edited December 12, 2021 by WhiteVeils

[FanofKnotai]

16 hours ago, swollymammoth said:

Only if that consequence ends up in a massive mistake, like Lan leading the party into Shadar Logoth against Moiraine's wishes. 

This is one of the biggest declines of this adaptation IMO. They seem to want to make the women way more important than the men. In WOT both men and women were crucial. Even to the very small point of making Ila the leader of the Tinkers instead of Raen. Who cares who leads the Tinkers? So why change it?! It’s like they think RJ wrote weak women and they need to fix it for today’s standards. But that is supremely untrue. The books would not have been nearly as good as they were without the female characters the way he wrote them. Strong, smart, powerful, resilient, resourceful, cunning, ruthless, nurturing, wise… I could go on. But again, I ask, why change it? Why make the men so much less than the women? It just doesn’t make sense to me. 

[JaimAybara]

2 minutes ago, TheChief said:

Hmmm… I kind of doubt that. Writing successfully for tv is a skill that I believe very few wot readers have, which is what is needed to adapt the story to tv. Imho, the changes are being made for payoff in a tv format down the road. Heaps of lore doesn’t make for compelling tv, I’m afraid. 
 

honestly I don’t understand the devotion to “lore”. I mean, it’s not a religious text. 

Why does something have to be a religious text for lore to maintain meaning or have any significance narratively or otherwise? 
Also, it might not be a religious text but much of the lore and even plot was pretty much inspired by every religious text in the world. 

[jh557]

8 hours ago, Ralph said:

The reason they have to introduce other non-Dragons dying at the battle BTW Dragon and "DO" is so they can't take anyone else. 

 

They then have to justify killing four out of five. It is pretty clear M&S would do that anyway, but suggesting the many heads makes it more palatable (to themselves and/or the viewers). 

They don't need to introduce that people could die. There have been people dying every single episode. And it is a battle where it is expected that people would die. Moiraine's line about dying if getting between the DO and the Dragon was 2 fold to me- to be dramatic (neither good or bad just trying to give gravitas to the situation for watchers) and so she could give the line of "I will kill them myself  before..." which I felt was done better in the books since she actually says it to the EF folk (you can like it better in this format as it still gets the point across) 

 

They don't need more reasons not to take anybody else. They will be traveling by the Ways- assumed dangerous and implied strongly at the end of the show. Travel through the Blight again dangerous and would only attract more creatures with a bigger group. Also can't take another Aes Sedai because they can't trust any other Aes Sedai because what if they disagree with what the plan is and Moiraine and Siuan are stilled or they could accidently tell somebody who is BA or a darkfriend. 

 

They need to take all of the EF5 because they don't known for certain who the Dragon is thus you have to take the risk of all of them to make sure that you have the right one there. I get justifying it to themselves and/or viewers, but it does not need to be many headed to do this. And you might find the many heads palatable but it is literally the part that I have cringed at every time it has come out of somebody's mouth because it was and is unnecessary as they already set up that it could be any one of the 5, male or female, without needing to introduce that it is all of them. I think the writers thought this would go over well, and maybe for some it has, but for me it has not. 

[JenniferL]

18 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

It took me a long time to figure Mat's leaving out in the show, but I finally put the pieces together. Granted....they don't make it easy within the episode.

Every bit of marketing on Mat during the runup to the show describes him as being afraid of 'going bad'...being a prick like his father, a drunk like his mother.  In the advertising for Ep 6, it is about Mat facing the 'darkness inside himself.

When we hear that phrase, we assume that it means the one facing the darkness will face it down and decide that they /will/ be the hero they are expected to be. But Mat, as he says in the books over and over, is "no bloody hero".  He has looked at the darkness inside himself and realized, at least for the moment, that he would cave to the evil inside him. He /was/ caving to the evil inside him from the dagger. He would fall.

He knows, or has learned two things about the Dragon.  He knows that the Dragon will either defeat the Dark One, OR join them.
AND he knows that Moiraine did not answer Egwene's question "What happens to those who aren't the Dragon?"  
Lacking that answer...Egwene goes anyway, because she is ridiculously brave, the bravest of all of them.  Rand goes because Egwene does.  Perrin goes because he doesn't care if he lives or dies anyway, really, after Layla.  And Nynaeve goes because she doesn't believe Moiraine and wants to protect the EF5 from her.  But Mat is savvy and untrusting enough to know those who aren't the Dragon will likely die.
So...if he IS the Dragon, Mat believes he would join the Dark One.  And if he is NOT the Dragon, he would die and there's nothing anyone could do about it.  

Mat didn't go to save the world from himself.

And he didn't say anything to anyone else, because he doesn't believe they would join with the Dark One, if they were the Dragon.

My working theory, anyway.

I really like this idea. Well done. 
 

Of course, now I’m going to be disappointed when it doesn’t happen this way. ??‍♀️

[Ralph]

1 hour ago, FanofKnotai said:

“I’m coming, Mat thought as he ran after the thief-taker. I’ll get you out or die! I promise it!”

 

This Mat would never have stayed behind. 

If he believed her

[Skipp]

1 hour ago, NetNightmare said:

Ok I did a rewatch with wife and son both of them didn't read the books (yet bought son EotW as Christmas  gift), they did enjoy the show, wife it's practically addicted, both of them though asked me

 

- Whats the purpose of Loial (and also what the heck he is)

- Who is the DR

 

So I would say the misdirection in my case did work none of them pointed toward Rand, on the bad side Loial doesn't have a "reason" to be there, though son love it heh.

 

Personally I still think that for me this is the best episode so far, even though I had time to think about some things that really have no sense to me.

 

- Tar Valon Guards, as someone pointed out, at least for now there is only women as guards and all of them are unarmed ... this is frankly odd especially if you pair it with the Amyrlin statement that Logain is armless in the Tower... well for sure he is harmless to an AS but what about to a unarmed guard ?? and why anyway guards should be unarmed and dressed like they are about to take a bath is beyond me..

 

- Ter angreal of Moraine and Siuan, is it Traveling ? is it TAR ? I don't know ... nonetheless ..isn't strange Moraine didn't bring it with her so she could keep communicating with Siuan (and do other I guess) ?? someone mentioned that maybe they cannot be moved cause part of the wall... well in that case... since nobody today knows how to make more ... are those "casually" the only rooms equipped ?? the alternative is actually worse ...

I am thinking we will see Loial's purpose next episode.

 

As for the Tower Guards we see some as Moiraine as she is leaving the city after being exiled.  These guards are armed and have a lightly different uniform then the Attendants that brought in Logain.  One of the armed guards is a man.

[TheDreadReader]

1 hour ago, FanofKnotai said:

“I’m coming, Mat thought as he ran after the thief-taker. I’ll get you out or die! I promise it!”

 

This Mat would never have stayed behind. 

 

Even in the books This-Mat and That-Mat are different people until the events that create That-Mat happen.

 

It is one of the challenges of having finished the overall series.  There was the Mat of the early books and the Mat of the later books.  Readers look back having experienced later book Mat and that colors their understanding of early book Mat.  It can be jarring then to see early Mat on screen.

 

 

 

[FanofKnotai]

19 hours ago, Andromedus said:

Man I'm so glad they are changing things, I loved this ep.

 

I do wish they'd have given us 10 eps, my main qualms with the show still are the rushed parts and some of the editing, but to be fair, the EOTW bit comes out of nowhere in the books as well.  I think RJ was obviously finding his way in this book, show is doing what it can with some of weaker bits and also not trying to look like a fellowship of the ring rip off quest

 

- The acting is getting better and better.  Loial's hair bothers me but otherwise love the character, can't wait to see him get angry.

 

- Nynaeve is SO MUCH BETTER in the show, thank you for not making her out to be a shrew.

 

- One of RJ's greatest weaknesses was how he wrote women, show is rectifying that ??

 

- To non-readers I would imagine the Dragon identity should be getting obvious but my wife still thinks it's another character and I don't want to spoil it

 

- Excited to see the Ways

 

- Wondering if we will get "Balthagnor" at the Eye instead of the gruesome twosome

 

- Seanchan hint with the ships was nicely done

 

I wish these last two episodes were 2 hours each but pumped to see how they end season 1!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

- One of RJ's greatest weaknesses was how he wrote women, show is rectifying that ??

Please elaborate on this because I wholeheartedly disagree. 

[NinjaPowers975]

5 hours ago, ilovezam said:

 

Is that right? I watched the video and my understanding was that he'd put LOTR right in the middle of the spectrum, and WoT between LOTR and The Shining. He even straight up said "75%" at one point.

 

I'm still mostly enjoying the show at this point, but we've gotten 3 out of 6 episodes where it doesn't follow the books for the most part. Change doesn't automatically mean bad since Ep 4 was amazing IMO, but I really struggled with 5, and even more so with 6.

 

I cannot imagine it being considered to be on the same tier as LOTR with regards to faithfulness to source material

 

I totally agree with this take. As of episode 6, I would put this a little further from the source material than LOTR.

 

I've been mostly enjoying the changes so far, just because I like not knowing exactly what will happen next, and I see the TV WOT universe and the book WOT universe as separate, but related, things. 

 

I loved episodes 4 and 5, but had some major issues with the most recent episode, and am eager for them to put the main plot back in the driver's seat again. I feel like most of the changes in the last three episodes derive from the decision to make Moiraine the primary protagonist for this season. To get to the heart of her character, they have to establish a lot about the White Tower and her place in it. Lots of stuff that isn't explored at all in book 1.

 

Episode 6 is kind of the culmination of that, and I think it served its purpose extremely well. It defines Moiraine, but at the unfortunate expense of shoving everything else completely to the side for an entire episode. I think I would've appreciated it a lot more in a binge format where I could immediately move on to the next main story beat.

Edited December 12, 2021 by NinjaPowers975

[FanofKnotai]

8 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

Even in the books This-Mat and That-Mat are different people until the events that create That-Mat happen.

 

It is one of the challenges of having finished the overall series.  There was the Mat of the early books and the Mat of the later books.  Readers look back having experienced later book Mat and that colors their understanding of early book Mat.  It can be jarring then to see early Mat on screen.

 

 

 

I believe you may have forgotten a story told by Nynaeve I think about “early Mat”. I forget who she was talking to when she told them the story of how someone in EF tricked Mat into thinking they were drowning only to laugh at him when he rushed to save them. Mat swore he’d never be a hero again and they could just drown for all he cared.  Then later in the same story, that same person actually was drowning and Mat, without thought, jumped in to save them again. This was Mat when he was young before leaving EF. So to use term “early Mat” to justify this change is incorrect. He has always been who he is. The only thing that changed about the core of his character is his luck?. Try again. ?

[TheDreadReader]

1 minute ago, FanofKnotai said:

I believe you may have forgotten a story told by Nynaeve I think about “early Mat”. I forget who she was talking to when she told them the story of how someone in EF tricked Mat into thinking they were drowning only to laugh at him when he rushed to save them. Mat swore he’d never be a hero again and they could just drown for all he cared.  Then later in the same story, that same person actually was drowning and Mat, without thought, jumped in to save them again. This was Mat when he was young before leaving EF. So to use term “early Mat” to justify this change is incorrect. He has always been who he is. The only thing that changed about the core of his character is his luck?. Try again. ?

 

Not forgetting anything. ?

 

When the story is told is as important as when the story is said to have happened.  That is a natural consequence of how author's progressively write stories.

 

[FanofKnotai]

34 minutes ago, Ralph said:

If he believed her

? Ok. I can see that. In the show the EOTW came around so suddenly, maybe he believes it’s just more Aes Sedai puppeteering. In the books they all had had so many dreams with Ba’alzamon mentioning it that they knew they had to go. ??

[ArrylT]

16 hours ago, Therese Sedai said:

What’s wrong with her acting? I thought she did a good job even though I’ve never seen her in anything else before. 

 

For anyone unaware - she was nominated for a supporting Oscar for her role in Hotel Rwanda.   She has also received nominations for Golden Globes & BAFTA and won a Tony and been given Orders of the British Empire.  

Edited December 12, 2021 by ArrylT

[FanofKnotai]

3 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

Not forgetting anything. ?

 

When the story is told is as important as when the story is said to have happened.  That is a natural consequence of how author's progressively write stories.

 

But that still doesn’t change the fact that when he was young he still did the right thing even if he didn’t want to. Regardless of when we find out about it. The show has him staying behind when he would not have is all I’m saying. Besides the casting issue’s I’ve heard some people suggest, I can’t see why they made this change. 

[Wraith235]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

Lacking that answer...Egwene goes anyway, because she believes she is the DR, 

fixed that for you

[Ralph]

6 minutes ago, FanofKnotai said:

? Ok. I can see that. In the show the EOTW came around so suddenly, maybe he believes it’s just more Aes Sedai puppeteering. In the books they all had had so many dreams with Ba’alzamon mentioning it that they knew they had to go. ??

One dream I think. Though maybe that is one each

 

Plus the Aiel and Jain

 

And then it was also to manoeuvre them there deliberately 

[TheDreadReader]

1 minute ago, FanofKnotai said:

But that still doesn’t change the fact that when he was young he still did the right thing even if he didn’t want to. Regardless of when we find out about it. The show has him staying behind when he would not have is all I’m saying. Besides the casting issue’s I’ve heard some people suggest, I can’t see why they made this change. 

 

I'd argue they haven't made a change as much as we don't know the significance of his actions within the plot at this point.  In hindsight, he may be the smart one.   Or, his "heroic" struggle may not be at the Eye but with the dagger.   

 

 

 

 

[FanofKnotai]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

It took me a long time to figure Mat's leaving out in the show, but I finally put the pieces together. Granted....they don't make it easy within the episode.

Every bit of marketing on Mat during the runup to the show describes him as being afraid of 'going bad'...being a prick like his father, a drunk like his mother.  In the advertising for Ep 6, it is about Mat facing the 'darkness inside himself.

When we hear that phrase, we assume that it means the one facing the darkness will face it down and decide that they /will/ be the hero they are expected to be. But Mat, as he says in the books over and over, is "no bloody hero".  He has looked at the darkness inside himself and realized, at least for the moment, that he would cave to the evil inside him. He /was/ caving to the evil inside him from the dagger. He would fall.

He knows, or has learned two things about the Dragon.  He knows that the Dragon will either defeat the Dark One, OR join them.
AND he knows that Moiraine did not answer Egwene's question "What happens to those who aren't the Dragon?"  
Lacking that answer...Egwene goes anyway, because she is ridiculously brave, the bravest of all of them.  Rand goes because Egwene does.  Perrin goes because he doesn't care if he lives or dies anyway, really, after Layla.  And Nynaeve goes because she doesn't believe Moiraine and wants to protect the EF5 from her.  But Mat is savvy and untrusting enough to know those who aren't the Dragon will likely die.
So...if he IS the Dragon, Mat believes he would join the Dark One.  And if he is NOT the Dragon, he would die and there's nothing anyone could do about it.  

Mat didn't go to save the world from himself.

And he didn't say anything to anyone else, because he doesn't believe they would join with the Dark One, if they were the Dragon.

My working theory, anyway.

This is an explanation I can get behind. Hopefully you are right. 

[FanofKnotai]

1 minute ago, Ralph said:

One dream I think. Though maybe that is one each

 

Plus the Aiel and Jain

 

And then it was also to manoeuvre them there deliberately 

Remember that even though RJ only wrote the dreams from Rand and Perrins POV they all had the same dreams each time. Remember them talking to each other about the slight differences. Like Mat picking up his miniature, where Rand almost did, but ended up knocking it off the table. So where we are shown, I think, 4 dreams (EF, the road to Caemlyn, the Tinker caravan and Caemlyn) that means they all had those same 4 dreams. 

[Spiritweaver1]

17 hours ago, chri5 said:

You both realize Moiraine opened the Waygate in Caemlyn in the books, right?  Not Loial or anyone else with a penis.

She did however, she did it by using the avendsora leaf keys not the one power.  That was the  problem with this scene in my book.  It is going to create issues later mark my words when non channelers have to open the ways.    

[ArrylT]

12 minutes ago, NinjaPowers975 said:

 

I totally agree with this take. As of episode 6, I would put this a little further from the source material than LOTR.

 

I've been mostly enjoying the changes so far, just because I like not knowing exactly what will happen next, and I see the TV WOT universe and the book WOT universe as separate, but related, things. 

 

I did have some major issues with the most recent episode, and am eager for them to put the main plot back in the driver's seat again. I feel like most of the changes in the last three episodes derive from the decision to make Moiraine the primary protagonist for this season. To get to the heart of her character, they have to establish a lot about the White Tower and her place in it. Lots of stuff that isn't explored at all in book 1.

 

Episode six is kind of the culmination of that, and I think it served its purpose extremely well. It defines Moiraine, but at the unfortunate expense of shoving everything else to the side almost entirely for an entire episode. I think I would've appreciated it a lot more in a binge format where I could immediately move on to the next main story beat.

 

Well said.

 

Some of the episodes are better digested on their own.   Others are better for binging, as they drive you into wanting to know what is going on next.

 

And a lot will depend on the perspective.   

 

Its really interesting, for me, how Saidar & Saidin play into things.   Saidar is meant to be accepted, whereas Saidin you're supposed to fight for mastery.   

 

So going in with an Saidar perspective is a lot different than a Saidin perspective.

 

One could even say that the Saidin perspective is very akin to in the books, because the more a person tries to force the show to be what they want it to be, the more likely they are going to go mad.

 

Whereas, at least for me, with the Saidar perspective  - which in itself like we saw in Ep1 is not immediate - there will be some rapids & scratches - it could allow a person to be immersed better into the WOT story being told by the show.  

 

Either way, and if I have understood from what I have heard, apart from being full of action, and some nice flashbacks, they will end up being more Rand-centric.   

[dorotea]

20 hours ago, Andromedus said:

- Nynaeve is SO MUCH BETTER in the show, thank you for not making her out to be a shrew.

 

- One of RJ's greatest weaknesses was how he wrote women, show is rectifying that

I absolutely HATE what they are doing to Nynaeve in the show. She was not a shrew in the books, but a real person, a strong, and maybe a bit strong-headed woman with her strengths and weaknesses. I loved it that we were let to love her slowly and develop affection for the character over time. In the show she is a symbol of something , you sure can appreciate and approve of symbols and messages but they do not tag at your heartstrings. The show's Nyn so far leaves me absolutely cold, and she was my favorite in the books.

[Ralph]

3 minutes ago, FanofKnotai said:

Remember that even though RJ only wrote the dreams from Rand and Perrins POV they all had the same dreams each time. Remember them talking to each other about the slight differences. Like Mat picking up his miniature, where Rand almost did, but ended up knocking it off the table. So where we are shown, I think, 4 dreams (EF, the road to Caemlyn, the Tinker caravan and Caemlyn) that means they all had those same 4 dreams. 

Sure

 

But was it mentioned in more than one of the dreams? 

 

I thought only one, although I could be mistaken

[Sabio]

In the book Nyn was a bully that shouted at people to get her way and it was said she hit someone with a stick.  She bullied and insulted those who traveled with her.